Currently groups.drupal.org has a "Job" content type available for content creators to use.
Due to the number of organizations looking to do hiring, the availability of this content type has resulted in an increasing number of Job content type nodes being posted into groups here where job postings reduce the effectiveness / usefulness of the group. Frequently (almost always?) the job postings are for positions that have very little to do with the subject matter of the group.
Group admins must figure out how to handle these in a sane way. I certainly have this as a common problem in http://groups.drupal.org/web-experience-management . For example, today http://groups.drupal.org/node/206868 was created in this group; this posting is for a "Data Base Analyst I" at Duke University. This has nothing to do with Web Experience Management. Since I would like to keep the signal-to-noise ratio in my group very high, I want to get rid of this type of posting in my group.
I have often edited job postings in my group and moved the Audience to more relevant-sounding groups. But often, I'm making a pretty arbitrary decisions about what other groups to foist these postings into.
I would like to propose changing g.d.o to implement one of several solutions:
- Get rid of the Jobs content type. Jobs are already one of the functions of the d.o forums (at http://drupal.org/paid-services ), so we could get rid of the Jobs content type here. The downside of this: There _may_, in fact, be times when a job posting here at d.o is actually relevant to the topic of a group. I think I'd rather NOT have such postings in a group, but I can see a case for it.
- Create a "Job postings" group. The Consulting and business group often has job postings in it, but job postings seem outside of the stated mission of that group. (There's currently a discussion going on in there about this same issue.) Group managers can edit/change the audience of an unrelated job posting over to that group.
The downside of this: There's already a page at g.d.o/jobs; presumably this is just a view, and it's still useful to have that view. So we'd have to fit that view with the normal group home page (either as a special tab within the group, or something...). - Enable admins to disable content types per-group using OG Features. We created this capability for the Commons distribution and it's really useful. This would give group admins the option to turn off the Job content type for their groups if desired. (Note: This does not require use of the Features module; "Feature" is a bit of a namespace collision....)
Frankly, IMHO, I would do both 2 and 3, because it seems impossible to respond to every job posting & tell the poster to move the listing to d.o. (I've tried; nobody ever does.) So let's just funnel the job postings that show up on on g.d.o into a sane place.
Comments?
-jb
Comments
The paid-services forum is a
The paid-services forum is a good one, but it provides no filterable meta-data about the job types. This makes it tedious for people looking for work (of which there are a lot in the world right now, so I'm sensitive to their needs).
/jobs is the most popular page on this site. I've been involved in several discussions to move the job function to a jobs.drupal.org site and every time people start talking about how they will need to create a taxonomy for geographic locations and job skills and THEN they'll have to get people to subscribe to notifications about that. The thing is, we already have those taxonomies and we have people subscribed to the notifications - it's g.d.o.
I'm open to the idea of a jobs group, but even then I would still want it to be easy for job-posts to stay in on-topic groups. I think part of our problem is that og_notifications, notifications, and messaging are all pretty broken and didn't let you unsubscribe from content types in groups. If individuals could just unsubscribe from nodes of type "job" in their groups then we're fine. I've been working to get og_notifications stable again and will try out the latest release (after 2+ years - hallelujah) to see if it gives us what we need.
This discussion is really hard to have b/c the folks who are looking for jobs are often not outspoken about that fact. But the worldwide numbers on unemployment make it clear to me that we need to keep this feature working well for people.
knaddison blog | Morris Animal Foundation
I think the problem goes
I think the problem goes beyond notifications. Job posts outnumber conversation in many groups and it gives the impression that a group has gone dormant ... Do you object to 3) from Jay's list? Seems like quick win to me. An alternative would be to prevent job posts in non-geographic groups? Kinda arbitrary but it requires a little code and no work from group admins.
I agree to the idea of Jay's
I agree to the idea of Jay's #3 but not necessarily the technical details. og_features is a relatively immature module that needs more QA before I can embrace it.
There was an OG module that allowed group admins to limit the content types that can be posted into their group, but it is also very young and needs a review/improvement first.
Job posts in non-geographic groups means that a telecommute job for database experts can't go into the database group (or a performance job into the high performance group). That feels wrong to me.
I'd like us to back up our decisions with anonymous polls so we can get feedback from job searchers on the topic.
knaddison blog | Morris Animal Foundation
Do the anonymous poll carefully
I'm sure you know that polls are highly subject to the quality of how the poll is written - especially when voters don't know all the implications, or are uneducated about options.
Of course, I'm sure you don't need me to tell you this.
Notifications are actually somewhat irrelevant
Everybody's good at dealing with email notifications they don't want. It's called the Delete key. og_notifications is a tertiary issue at best vis-a-vis this issue.
The bigger issue is what Moshe refers to: That the bulk of postings in a group can easily become (irrelevant) hiring postings, and obscure the actual activity of a group.
As I said, I'm aware that /jobs should still function effectively; it just may need to operate somewhat differently than it does now....
You can use og_panels to
You can use og_panels to remove jobs from the homepage.
knaddison blog | Morris Animal Foundation
I've been advocating moving
I've been advocating moving jobs off of GDO for a long time. The DA has been quite slow to take on that job. I think we should take action now. We should do 3) at least, IMO.
My thoughts
I run into this constantly and would love to have a place to dump them. I started that discussion in C&B because I was worried I was irritating them by dumping jobs there. So many people just toss them in whatever group they are subscribed to and it really does get quite crazy.
In the long term, I'd like to see a more involved marketplace to match these job posters with the insane amount of people/shops on http://groups.drupal.org/available-for-hire to enable them to connect easier. But that will take work that I'm not volunteering for so, in the mean time, I'd just be thrilled to have a designated "jobs" group to shove postings to when they aren't posted into any relevant group so that simply trimming the groups isn't an option.
Michelle
Strangely today also this old
Strangely today also this old issue been brought up http://drupal.org/node/1035184 in which people dislike job postings on Drupal Planet also.
Best solution in my opinion would be separate space on d.o for jobs. There is even prototype for it: https://infrastructure.drupal.org/drupal.org-style-guide/prototype/jobs.... !
Until there is nothing like that removing Jobs content type is not a good idea, because forums is not a good solution for this kind of activity imo.
As a quick win creating special Drupal Jobs group and allowing cross-post to only groups that allow it would be nice (so essentially No. 2+3 from the list).
Just as to motivate us even
Just as to motivate us even more "Sr. Drupal Developer | Prokarma" just landed in Groups.drupal.org group :)
http://groups.drupal.org/node/207193
A separate space is such big work
Think "good enough" for now, to get rid of immediate pain.
Sometimes "best" is the enemy of "good enough" - which is the case in this situation, IMHO.
Auto Expire & Intermediate page
I know this will require a lil code but...
I'd like to see job posts on GDO which have an auto expire. Who really needs to know that 4 months ago yet another recruiter wanted some one with 10 yrs of PHP and .net and C# and Java experience to work for an undisclosed client for an undisclosed rate.
Here's the user story.
User hits "Create Job" and is taken to an intermediate policy page that lists some guidelines and recommendations on how to get the "most from your post." The submitter is encouraged to reach out to d.o as well. It also states that the post will die in 90 days. The "I AGREE" button is the link to node/add/job.
If we're worried about losing content then maybe the /jobs page DOES show all posts, but the other groups only show jobs in the last 90 days.
This would certainly help resolve some of the clutter. I think the Intermediate Page would serve well to inform and instruct the posers. Yes, many will blow it off just like a TOS page, but I have to believe it will have a positive return on the effort taken to build it.
While a fine idea...
... it doesn't solve the problem of keeping job posts out of gdo groups where they don't belong.
I suspect the usefulness of
I suspect the usefulness of job posts in specific g.d.o groups depends on the groups and the users in the group.
For regional groups, I think that jobs (non-telecommute and in the region of course) are relevant and useful. For topical groups, job posts are probably a distraction. I also think it's helpful to remove job posts from the primary group view and put them into a side block, so they're in a consistent place that group members can ignore or focus on.
+1
+1 for no job posts in the River Of News.
Or maybe let each gdo manager select that.
Users would need some visual queue that a new jobpost was available that they had not already viewed. I wouldn't want "out of sight, out of mind" to cause loss of exposure.
I'll admit it...
I'm pretty much anti-job in both Groups and the Planet. Of course, I have no interest in it, but I understand other do (and it does provide a bit of a metric to see how well Drupal is doing.) So I believe we should give Group's moderators the choice. (Last night on IRC i said "* silverwing is hesitant recommending groups when over half the posts are jobs :( ")
As for a Job Group, I can see this as being a dumping ground for these posts, and it would just duplicate what we have at /jobs
I would also be great if Job posts were auto-unpublished from Groups after the 60/90 days, but allowed to remain at /jobs indefinitely. (Not sure how possible this would be.)
But a group is still needed...
... to solve the problem of where the postings should live. Remember, in order to create a job listing (that wil appear at /jobs), you must create content, since on GDO, all content is created in the context of a group.
And the problem is that they're being created in random groups, and polluting the value of the groups (as you say).
The more we discuss this, the more I'm inclined to say the easy way out here is to simply create a new group (now re-)named as "job-listings" (job-postings, help-wanted - anything except "jobs" so as to avoid URL conflicts with the current /jobs page) where such content is created, and to which job postings can be moved (/added) if they're created outside of that group (and are irrelevant to the group where they were created).
Why? It's simple: We create the group, moderate its approval, and we make life immediately better for those who have a problem (group admins) without negatively impacting the job-seekers and the current /jobs page. It also avoids the QA issue of adding a new module to GDO.
Best short term
I think this is the best short term solution we have. Those who want jobs in their groups can continue to have them and there will be a central place to move them to when they are posted in a group that doesn't want them.
Michelle
Just scanning through
I haven't perused the entire thread, as I'm trying to get stuff done and leave in about -3 hours (oops - story of my life), so this may have been mentioned, but I thought I would point out that it is possible to design a group page in such a way that jobs postings get relegated to their own space, as I did in the Las Vegas group.
Yes, this is possible, but..
Nice group page design.
But this doesn't solve the problem of what to do with job postings in a group that are irrelevant to the group. If I (as group admin) go edit the page to move it out of my group, what group do I put the posting in? I still need a target group.
I missed that part in my rush
Yes, I agree. That is a problem I sometimes deal with, too.
My two cents...
For what it's worth from someone who regularly scans the Jobs section, I'd like to see all jobs posted there. I'll admit I like to hear of regional or interest jobs in my regional groups, but I think that could be handled by just a mention that a job has been posted and if I am interested, I can go to Jobs and check it out. On the other hand, I get really annoyed at all the cross-posting of jobs in groups and agree that some groups are nothing but job boards instead of discussion/interest groups.
DSquaredB
Danita Bowman
Done
http://groups.drupal.org/drupal-jobs - Group Maintainers can move off-topic/unwanted postings there, and Business can post their Drupal-specific jobs to that group.
Wheeeeeeeeee!!!!!
My life will be better now.
Thanks! :-)
Yes, please...
For the love of all that is Open and Free, please let's get the jobs out of our local and thematic groups! They have completely overwhelmed many/most of the groups that I belong to.
I think a longer term solution would be to have a paid job board tied to the marketplace, but that is just a pipe dream at this point.
Alex Urevick-Ackelsberg
ZivTech: Illuminating Technology
+1 for a job board on g.d.o.
+1 for a job board on g.d.o. or drupal.org that can be monetized with the funds being used to support DA initiatives. I'd imagine a financial barrier to entry (even at a "reasonable" price point) would significantly clean-up and reduce the volume of postings. As Greg eluded to, the concern is we want to be careful about not reducing opportunities for those that are unemployed, in a career transition, etc. and not likely to voice their opposition. In addition, how much would a pay-to-post model dissuade organizations from advertising their openings?
Cheers,
Dave
Mediacurrent
I actually disagree with a pay-for-post model
We need to balance the need for Drupalists to get work (and fund continued Drupal development) with the need to continue to promote the adoption of Drupal.
A lot of the jobs posted are for end-user companies looking to hire directly; Drupal.org should not put up barriers (e.g. charge money) to help them adopt Drupal; in fact, d.o should be working hard to help them find Drupal talent.
There are also Drupal shops that are expanding. While I suspect the "big names" often know who they want to target from within the existing community, we also want to encourage up-and-comer shops. These may want to post jobs here, too. d.o should not make it more expensive for them to hire (since it's already hard enough!)
There may be a middle ground: There does seem to be a collection of recruiter-type people who post. We could make the terms of service for job posting such that recruiters need to pay-to-post. This can't be 100% enforced; a recruiter could always try to masquerade. But this adds to their intangible cost of posting, and over time (if the posting cost is structured correctly) they may decide paying to post is cheaper than managing the masquerade.
Tiers?
How about the first X posts in Y time is free and after that is a cost? End users looking to hire and small shops aren't going to exceed X so it will be free. Recruiters and big shops that are posting a lot of jobs would start kicking in a bit for the "space rental".
Also, maybe this should be moved to an issue? I can't imagine there isn't one already... It's getting a bit OT for this one and something we don't want hidden away in the maint group...
Michelle
Jay, Yes, you make a very
Jay,
Yes, you make a very valid point about not wanting to hinder an organizations ability to hire Drupal talent.
I do know there are a lot of associations though that charge for posting on their website, and companies/recruiters gladly do so because they see value in the exposure they receive. The other point to consider is that the funds generated from a job board could be used for initiatives that promote more Drupal-centric events, training material, infrastructure improvements, etc. - this would certainly help bring more talent into the community.
As you said, there has to be a happy medium here, and I hope the DA is thinking hard about income generating activities like this.
Progress on allowing group admins to remove jobs content type?
Has the been any progress on allowing group admins to remove the jobs content type?
re: Job Posts on GDO
Daniel,
Here's my understanding of the current state of how we as group leaders and moderators are managing job posts.
1.. Any logged user can create a Job post in any group.
[I too would like to see this changed, but for now all groups allow job posts]
2.. Some groups state explicitly on their front page that job posts are not welcomed.
In those cases, the recommendation is that job posts should go only to the dedicated group that is just for jobs posts
http://groups.drupal.org/drupal-jobs
3.. If a job post appears in a group that you manage, you can move that node off of your group and into the http://groups.drupal.org/drupal-jobs group
Be kind and use that poster's Contact form to let them know that the post has been moved.
I see that you manage the http://groups.drupal.org/kendra-initiative group. Currently I don't see any job posts on your front page. Still, It would be a good idea to edit the description and state that no job posts are allowed and redirect them to http://groups.drupal.org/drupal-jobs instead
Also... I have a history of checking in on the authors who post jobs in groups that I manage. After a few weeks or months have passed, I use their contact form and ask them if I can delete the old post. Also, If I see that 6weeks later they have posted a similar post, I ask if I can delete the old one. In one example, I have a guy who posts job posts, then emails me later asking me to delete it when the position is either filled, or he's given up.
I hope that helps. ;-)
Doug Vann [Drupal Trainer, Consultant, Developer]
htp://dougvann.com
Doug, Greg: Create side panels without jobs?...
Thanks. I also read that I can use og_panels to remove jobs from the homepage. Is there any guidance on how to do this?
Is there a way to recreate the side panels without jobs? I see that under the Pages > List > Edit Page there's a Show blocks checkbox that removes all the standard group blocks. And then under Pages > List > Edit Content > Add content > Views there seems to be views for jobs and all. Has anyone done this before and documented it? Ever seen a group with a homemade create content panel that doesn't have jobs in it?
Cheers!
There's a "not jobs" display
There's a "not jobs" display that's part of the og_content_list view that filters for every content type other than jobs, but it's been broken for a very long time.
Oddly, it's still working for some OG Panels pages but not any new ones. For example, it's working in the Drupal California group:
http://groups.drupal.org/california
Community vote on ideas for
Community vote on ideas for 2014 Drupal.org roadmap going on this week. For everyone interested in moving job postings out of g.d.o to a dedicate space, here is an idea to vote on: https://groups.drupal.org/node/312843