Drupal 8 Multilingual Initiative meeting on Jan 4, 2012

[18:01] GaborHojtsy_ hi everybody!
[18:02] GaborHojtsy_ our timeslot for the D8MI meeting is just starting
[18:02] GaborHojtsy_ I've posted a status update earlier today which you might have seen:
[18:02] GaborHojtsy_ http://groups.drupal.org/node/199963
[18:02] Druplicon http://groups.drupal.org/node/199963 => Report of eight months of work on Drupal 8's multilingual improvements => 0 comments, 2 IRC mentions
[18:03] GaborHojtsy_ first of all thanks everyone for contributing to all those great improvements :()
[18:03] GaborHojtsy_ that is
[18:03] GaborHojtsy_ second, anybody has questions or want to get into details of some pieces there?
[18:05] GaborHojtsy_ nope, ok
[18:05] GaborHojtsy_ let's talk current work then
[18:05] GaborHojtsy_ anybody here looking to help out?
[18:07] GaborHojtsy_ no?
[18:07] GaborHojtsy_ thinks this is going to be a short meeting
[18:07] webchick I personally don't have time to help out, but I'm interested in where to point people during core office house, etc.
[18:07] webchick hours* not house*
[18:07] webchick GaborHojtsy_: I can chuck them at the D8MI queue, but is there anything you'd suggest for less experienced contributors?
[18:07] GaborHojtsy_ webchick: cool, the current focus list is http://drupal.org/node/1260534#comment-5411310
[18:07] Druplicon http://drupal.org/node/1260534 => META-META: Make language support awesome in Drupal 8 => Drupal core, language system, normal, active, 29 comments, 11 IRC mentions
[18:08] webchick Cool.
[18:08] GaborHojtsy_ webchick: http://drupal.org/node/1387608 is very simple and needs review
[18:08] Druplicon http://drupal.org/node/1387608 => Unify language_list() and locale_language_list() => Drupal core, language system, normal, needs review, 9 comments, 1 IRC mention
[18:08] GaborHojtsy_ webchick: the two langcode patches look simple but are pretty big and delicate also need reviewhttp://drupal.org/node/1357918 and http://drupal.org/node/1357912
[18:08] Druplicon http://drupal.org/node/1357918 => Change language schema to refer to langcode => Drupal core, language system, normal, needs review, 24 comments, 1 IRC mention
[18:08] Druplicon http://drupal.org/node/1357912 => Convert path language code schema to langcode => Drupal core, language system, normal, needs review, 16 comments, 1 IRC mention
[18:09] GaborHojtsy_ the trick there is that we change certain things to use langcode uniformly
[18:09] webchick Ha, roger that.
[18:09] GaborHojtsy_ but we don't yet change other things because it would be a 1M diff
[18:09] webchick Aw, no 1M patches?
[18:09] webchick Live on the wild side!
[18:09] webchick GaborHojtsy_: Then I also saw mention that helping with the OO-ification of entities would help, right?
[18:09] GaborHojtsy_ so even on the same code lines, we sometimes change a ->language to langcode, sometimes not, depending on where it comes from / goes to
[18:10] webchick (that is not a novice task but it is something that helps about 29 initiatives at once :))
[18:10] GaborHojtsy_ webchick: and http://drupal.org/node/1280538 is another simple issue that needs help
[18:10] Druplicon http://drupal.org/node/1280538 => Language negotiation UX: default the path prefix setting on installation so that it actually works right away => Drupal core, language system, normal, needs work, 15 comments, 1 IRC mention
[18:10] GaborHojtsy_ webchick: yup, the OO-ification would be great for us because we want to introduce language support more universally
[18:10] GaborHojtsy_ webchick: and introducing it on the base level would be ideal
[18:10] GaborHojtsy_ webchick: i.e. moving it from the node entity level down to the base entity level
[18:11] GaborHojtsy_ webchick: if that does not work, we need to duplicate the related code in all controllers
[18:11] webchick Yeah, ick.
[18:11] GaborHojtsy_ and then the biggest discussion piece is plach's writeup on content language
[18:12] GaborHojtsy_ http://groups.drupal.org/node/197848
[18:12] Druplicon http://groups.drupal.org/node/197848 => Content language support in Drupal 8 => 0 comments, 1 IRC mention
[18:12] GaborHojtsy_ which does have several moving parts outside the entity-OOP circle
[18:13] webchick Oh thanks. I missed that one.
[18:13] GaborHojtsy_ webchick: so the ongoing issues are more language related storage / API cleanup and negotiation usability (and then will move on to negotiation API cleanup)
[18:13] plach ctahces up
[18:14] GaborHojtsy_ webchick: the ongoing discussion piece is plach's
[18:14] GaborHojtsy_ webchick: the biggest in-the-works dependency is the entity OOP-ification
[18:14] GaborHojtsy_ webchick: which got some steam the past few days but does need more help still
[18:14] webchick Ok, let me see if I can rally some folks to crank on that.
[18:14] GaborHojtsy_ webchick: sounds great
[18:14] webchick The rest of this looks tougher to get random bystanders involved
[18:15] webchick As you kinda need to know some intricacies of the system
[18:15] webchick plach: btw, thanks for those screenshots in the entity translation issue. NOW I get it.
[18:15] GaborHojtsy_ webchick: yes, true
[18:16] plach I ain't sure it fits in the D8MI but I'm working on the new ET UI these days, I hope the discussion there can serve as a basis for the D( translation uI
[18:16] plach yes
[18:16] plach UX folks welcome there
[18:16] GaborHojtsy_ plach: yeah, sure it fits in D8MI, hopefully it gets in D8
[18:17] plach GaborHojtsy_: I mean I ain't sure how much of it can actually get into D8 as-is
[18:17] plach we'll see how it behaves in the nex m onths
[18:18] GaborHojtsy_ plach: I think how it applies to other entity forms was a key question
[18:18] GaborHojtsy_ plach: on the issue
[18:18] GaborHojtsy_ plach: but there was lot of traffic and I'm not yet caught up there honestly, sorry
[18:18] plach I'm trying to code it in a way that any entiy form just gets a translation vertical tab
[18:18] plach and langauge subtabs
[18:18] plach the rest is enty-type dependent
[18:19] plach *entity
[18:21] GaborHojtsy_ cool
[18:21] GaborHojtsy_ plach: any particular questions you'd like to call out from your writeup or the UI discussion?
[18:21] plach GaborHojtsy_: any favorite topic for today? I'd like to speak about moving the language negotiation api in the language module if there's nothing more important to speak about
[18:21] plach crosspost
[18:22] GaborHojtsy_ plach: ha, sure
[18:22] GaborHojtsy_ plach: I guess I was properly convinced of merging the negotiation pieces to language.module too
[18:22] plach GaborHojtsy_: from my writeup I'd like to move on with the DX and storage sections but I feel we need some more core maintainers for those
[18:23] plach GaborHojtsy_: oh, nice, nothing to discuss on that side
[18:23] GaborHojtsy_ plach: hehe, we'll need to do some cleanup and docs additions first or as part of that move I guess
[18:23] GaborHojtsy_ plach: we did the cleanup work first on the language API before moving it
[18:24] GaborHojtsy_ plach: I think the main interesting piece with moving to language.module would be that unless you enable content language or interface language, negotiation really does not need to appear
[18:24] GaborHojtsy_ plach: what would it negotiate if it is not used anywhere?
[18:24] plach GaborHojtsy_: works for me
[18:25] GaborHojtsy_ plach: once you enable content language support let's say, which language.module + node.module should eventually be enough for, you'd get your config that applies to language_content
[18:25] plach GaborHojtsy_: we need to avoid loading its code if it's not used, do you mean this is the main challenge?
[18:25] GaborHojtsy_ plach: then if you enable the interface translation module, you get that UI
[18:25] GaborHojtsy_ plach: or if you do it the other way around... then ...
[18:26] GaborHojtsy_ plach: yeah, I'm not sure its code being mainly in includes/language.inc is a good place
[18:26] GaborHojtsy_ plach: BUT I'd like to avoid a big OOP mumbo-jumbo for now here
[18:27] plach ok
[18:27] GaborHojtsy_ plach: its the most flexible part of the language system and not a source of much user problems
[18:27] plach GaborHojtsy_: I think angie owed us a final feedback about the plan of splitting locale
[18:27] GaborHojtsy_ webchick: ^
[18:28] plach GaborHojtsy_: spoke with Crell some time ago, I think oopifying the language negotiation stuff is really tied with WSCCI
[18:28] plach GaborHojtsy_: hence we need to wait for it
[18:28] GaborHojtsy_ webchick: plach: yeah, so my current working plan is that language.module would be the language management stuff as-is now and negotiation baked in there; this is in itself should be enough for language assignment to say nodes, paths, etc. without enabling any other module
[18:29] GaborHojtsy_ webchick: plach: to make language.module in itself be the gate for language assignment on stuff, http://drupal.org/node/1387608 is in the way
[18:29] Druplicon http://drupal.org/node/1387608 => Unify language_list() and locale_language_list() => Drupal core, language system, normal, needs review, 9 comments, 2 IRC mentions
[18:29] GaborHojtsy_ webchick: plach: and once that lands, locale_language_name() is in the way
[18:30] GaborHojtsy_ webchick: plach: once we resolve these two, node (+comment) and path module will easily assign languages to data
[18:30] GaborHojtsy_ webchick: plach: then in the meantime the OOP-ification of entities will go on, so we can get to adding language to other entities, like taxonomy, files, etc.
[18:31] GaborHojtsy_ webchick: plach: and at that point what's left in locale would be UI translation and this crazy language support for date formats
[18:31] GaborHojtsy_ webchick: plach: the later will hopefully be covered by CMI, so all is left is UI translation, at which point we want to rename the module I think (but there are a huge set of cleanup and feature tasks for UI translation to do on the way)
[18:32] plach GaborHojtsy_: and what about the language selection widget?
[18:32] webchick plach: / GaborHojtsy_ I still don't really understand why you are blocking that in any way on my feedback.I merely said "this makes me all ooky." that doesn't mean STOP.
[18:32] GaborHojtsy_ plach: well currently that widget is powered by locale_language_list(), which gets merged with langauge_list() which is bootstrap.inc accessible by http://drupal.org/node/1387608
[18:32] Druplicon http://drupal.org/node/1387608 => Unify language_list() and locale_language_list() => Drupal core, language system, normal, needs review, 9 comments, 3 IRC mentions
[18:33] GaborHojtsy_ webchick: it did not stop, we broke out langauge.module over the holidays
[18:33] webchick Yes, so I saw.
[18:33] webchick But I'm confused by 'webchick owes us feedback"
[18:33] webchick my feedback is already in the thread IMO
[18:33] GaborHojtsy_ plach: so then still all modules have their own code for the widget itself, which is/was still true
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[18:34] GaborHojtsy_ plach: and we can unify that in http://drupal.org/node/1280996, which looks a bit hodge-podgey now
[18:34] Druplicon http://drupal.org/node/1280996 => New language_select element type for form API => Drupal core, forms system, normal, needs work, 47 comments, 8 IRC mentions
[18:34] GaborHojtsy_ plach: i.e. we want to unify a selector element that has a sizable list of conditions and alternate versions
[18:35] GaborHojtsy_ plach: does that make sense?
[18:36] plach webchick: I thought you said something like "I have to read all this stuff agin before giving you a final feedback" but nevermind
[18:36] plach I'd just hate to go on and then being frowned upon even from you and Dries
[18:36] plach is getting used to that, anyway
[18:36] GaborHojtsy_ plach: nah
[18:37] GaborHojtsy_ plach: I think its going to be nice... people want to use languages, go enable language module
[18:38] GaborHojtsy_ plach: also, we are hard at work on issues like http://drupal.org/node/1280538 which introduce sane defaults so people don't even need to think about certain things they need to understand in D7
[18:38] Druplicon http://drupal.org/node/1280538 => Language negotiation UX: default the path prefix setting on installation so that it actually works right away => Drupal core, language system, normal, needs work, 15 comments, 2 IRC mentions
[18:38] webchick plach: Aw, I never frown on you.But I do have opinions about things.
[18:39] plach webchick: not yet, gimme time
[18:40] plach GaborHojtsy_: I ain't sure I get what you mean with "a sizable list of conditions and alternate versions"
[18:41] GaborHojtsy_ plach: if you look at the patch in http://drupal.org/node/1387608 you'll see there are pretty big differences, sometimes we remove English on some conditions, sometimes we add disabled languages and enabled ones in optgroups, sometimes we add an empty element on top, sometimes we don't, sometimes we add an empty element on bottom...
[18:41] Druplicon http://drupal.org/node/1387608 => Unify language_list() and locale_language_list() => Drupal core, language system, normal, needs review, 9 comments, 4 IRC mentions
[18:41] plach oh, I see
[18:41] GaborHojtsy_ plach: so doing a "here, language selector form API element for you" type of widget proved to be non-trivial
[18:41] GaborHojtsy_ plach: the different one-off form API properties on the issue show that pretty well
[18:42] plach GaborHojtsy_: got it, thanks
[18:42] GaborHojtsy_ plach: not sure how to generalize it without exposing the nitpicky details some forms need
[18:44] plach GaborHojtsy_: could we have a standard widget and add some process callback altering it to suit the various needs?
[18:45] GaborHojtsy_ plach: yeah, possible
[18:46] GaborHojtsy_ plach: if you have some bright ideas, I think that issue is waiting for exactly that
[18:46] plach ok
[18:46] plach GaborHojtsy_: btw, do you have a top ten of issues to be addressed?
[18:47] GaborHojtsy_ plach: top ten overall or current?
[18:48] webchick top ten++
[18:48] plach I think a hierachy + priority list of the issues needing work now would help in this phase
[18:48] GaborHojtsy_ plach: I star the current top issues in the D8MI mindmap regularly: http://www.mindmeister.com/117476272#
[18:49] GaborHojtsy_ plach: the well progressing needs review issues that are top are at http://drupal.org/node/1260534#comment-5411310 as posted above
[18:49] Druplicon http://drupal.org/node/1260534 => META-META: Make language support awesome in Drupal 8 => Drupal core, language system, normal, active, 29 comments, 12 IRC mentions
[18:49] GaborHojtsy_ plach: not sure how to maintain a more comprehensive list sanely
[18:50] GaborHojtsy_ plach: I found that having a shorter list of focus issues and trying to churn through quicker helps compared to having an endless list of tasks
[18:50] plach GaborHojtsy_: yeah, I meant exactly that, I just missed it
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[18:51] plach GaborHojtsy_: webchick: meta question:
[18:51] webchick The HTML5 initiative uses the tag "sprint" so you can pull up a view of d8MI+sprint to get a list of "What's hot right now?"
[18:51] webchick er. html5+sprint, but anyway.same deal.
[18:51] plach the content language writeup did not get a single comment
[18:51] GaborHojtsy_ plach: if you do have some free time to look at the langcode issues, they only need review
[18:52] GaborHojtsy_ webchick: good idea
[18:52] plach we need feedback from core maintainers and core devs, especially those who don't care about langauge
[18:52] -->| yoroy (~yoroy@j87028.upc-j.chello.nl) has joined #drupal-i18n
[18:52] webchick plach: well I totally missed that post somehow.
[18:52] plach at least from the DX and storage issues
[18:52] webchick plach: If you need that kind of feedback, I would say post to g.d.o/core
[18:53] webchick plach: that syndicates to planet, twitter, etc.
[18:53] plach already done
[18:53] webchick shoot. really? was it over xmas break?
[18:53] webchick looks
[18:53] plach december, 21st
[18:53] webchick yes, see. nothing happens that week.
[18:54] plach bad timing .D
[18:54] webchick let's see...
[18:54] plach webchick: however, if you could try to warn people not willing to deal with language stuff that they reeally need to have a look to that plan, it would help
[18:55] plach I tried to make it clear in the core post
[18:55] webchick Yep, will do.
[18:55] plach at least the DX and storage sections will probably impact everyone
[18:55] webchick I literally just saw that this morning for the first time when gabor mentioned it.
[18:55] plach webchick: so, no point in ignoring themù
[18:55] webchick so let me give it a read through and then I'll twitter about it
[18:55] plach great
[18:55] webchick and maybe also put together some kind of 'meta' post about how people can help
[18:56] webchick or maybe title it something like THINGS THAT WILL TERRIFY AND FRIGHTEN YOU IF YOU DO NOT PAY ATTENTION
[18:56] plach webchick: I was tempted to name the core post DRUPAL SUCKS! (now that I have your attention...)
[18:57] webchick lol
[18:57] webchick plach: it might also be that these posts are very information-dense. I know GaborHojtsy_ did a similarly laid-out post back towards the beginning of D8MI and it also got no responses.
[18:57] webchick I think multilingual scares the shit out of people
[18:58] GaborHojtsy_ webchick: LOL, but we are nice people
[18:58] plach webchick: I tried to split in smaller chunks
[18:58] plach split it
[18:58] webchick plach: yes, you did a good job, but it's still very dense.
[18:58] GaborHojtsy_ webchick: and... I don't know... I don't think the topic is so scary
[18:58] webchick GaborHojtsy_: well, you are a little biased.
[18:58] plach really, people not interested in langauge stuff just need to reed one section or two
[18:59] webchick plach: ok, so would a tweet be something like "The #drupal 8 multilingual initiative has plans in the works that affect you if you are a module developer. Check , especially the API and developer experience and Data structures sections?"
[18:59] plach webchick: did you read any wscci discussion recently?
[18:59] webchick yes, the difference is people are convinced WSCCI is going to destroy Drupal and eat babies.
[19:00] webchick Maybe D8MI needs more bad press.
[19:00] webchick
[19:00] GaborHojtsy_ YEAH
[19:00] plach webchick: I'd stress on the fact that also core maintianers/devs will be affected by the choices that come up from it
[19:00] webchick BREAKING: GaborHojtsy_ rips out system.module, calls it "not multilingual friendly enough"
[19:00] webchick plach: how about this. Author me a tweet.
[19:00] webchick plach: and I'll be happy to send it
[19:01] plach LOL, yeah
[19:01] plach webchick: my favorite twitter client
[19:01] webchick Cos I don't know how to squeeze all of that into 128 chars
[19:01] webchick LOL
[19:01] plach types
[19:01] GaborHojtsy_ webchick: no, ripping out system module would actually be popular
[19:01] webchick Shoot. You're right.
[19:02] plach language as the base entity class hierarchy?
[19:02] webchick tries to think of anything in core people actually like and comes up short.
[19:05] GaborHojtsy_ ok, well, anything else we want to cover?
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[19:07] tsvenson webchick: install.php is pretty OK
[19:08] plach webchick: The #drupal 8 multilingual initiative will affect large areas of core. We need YOUR voice in http://bit.ly/uPqiNI, API and DX sections #d8mi
[19:08] webchick plach: oh that's beautiful!
[19:08] webchick Thanks.
[19:09] plach you can change large with huge if you feel hypy
[19:09] plach
[19:09] webchick Exxxactly 128 chars. You are GOOD.
[19:09] plach it's been tough
[19:10] webchick plach: ok, kicked that out thru both @webchick and @drupal
[19:10] webchick let's see if that gets you any comments.
[19:10] webchick and I'll add it to my own reading list for later.
[19:10] webchick plach++
[19:10] webchick GaborHojtsy++
[19:11] GaborHojtsy_ webchick++
[19:11] =-= GaborHojtsy_ is now known as GaborHojtsy
[19:12] tsvenson hopes #D8MI doesn't get hijacked to mean Drupal 8 Mission Impossible...
[19:12] plach wonderful!
[19:12] webchick doodle-dooooooo… doodle-doooooo...
[19:12] plach tsvenson: lol
[19:14] GaborHojtsy tsvenson: wow, never thought of that
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[19:14] webchick there's also the mobile initaitive, so it's confusing.
[19:15] webchick #d8i18n or something would be a bit more clear.
[19:15] tsvenson GaborHojtsy: Actually the first thing that crossed my mind when I saw it.
[19:15] GaborHojtsy webchick: well, we were first, so mobile will need to figure this out
[19:15] webchick hehe
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[19:18] GaborHojtsy_ ok, then
[19:18] GaborHojtsy_ thanks for attending
[19:18] GaborHojtsy_ I'll try to make this happen every 2 weeks
[19:18] GaborHojtsy_ and we'll see if it helps pick up some more interest
[19:19] GaborHojtsy_ in the meantime, review welcome on http://drupal.org/node/1260534#comment-5411310 issues
[19:19] Druplicon http://drupal.org/node/1260534 => META-META: Make language support awesome in Drupal 8 => Drupal core, language system, normal, active, 29 comments, 13 IRC mentions
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[19:21] =-= GaborHojtsy_ is now known as GaborHojtsy
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[19:27] GaborHojtsy night!
[19:27] Druplicon Have a good night, GaborHojtsy! Thanks for joining the party!