[6:00pm] GaborHojtsy: hey, hi everybody, who is here for the D8MI meeting?
[6:01pm] weal: me!
[6:01pm] Druplicon: http://drupal.org/project/me Provides shortcut paths to current user's pages, eg user/me, blog/me, user/me/edit, tracker/me etc.
[6:02pm] GaborHojtsy: weal: hi, I have not seen you being active recently, what's up?
[6:02pm] weal: GaborHojtsy: I've been periodically checking out the code and trying to figure out what is going on with the D8 stuff but I'm still not feeling very confident with it
[6:02pm] plach: here I am
[6:04pm] GaborHojtsy: weal: yeah, although fago et. al. are working to change the field/property API, so at this point it might be best to skip to something else for now, and then come back later to this IMHO
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[6:04pm] GaborHojtsy: plach: hi! what do you think of the D7 language API improvements pushed to D8 by David?
[6:06pm] weal: GaborHojtsy: that sounds ok to me.  I'm still trying to use a broken computer to do this stuff... maybe my new laptop will arrive this century
[6:07pm] plach: GaborHojtsy: I think they are good, ET is really improving at a quick pace now
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[6:08pm] plach: GaborHojtsy: I'll release a new alpha with the new UI as soon as a couple of issue are fixed
[6:08pm] plach: GaborHojtsy: hopefully a beta is not too far away http://drupal.org/node/1624830
[6:08pm] Druplicon: http://drupal.org/node/1624830 => [META] Roadmap for a stable release of Entity Translation => Entity Translation, Base system, normal, active, 7 comments, 1 IRC mention
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[6:09pm] GaborHojtsy: plach: oh, great
[6:09pm] plach: GaborHojtsy: it's a pity that @fago's not here because it would be nice to discuss the D( stuff with hime
[6:09pm] GaborHojtsy: weal: ha, so you'd not be able to do patch testing, etc. either?
[6:09pm] GaborHojtsy: plach: he just landed a big sponsorship for his work, so he should hopefully be around more
[6:10pm] plach: GaborHojtsy: not sure about a couple of points in his latest reviews
[6:10pm] plach: GaborHojtsy: wonderful
[6:10pm] GaborHojtsy: plach: well, he is sponsored for property api work, which is slightly overlapping with our work but not that much (in my understanding)
[6:10pm] GaborHojtsy: plach: but I hope then he'll have more free time
[6:11pm] plach: GaborHojtsy: I feel that the entity forms and entity test ML properties are mostly done
[6:11pm] plach: GaborHojtsy: I'd like to attack another issue now
[6:11pm] GaborHojtsy: plach: yeah  if only fago would let those go in
[6:11pm] plach: GaborHojtsy: ML EFQs sounds as a natural choice
[6:12pm] GaborHojtsy: plach: yeah, those sound great to do next
[6:12pm] plach: GaborHojtsy: yeah, but in the mean time I can work on something else
[6:12pm] weal:  GaborHojtsy: I've been using a laptop with a cracked screen, it sorta works, but it is annoying...
[6:12pm] plach: GaborHojtsy: I'll set-up a sandbox and commit all those stuff so we can move on
[6:12pm] GaborHojtsy: plach: I can give you access to the D8MI sandbox if that helps
[6:13pm] plach: GaborHojtsy: I though we didn't have an official one
[6:13pm] plach: GaborHojtsy: that would be great
[6:13pm] GaborHojtsy: plach: http://drupal.org/node/1624820 granted
[6:13pm] Druplicon: http://drupal.org/node/1624820 => Gábor Hojtsy's sandbox: Drupal 8 Multilingual Initiative sandbox => 0 comments, 3 IRC mentions
[6:13pm] GaborHojtsy: penyaskito, attiks and ClemensTolboom used it actively in Barcelona
[6:13pm] plach: GaborHojtsy: I'd like to start also to work on form language, that shouldn't be a big deal
[6:14pm] GaborHojtsy: and let me take this moment to give them a HUGE HUGE shout-out for having their patch committed
[6:14pm] GaborHojtsy: attiks++
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[6:14pm] GaborHojtsy: penyaskito++
[6:14pm] GaborHojtsy: ClemensTolboom++
[6:14pm] penyaskito: GaborHojtsy,
[6:14pm] plach: great work guys!
[6:14pm] GaborHojtsy: although I think they totally burnt out and would love to have a vacation now
[6:15pm] penyaskito: GaborHojtsy, not really
[6:15pm] penyaskito: I just finished moving on a new home, so I think that I'll be back soon
[6:15pm] penyaskito: btw I'd like to ask what's next, I was thinking about the batch PO importing but don't know if anything with a higher priority is available to work on
[6:16pm] GaborHojtsy: penyaskito: batch .po importing would be great if you are not bored of this area yet
[6:16pm] plach: GaborHojtsy: I'd like to start planning the EFQ work if you don't have other things to talk about
[6:16pm] GaborHojtsy: penyaskito: there were lots of code in the sandbox that can be resurrected and rerolled into the current setup
[6:17pm] GaborHojtsy: plach: sure, good plan  is your signup info on the google sheet correct (and your business partner?)
[6:18pm] plach: GaborHojtsy: let me check
[6:18pm] plach: GaborHojtsy: do you have the link at hand?
[6:18pm] GaborHojtsy: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aqxsrc5BVkagdEhXX3lKQXA2amp1NTlNY3BNREhpeWc#gid=0
[6:20pm] plach: GaborHojtsy: yes, it's correct
[6:21pm] GaborHojtsy: plach: cool, hack away then
[6:21pm] GaborHojtsy: btw we will have this place for the Munich sprint on both weekends: http://film.coop/
[6:21pm] GaborHojtsy: on weekdays, we'll have space in the Drupalcon venue
[6:22pm] GaborHojtsy: I'll send around email about this to attendees
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[6:23pm] penyaskito: GaborHojtsy, I'll work on that
[6:23pm] plach: sounds good
[6:23pm] penyaskito: btw, I have to go to the local meeting, c u later!  http://www.slideshare.net/penyaskito/contributing-to-drupal-13828453
[6:24pm] andypost: hi, glad to join to sprint in Munich if I come
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[6:26pm] GaborHojtsy: andypost: hey, that sounds fantastic
[6:26pm] GaborHojtsy: andypost: are you only avail for the Friday sprint day on Drupalcon or any of the other extended sprint days?
[6:26pm] GaborHojtsy: ú
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[6:29pm] GaborHojtsy: also anybody else here to talk about stuff?
[6:29pm] colan joined the chat room.
[6:29pm] GaborHojtsy: I need people to help with node access, search multilingual, localization update build-in to core, etc
[6:30pm] weal: random question - is anyone working on entity translation UI?
[6:30pm] weal: i'm thinking of coding a d7 module to put translatble fields all on one page
[6:31pm] weal: to eliminate the "translate" tab for multilingual editors
[6:31pm] plach: weal: nothing like that at the moment
[6:31pm] plach: is in the woorks
[6:31pm] weal: cool
[6:31pm] plach: but we have a feature request for that
[6:32pm] plach: GaborHojtsy:  I didn't spend much time thinking about the EFQ issue, I guess we could start defining which are the basic behaviors we expect, right?
[6:32pm] weal: ok.  if i do this in d7, will it have an issue with adding a multilanguage field?  i cannot think of a reason why it would, but i have memories of d6 hell...
[6:33pm] weal: ideally i would like to work on d8 and d7 versions of a single-page multilingual form
[6:33pm] weal: i have 2-3 projects that will benefit from this
[6:34pm] plach: weal: I don't think the base entity translation UI is going to work that way
[6:34pm] weal: plach: ok, good to know
[6:34pm] plach: weal: did you see http://drupal.org/node/1282018
[6:34pm] Druplicon: http://drupal.org/node/1282018 => Improve UX of language-aware entity forms => Entity Translation, User interface, major, active, 116 comments, 12 IRC mentions
[6:34pm] plach: ?
[6:34pm] weal: ps. i've been using the feeds_et module in d7 and it is *awesome*
[6:34pm] andypost: GaborHojtsy: I got a plane 19 evening and 25 back, so mostly all days are available but still have troubles with visa
[6:34pm] plach: weal: glad to hear that
[6:35pm] GaborHojtsy: andypost: oh, visa
[6:35pm] weal: plach: yes, I've seen that node
[6:35pm] GaborHojtsy: andypost: so maybe you want to add MAYBE to the sheet so we know
[6:35pm] GaborHojtsy: andypost: to the appropriate days
[6:36pm] GaborHojtsy: andypost: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aqxsrc5BVkagdEhXX3lKQXA2amp1NTlNY3BNREhpeWc#gid=0
[6:36pm] GaborHojtsy: andypost: did you get an invitation letter from Drupalcon?
[6:36pm] weal: plach: for canadian sites we usually have EN and FR only, and for many clients it is the same person for both languages, so they just want to do input for both at the same time
[6:36pm] GaborHojtsy: andypost: need any help with that?
[6:36pm] GaborHojtsy: plach: yeah (define EFQ expectations)
[6:36pm] weal: plach: I believe there is a d6 module that does this, but I do not think it is public (some canadian govt sites use it) - it is basically two forms on one page
[6:37pm] andypost: GaborHojtsy: I got invitation but Germany embosy is overloaded in Moscow
[6:37pm] GaborHojtsy: andypost: oh, well, you have some time constraints
[6:39pm] GaborHojtsy: andypost: wishing the best
[6:39pm] andypost: GaborHojtsy: I'm waiting 45 days to visit embasy, and now meeting pointed at 13aug and I still not sure that they give me a visa before my plane 19
[6:40pm] plach: GaborHojtsy: I ain't sure the behavior laid out for conditions in the ML properties patch is 100% correct
[6:41pm] plach: GaborHojtsy: do you think it's ok that an EFQ by default always sets property conditions in the default langauge?
[6:42pm] plach: GaborHojtsy: in many situations the current language would make more sense to me
[6:42pm] andypost: plach: is there any reason to set any filters by default in EFQ
[6:43pm] plach: andypost: well, we are experimenting with ml properties in http://drupal.org/node/1658712
[6:43pm] Druplicon: http://drupal.org/node/1658712 => Refactor test_entity schema to be multilingual => Drupal core, entity system, major, needs review, 31 comments, 5 IRC mentions
[6:44pm] GaborHojtsy: plach: should apply the same conditions as for properties, no?
[6:44pm] GaborHojtsy: plach: as for fields
[6:44pm] plach: andypost: and fago felt strongly that the optional proprty conditions should apply to the default language only if not explicitly specified otherwise
[6:45pm] GaborHojtsy: plach: my thinking is that properties will become fields anyway sooner or later (maybe D9 maybe later
[6:45pm] plach: GaborHojtsy: atm there is no language condition applied for fields  by default, as andypost is suggesting
[6:45pm] GaborHojtsy: plach: so moving there to be more standard and cross-compatible is our path
[6:46pm] plach: GaborHojtsy: we have field language meta conditions, we could introduce property langauge meta conditions, but furthering this distnction between proprties and fields does not sound good to me
[6:47pm] GaborHojtsy: plach: make it "language meta conditions" instead of qualifying what they apply to?
[6:47pm] plach: GaborHojtsy: maybe we could have a unique language meta condition that internally (temporarily) would distinguish between properties and fields
[6:47pm] plach: yes, that
[6:48pm] plach: GaborHojtsy: there is nothing more we would need to at that level I guess
[6:48pm] plach: * to do
[6:48pm] GaborHojtsy: plach: cool
[6:49pm] andypost: otoh we need 2 conditions anyway - for entity langcode and for field langcode anyway for now
[6:50pm] plach: GaborHojtsy: I don't think EFQs are very much used in core at the moment, do you think the issue should also start moving things to EFQs or should we left that to VDC?
[6:50pm] GaborHojtsy: plach: core will need to do that if they want to support multilingual properties
[6:50pm] plach: andypost: yes, we need a way to do both
[6:50pm] GaborHojtsy: plach: EFQ is the only way so far that we can build queries in core
[6:50pm] plach: andypost: not sure if we need different methods
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[6:51pm] andypost: plach: but how to detect a condition target if method the same?
[6:52pm] GaborHojtsy: plach: I think just that conversion is a massive undertaking in itself
[6:53pm] plach: andypost: currently EFQ has an entityCondition that could also be used to specify the entity language, OTOH that could also be a propertyCondition, fago considers the main entity language a property so that could staty, I'm not really sure how things will evolve in that sense
[6:54pm] plach: * stay
[6:55pm] plach: GaborHojtsy: no doubt, but perhaps we should avoid another elephant issue like the entity forms one
[6:55pm] GaborHojtsy: plach: right, I don't think we should do everything in one issue
[6:55pm] andypost: plach: yes, and it works now. I'm not sure we need to implement other methods to confuse a developer more then now
[6:56pm] GaborHojtsy: plach: we need at least test coverage for the test_entity plenty to prove it works
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[6:56pm] plach: GaborHojtsy: do you mean adding test entity listings?
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[6:57pm] plach: GaborHojtsy: however there will surely be performance penalties in the conversion from straight DBTNG queries to EFQ + entity_load_multiple
[6:57pm] plach: GaborHojtsy: they might not be relevant for a single conversion
[6:58pm] plach: GaborHojtsy: but in the total I'm pretty sure the difference will be measurable
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[6:59pm] plach: GaborHojtsy: I think this work should fall under the Entity API/Storage API umbrella, otherwise the performance implications might kill it
[7:00pm] plach: GaborHojtsy: I'm not saying I don't want to work on that, but it needs to be a totally different issue than making EFQs ML aware
[7:01pm] plach: GaborHojtsy: In the light of what we said above, adding property meta conditions + test entity listings should be a pretty small patch
[7:02pm] plach: GaborHojtsy: if we can have that one  + form langauge ready before Munich we might have a quasi-working entity translation UI after the sprint
[7:02pm] plach: what do you think?
[7:02pm] GaborHojtsy: plach: yeah, let's try to get there by Munich
[7:03pm] GaborHojtsy: plach: as for the EFQ conversion happening with entity api / storage api, I have not seen that they had interest in working on this at all
[7:04pm] plach: GaborHojtsy: but making entities storage-independent cannot avoid that
[7:04pm] GaborHojtsy: plach: umm, entities can be storage independent and still assume single language properties
[7:05pm] plach: GaborHojtsy: but they need EFQs everyhwere
[7:05pm] plach: unless VDC steps in with pluggable query engines per storage or sci-fi stuff like that
[7:05pm] • GaborHojtsy does not believe in sci-fi in context of D8
[7:06pm] • plach neither
[7:06pm] plach: but I considered VDC sci-fi so who knows?
[7:07pm] plach: GaborHojtsy: do you think that there is no motivation among the Entity API folks in converting all core entity queries to EFQ and that this must happen in the context of D8MI?
[7:08pm] andypost left the chat room. (Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org)
[7:09pm] GaborHojtsy: plach: well, you are right if they abstract the storage, then they'd need to abstract the querying too
[7:09pm] GaborHojtsy: plach: that in itself does not help with making them multilingual, but you are right
[7:13pm] plach: sorry, on the phone
[7:13pm] webflo joined the chat room.
[7:14pm] yched: GaborHojtsy: heya - am I interrupting the meetup ?
[7:15pm] mauhg left the chat room.
[7:15pm] GaborHojtsy: yched: not really, but you'll be in the meeting log
[7:15pm] GaborHojtsy: yched: we are over time, but still in discussion
[7:16pm] yched: GaborHojtsy: ok - can I ping you a bit later then ?
[7:16pm] GaborHojtsy: yched: sure
[7:17pm] yched: GaborHojtsy: 'k
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[7:18pm] plach: here I am
[7:18pm] plach: yched: hey!
[7:18pm] plach: yched: you can talk whnever you want!
[7:18pm] plach: GaborHojtsy: back on topic
[7:19pm] yched: plach:
[7:19pm] yched left the chat room. (Quit: Page closed)
[7:20pm] GaborHojtsy: plach: so yeah, hopefully entity api guys will do EFQ conversions a great deal
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[7:21pm] plach: GaborHojtsy: as I was saying above, I can work on that too, but I'd be hesitant to mark it as D8MI stuff
[7:21pm] plach: GaborHojtsy: what is you major concern around EFQs? solving stuff like the front page listing? or proper DX for ML queries?
[7:24pm] GaborHojtsy: plach: well, lots of things use direct queries in book module, node module, taxonomy, etc.
[7:24pm] GaborHojtsy: plach: so the main concern is that those will respect if something is unpublished, etc.
[7:25pm] GaborHojtsy: plach: and the DX for doing so yes
[7:25pm] GaborHojtsy: plach: *my* concerns do not really include performance as I *know* performance will suffer, since we *need* to put in this abstraction layer, but as you pointed out, entity api has a join interest
[7:25pm] GaborHojtsy: so I'd say it is an expected performance penalty
[7:26pm] plach: GaborHojtsy: ok
[7:26pm] plach: GaborHojtsy: let's try to put down a road map
[7:27pm] plach: as I was saying above I'd like to have a semi-working ET UI after Munich
[7:27pm] plach: this will let us start seeing what actually needs to be fixed
[7:28pm] GaborHojtsy: plach++
[7:28pm] GaborHojtsy: plach++
[7:28pm] plach: GaborHojtsy: if we can have a working test example for ml EFQ listings then perhaps peaople can work on separate issues in Munich and start converting stuff?
[7:29pm] plach: GaborHojtsy: did we reach any consensus on the module names?
[7:30pm] plach: anything like bunny_multilingual?
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[7:34pm] GaborHojtsy: plach: I don't remember the conclusion of that, but I was thinking about it hard to remember
[7:34pm] plach: GaborHojtsy: I think you should just decide
[7:35pm] GaborHojtsy: plach: yeah, bunny_language, bunny_multilingual, bunny_translation, etc. were contenders
[7:35pm] GaborHojtsy: plach: I think we can forgo that now
[7:35pm] plach: GaborHojtsy: I will need a new module for he UI
[7:36pm] plach: GaborHojtsy: and a namespace to work with
[7:36pm] GaborHojtsy: plach: yeah, I think you can pick now and then rename it needed
[7:36pm] GaborHojtsy: plach: entity_translation sounds like a very techie name but might be it
[7:37pm] plach: GaborHojtsy: it's awfully long to work with
[7:38pm] plach: GaborHojtsy: since they are bundled with core, can we have a short techie module name and a long-user-friendly-here's-the-icecream user facing name?
[7:38pm] plach: ml_content, ml_config, ml_interface
[7:39pm] plach: or something like that
[7:43pm] GaborHojtsy: plach: core does not like abbreviations at ll
[7:44pm] plach: GaborHojtsy: we'll have choose sooner or later, why not doing that before starting the UI work?
[7:44pm] • plach has to go in minutes
[7:45pm] GaborHojtsy: plach: well, core does not like abbreviations, but tech terms are ok, so entity_translation seems like fine, or entity_language if you want something slightly less long
[7:45pm] GaborHojtsy: plach: its all up to IDEs to complete function names though
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[7:46pm] plach: ok, let's keep that for now
[7:47pm] GaborHojtsy: plach: cool
[7:49pm] plach: GaborHojtsy: just one thing: it might clash with an hypotetical 8.x version of the contrib module with migration puroposes
[7:49pm] GaborHojtsy: plach: yeah, yeah
[7:49pm] plach: maybe translation_entity
[7:49pm] GaborHojtsy: plach: I'm not ready to say any "final" word on names, and we'll rehash the whole thing the Drupalcon sprint anyway
[7:49pm] GaborHojtsy: plach: we might have the name by the time you arrive
[7:50pm] plach: ok, I really have to go now
[7:50pm] plach: will there be any other meeting here before Munich?
[7:50pm] plach: GaborHojtsy: ^
[7:52pm] GaborHojtsy: plach: yeah, not eh 15th there should be one
[7:52pm] GaborHojtsy: plach: on the 15th that is
[7:52pm] GaborHojtsy: plach: of aug
[7:53pm] plach: ok, noted
[7:53pm] plach: bye!
[7:53pm] Druplicon: I'll miss you!!