April Meeting: Multi-domain, Multi-lingual Drupal 6 & DC Roundup

Events happening in the community are now at Drupal community events on www.drupal.org.
eliza411's picture
Start: 
2009-04-08 18:00 - 20:00 America/Los_Angeles
Organizers: 
Event type: 
User group meeting

Richard and Katrin from One Economy will take a deep look at www.thebeehive.org – an ambitious multi-domain, multi-lingual drupal 6 project expertly knitted together by Katrin from a host of contributed and custom modules and some very clever theming. Katrin will answer the complicated technical questions while Richard will cover the softer aspects of drupal project management and interject snarky asides regarding ‘the drupal way’.

Jonathan Hedstrom from OpenSourcery quickly highlight some of the things he's super excited about from DrupalCon DC, Reusable Features in Drupal and Solr Search, then open it up for other attendees to do the same, facilitating general discussion and questions. We'd love to have DrupalCon attendees post links to their favorite sessions here so that anyone inclined to watch them before the discussion has the chance.

This week we're heading to the Lucky Lab at 1945 NW Quimby for after-meeting food and beer.

We meet at the OpenSourcery offices at 1636 NW Lovejoy St. Portland, OR 97209. NOTE: Please be aware that the developers at OpenSourcery will be working right up to event time. We ask that you arrive between 5:50pm and 6:00pm. Thank you!

Comments

some my DrupalCon highlights

levelos's picture

Looking forward to it Richard and Katrin. I was lucky enough to attend DrupalCon and would be happy to discuss/share what I learned. Some of my favorites:

  • State of Drupal, Dries
  • Why I Hate Drupal, Walkah
  • Totally Rocking Your Development Environment
  • Advanced Ubercart Usage
  • Drupal as a GeoCMS
  • A Paradigm for Reusable Drupal Features
  • Lev Tsypin


    ThinkShout, Inc.
    thinkshout.com | twitter.com/levelos

    Why I Hate Drupal,

    mikey_p's picture

    Why I Hate Drupal, Walkah

    Really? I still don't see how that can be constructive.

    In my opinion two reasons.

    levelos's picture

    In my opinion two reasons. One is to know what types of projects Drupal is good for, it's certainly not a one size fits all solution for all use cases. E.g., Imagine developing Twitter using Drupal. Possible, yes. Wise choice, I don't think so. Two, even if using Drupal, it's important to keep in mind it's weaknesses.

    I actually submitted a proposal for OS Bridge along these lines, "Drupal, what is it good for ...".

    Also, it's just a darn entertaining presentation; James is a great speaker.

    Lev Tsypin


    ThinkShout, Inc.
    thinkshout.com | twitter.com/levelos

    Counterpoint to "Why I Hate Drupal"

    wonder95's picture

    FWIW, Károly Négyesi (aka chx) did not like the presentation at all, and wrote a counterpoint to it on his blog.

    I actually submitted a

    mikey_p's picture

    I actually submitted a proposal for OS Bridge along these lines, "Drupal, what is it good for ...".

    Awesome! There is a huge need for this. Just keep it factual and constructive, and it'll be immensely popular.

    To me, the ideal metaphor for this would be a job interview, you want to be straightforward, detail your strengths, be honest about your shortcomings, but overall positive. Don't glorify the negative aspects (which is what I think James missed).

    After just spending three

    nonsie's picture

    After just spending three days trying to teach someone with programming background 'the Drupal way' of doing things I can see the point more clearly. Drupal at the moment is not very transparent. Blame it on the UI or something else the fact is it has a very steep learning curve.
    However Drupal is what we make it to be. There is a gap between users and developers at the moment but adding easy click and point interfaces, however difficult they might be at the fist glance, should help us out there.

    I'm in the middle on this

    grantkruger's picture

    I'm in the middle on this one (though I suspect I'm really in complete agreement with mikey_p). On the one hand, I'm fed up with all the "drama" panel titles at tech conferences that lure you in with a BS sales-pitch title and then turn out to be dull and never live up to the hype, or are misleading and turn out to be about something else entirely. This is no surprise because they are really just another kind of lie. They should just say what the damned panel is about and quit the BS. On the other hand Walkah is a known commodity and deeply entrenched in the Drupal community. Further, I believe Joomla and Plone are also excellent CMS and there are other up-and-comers. I also think Wordpress is leading on the usability front. For most of us we have to pick one and I think Drupal is the best overall, but we should never be blind to its limitations. There's no such thing as the perfect CMS and certainly no such thing as the perfect CMS for any particular organization. And there never will be. The more you know about the limitations of the tool/s you use, the better you can work around them, overcome them... or fix them (hey, that's the real secret of Drupal right there).

    It should also be remembered that Drupal 7 is going to fix a lot of the usability issues within Drupal. You could argue that usability is the biggest focus of Drupal 7. To quote the Wikipedia Drupal article (hehe, yes I'm going to), "According to Dries Buytaert, Drupal 7 won't be released until 90% of the [usability] problems identified by the University of Minnesota and the University of Baltimore are solved." Quite a change from the approaches of before and a sign that they're taking this very seriously.

    Here's the current criticism section of the Drupal article, and remember that Wikipedia is just another publicly-editable wiki, so if you feel that the criticism or the article are incomplete then simply edit it and add what you think needs to be there (though it is a "pedia" too, so it's not subjective and you may need references).

    Criticism

    • Usability: Some aspects of Drupal's administration interface can be confusing and intimidating, particularly for new administrators. According to the Interaction Design and Information Architecture program at the University of Baltimore, Drupal lacks an intuitive, easy administration user interface. The administration area is regarded as clunky and cryptic with Drupal version 5 and 6, but improved ease of use is planned with the upcoming version 7. According to Dries Buytaert, Drupal 7 won't be released until 90% of the problems identified by the University of Minnesota and the University of Baltimore are solved. Usability will be one of the main improvements in Drupal 7 that will close the gap with easier CMSs.
    • Learning curve: Drupal may be powerful, but it is also complex. The key is overcoming its steep initial learning curve. Most casual users are willing to sacrifice features for ease of use making Drupal less popular than more user-friendly CMSs despite its enhanced functionality.
    • Backward Compatibility: Drupal is constantly changing and it is a tenet of the design team that backward compatibility be avoided if it hinders new features or even the aesthetics of the code. Often version changes (even at the minor digit) are not compatible with the previous version. This means that Drupal developers may be required to re-work all of their previous code. However, from an end-user perspective, while the programmatic internals of Drupal may drastically change, Drupal Web sites themselves should be automatically upgraded in newer versions and continue to run seamlessly with minimal administrator involvement.

    Sala kahle,
    Grant

    what's in a name?

    levelos's picture

    I think this is a great dialogue and Grant makes some good points. I disagree on one, though. The mere fact that we're having this discussion is a testament to the efficacy of Jame's topic title. Stirring the pot is the best way to get a discussion going and make people step outside of their entrenched view points. If we all thought Drupal was perfect, it would never get any better! Also, when submitting a proposal to a conference, you need to sell your idea, and a catchy title goes along way. If I'm fortunate enough to present at OS Bridge, I will certainly do my best to keep it factual and informative.

    Lev Tsypin


    ThinkShout, Inc.
    thinkshout.com | twitter.com/levelos

    I agree with you... except

    grantkruger's picture

    I agree with you... except for one major point: It worked in this case, but for every topic that works there are a dozen that just end up being annoying. I wish everyone's topics were in the class you mention... but sadly they are not. I'll for damn sure come see yours though.

    Sala kahle,
    Grant

    Open Source Bridge "Spam" Prevention

    grantkruger's picture

    Oh I love it! When you submit a proposal to Open Source Bridge you have to check a box indicating that you agree with the following: I know that Open Source Bridge is not the appropriate place for commercial promotion ("spam") of a product, service or solution and this not welcomed by the audience.

    Superb!

    Sala kahle,
    Grant

    Wow! I am really excited by

    eliza411's picture

    Wow! I am really excited by A Paradigm for Reusable Drupal Features. I hope it doesn't get lost here in the the Why I Hate Drupal discussion.

    The Reusable Drupal Features is about taking all the painstaking work done to create something with Views, CCK, and other UI features and turning it into reusable code.

    missed meeting

    levelos's picture

    I had to miss last nights meeting, didn't realize it was the first night of Passover, sorry, although it was my loss ;) I'd love to hear how the meeting went and would be happy to discuss more DrupalCon, or anything else, on or off line.

    Lev Tsypin


    ThinkShout, Inc.
    thinkshout.com | twitter.com/levelos

    I can relate

    johnhanley's picture

    The title "Why I Hate Drupal" is obviously meant to be provocative, but I can relate to the sentiment.

    I cut my teeth on Drupal 4.6 and back then you had to jump through so many damn hoops to get the thing to behave and function properly. I really did hate Drupal at times.

    I then endured and persevered Drupal 4.7 and finally became a full-fledged fanboy with the arrival of Druapl 5. Fast forward to Drupal 6 and life is wonderful.

    Well, sort of. Now, for completely different reasons, I still sometimes hate Drupal. I resent all the overhead and bloat the enhanced infrastructure has created. CCK and Views are fantastic, but they have also made some developers very lazy and complacent. Where's the constraint and discipline? Since when is 100's of queries per page load considered "best practice"? Since when is driving from Portland to Salem for a loaf of bread (instead of your local super market) considered the most efficient route? And throwing more hardware at the application is not always the answer.

    I am sometimes asked by other developers, "What's the standard suite of modules (besides core) you like to start every project with?" My answer is "none". I like to let the content drive the technology (i.e. which modules to use.)

    Please, no flames. I love Drupal (mostly) and am just sharing my observations of why the "Why I Hate Drupal" topic is relevant. The speaker is obviously passionate about Drupal and only wants to make it better otherwise he wouldn't have bothered (other than just to be controversial, which doesn't seem to be his intent.)

    I don't mind a constructive

    mikey_p's picture

    I don't mind a constructive discussion on making Drupal better. Even if the title was "Which parts of Drupal suck?" it would have made more sense. As it was though, the name, and the contents of the talk amount to basic trolling for a response, which the author seemed to receive. There was an overall lack of concrete examples, just as with bacteria man's response above.

    And no, the topic of "Why I Hate Drupal" isn't relevant, "What I am trying to change in Drupal" or "What needs to be changed" is relevant. If you really truly, "hate" Drupal, then you would use something else, or make some attempt to change it.

    Of the individuals in this thread that seem to be interested in this topic I only counted 4 issues that they have been involved with in the Drupal core issue queue, and no issues within the last year.

    This whole idea of "hating Drupal" within the Drupal community needs to go away, it's simply inflammatory and nothing else.

    Hating Drupal

    webavant's picture

    Just to get this out of the way, I love Drupal! I understand why people disagree with Walkah including the words "I hate Drupal" in his session title. If you watch the session I think you'll see that he obviously loves Drupal (why else would he contribute so much?).

    Most of us have spent a lot of time following blogs, posting comments, twittering and chatting on IRC about Drupal. We all know that there is a lot of false speculation and a tiny bit of deserved negativity in regard to the subject at hand. I think what Walkah is doing is trying to relate to that negativity in an attempt to persuade naysayers to relate to Drupal. Does this blatant disdain for Drupal perpetuate such negativity? I imagine that he probably drew a lot of attention from the naysayers who may have discovered from his presentation that Drupal does have a lot of positive applications for anyone, be it a casual developer or hard-core coder with no prior exposure to Drupal. During his delightful song-and-dance he pointed out a lot of Drupal's shortcomings, but he also exposed a lot of its best features while exposing the Drupal community's excellent sense of humor.

    Sounds like it was a great

    grantkruger's picture

    Sounds like it was a great panel. I still need to make some time and watch some of the DrupalCon video.

    Grant

    Sala kahle,
    Grant

    Powerpoint slides from this Meeting - NOT

    RichardTammar's picture

    well - I tried to attach my slides to this comment, but the attempt failed, without obvious error. perhaps the file was too big? I'm speculating. gosh I love drupal!

    Royal fail trying to upload

    nonsie's picture

    Royal fail trying to upload a pdf as well. Here's a link to it though

    Bummed I missed it

    emptyvoid's picture

    I really wanted to go to this month's meeting I wanted to hear the presentation on "Why I hate Drupal", and the Beehive project. Sadly the earlier time locked me out of going.. I had to work late.

    Really it is hard for me to get off work early enough to go to any meeting before 6:00 or 7:00 PM.. Anyone else have problems getting there early?

    Robert Foley Jr
    Application Architect
    http://www.robertfoleyjr.com || http://www.swipht.com

    Robert Foley Jr
    Solutions Architect
    http://www.robertfoleyjr.com

    Where did you see an earlier

    eliza411's picture

    Where did you see an earlier time? (I'll definitely correct it, but I don't see the reference). We started, and will continue to start, at 6:00 like usual. And of course it's okay to come late. We just have to be careful not to disturb the OpenSourcery folks by showing up too early.

    Portland (Oregon)

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