Integrating external sites

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pmackay's picture

There are an increasing number of sites focussed on sharing/exchanging/swapping items and skills, which are great Transition features. What are our thoughts on integrating these sites into Transition Drupal, or would it be preferable to build in the features directly?

http://www.ecomodo.com/
http://www.thingloop.com/

See http://www.worldchanging.com/archives/011171.html for links to more US sites.

Comments

Pros and Cons of External Services

aangel's picture

I'd like to see us take the best systems out there and copy them by writing our own code. None of these systems are terribly complicated.

Some pros to this are:
* we get exactly what we think a Transition community would need, and nothing else that might be confusing
* we are more resilient (i.e. we don't become dependent on an external company possibly going bankrupt)
* single sign on (don't have to ask users to create accounts at many external sites each offering the one feature we are missing)
* integration with existing user data and community data
* might avoid an additional cost at some point if the external service needs to become cash-flow positive (like what happened to ning.com)

Some cons to this are:
* takes more time to get the feature rolled out
* external companies may add (additional useful) features faster than we can

I wanted to tackle a community resources/sharing module right after getting the ET phone home module working. My thinking was to get it including in v1.0.

Did you have any other external services you were eyeing? (I like rideamigos.com for ride sharing....very nice implementation).

We should create a list of each of the top players in each category of major feature (ride sharing, garden planning, etc.) so that developers can examine each site to pick the best implementation.

For now as people come across them they could just add a message to this thread so that they are recorded somewhere.


Andre Angelantoni
Founder, PostPeakLiving.com

Divvy.com

aangel's picture

Like this:

www.Divvy.com
Share items or events, collect money from sharees.


Andre Angelantoni
Founder, PostPeakLiving.com

work with Ecomodo

Meriel's picture

Hi,

I am co-founder of Ecomodo and a supporter of the Transition movement.

We're already working with several UK Transition Towns who have set up lending circles on Ecomodo.

Sites in this space vary wildly. Most are very simple listings sites which would be very quick to reproduce but based on our research and experience will not be sufficient to encourage the mass public to start sharing assets. Sharing of assets in this way is far more complex than just listings. We have spent over 2 years identifying the barriers to sharing and potential solutions and working through the associated legal minefield in terms of liabilities and privacy. We have built a complete transaction lifecycle which not only tracks what's happening but also ensures satisfied lenders and borrowers by letting lenders charge (for either themselves or a good cause), handling deposits, providing insurance and dealing with any disputes. We have a concept of lending circles whereby people can join and set up circles they are comfortable lending and borrowing within. This is not an ecommerce activity, it requires a whole different set of functionality and a very different User Experience.

Working with us has zero cost to Transition (now and in the future). We have a sound business plan which revolves around taking a tiny commission from each paid transaction to cover our costs.

It would seem to make most sense to find ways to connect the work we've already put in with your plans. E.g. by building an app which can be used within your system.

Happy to talk more,

Meriel

Good work

aangel's picture

Hi, Meriel. Just took a look at your site, it looks like you've done a good job and you also raise some important issues.

Though I'm eager to hear other folks on the team chime in with their views, I'll provide some additional insight from someone who works in the software industry and has consulted to many startups as they have created their business model or were rolling out their product.

First, I should mention that we are due for the Second Great Internet Startup Shakeout within the next couple years. Having lived through the first one in 2000 (I was in the process of raising money for my own startup when the tech bubble burst), I know how quickly a relatively good economic context can become poor in just a few months. In this case we will go from a poor economic situation to a dire one.

The Ticking Startup Clock

But even without that every startup is in a race against time. Their monthly burn rate is comprised of money that goes toward in-house salaries, external consultants (lawyers, accountants, often programmers and graphic artists, if they aren't in-house) and marketing. Though it has never cost less to create a startup than it does today (see how inexpensively one can get a cloud setup for hosting, for instance), salaries are still a substantial cost. All this eats the startup capital each and every month.

Ad Supported Startups

If the startup is ad-supported, they have to get many eyeballs viewing the site to justify the price they charge advertisers. Typically they can't bring in decent advertising revenue until the site is already relatively successful or there is a lot of momentum that indicates that it will be successful. Right now online advertising is getting hammered as budgets are getting squeezed. True, some money is moving from TV and other media to online spending but that is overwhelmingly tending to go toward established, major sites.

Transaction Fee Supported Startups

Alternately, the startup could employ a transaction charge. Typically the transaction charge amounts to not much even with many transactions — it might be able to pay for the accountant to track it but only wildly successful sites make significant money from transaction fees and today that happens only if they meet the following criteria:

  • there are a lot of transactions
  • the average transaction amount is relatively significant, say > $100
  • the transaction fee is relatively significant, say 10% or greater on top of the credit card fees

One company that meets those criteria is elance.com. PayPal managed to do it with a different set of criteria but that was in an era long ago, there was no one else doing what they were doing and they were well funded.

Subscription Fee Supported Startups

Last, the startup could charge a monthly or annual fee. Meetup.com does this successfully by charging $12 per month if one purchases six months at a time. Right now, however, people are scouring their credit cards to remove recurring fees so the subscription model is getting hit hard.

Some companies attempt to accelerate their revenue by offering a one-time payment option and there is merit to that approach.

It's also possible to attempt a hybrid, like transaction fees and ad fees, and it's conceivable that people might be ok with the idea over time. However, usually users complain that they are seeing ads AND paying for the service via the transaction fee and want one or the other to be removed. This sort of hybrid is a tricky thing to pull off.

A Typical Startup

So let's say a startup has angel funding of $200,000. Getting the product out the door could take only half that if they are very parsimonious and one of the founders is also a software developer. That leaves $100,000 left to run the company while building customers. They must show some success or they will not receive next round of funding.

$100,000 goes very quickly, especially when the revenue for the first few years is basically negligible compared to how quickly money is going out the door. If everyone is on reduced salaries (and the founders are taking nothing, which is common until the next round comes in), they often have no more than 18 months before they are out of cash. And that is if they do little or no advertising. If they do significant advertising, the money goes in a flash.

Compounding the problem is that there is typically a rush of competitors all chasing the same people. My informal count is that there are about a dozen sharing sites all vying for this market. Which one(s) will survive this intense Darwinian selection process? Most will fail. One company might emerge the winner but the sector hasn't really proven itself so it's entirely possible that they all fail, especially with the trajectory I see for the economy. A good CEO will say that this sector's revenues should grow as the economy contracts but there is absolutely no guarantee of that.

Internet Usage on the Cusp of Decline?

My guess is that people are soon going to start disconnecting from the Internet as they look for ways to cut monthly expenses — or are forced to cut due to job loss. We are on our way to becoming that poor as a civilization. Already 40 million people in the United States are on the food stamp program and that is growing monthly, especially as the first crop of people completely exhaust their unemployment benefits with little or no hope of Congress extending them further (99 months). We are all going to be living in radically different countries just five years from now. The states are collectively $180 billion in the red and they can't print money like the Fed so they must cut employees — that's a hell of a lot of employee salaries on the chopping block. The UK has begun that process and Canada and Australia are behind but will catch up.

Many people might connect with their telephone and this is one bright spot to consider. But if poverty rates increase like a foresee even that will be be under pressure.

It's hard for people in the tech field to fathom the possibility of contraction and especially Internet usage contraction but that is often because they are caught in the "humanity always progresses" conversation.

The Partner's Dilemma

Let's say that a company does survive to the point that its revenues match its monthly expenses. How do early partners know which one? The partners are wise to see which company gets traction before becoming partners. The last thing they want is to invest a great deal of effort integrating with a partner and educating their users just to have the partner go belly up.

However the startups absolutely need the partnerships to get the traction. It's a lopsided situation far and way against the startup because the partners really don't need to do anything while the startups must sign up partners to bring users to the site. They must do this quickly before the capital runs out or the investors get impatient and withhold further money (sometimes withholding money they had even promised to provide at the outset if things got tough!).

Add to this the extra pressure that existing companies (like Meetup or Craigslist) could add the startup's feature to their existing service thus undercutting the need for their customers to look elsewhere to get a specific task accomplished.

Meriel, I honor the courage and drive it takes to create a startup. It's an experience like no other.

However, from my perspective, it would be most unwise for this project (Transition Drupal) to partner with any startup at this time and I strongly recommend against it. The potential benefits simply do not exceed the risks.

Again, other team members should chime in especially if they see something I've missed in my analysis.


Andre Angelantoni
Founder, PostPeakLiving.com

Brief response to Andre from Ecomodo

Meriel's picture

Hi Andre,

Thanks for your positive comments and detailed analysis.

I successfully ran a company through the .com crash so I know all too well the issues. You are right in so many ways about the difficulty of achieving and maintaining sustainability (in a financial sense). I also understand exactly your dilemma in working with a partner in a competitive space. All sensible comments.

All I would add is this:
- It took us well over 2 years to get to where we are and it will also take a team of volunteers even longer to do such a thorough job. In that time the market is taking shape and we all want people to be sharing assets. The time for community sharing is now.
- Your figures are not reflective of ours because we are not relying on 3rd party funding and our costs are not as you describe.
- The risk of working with a partner you think has the best chance of success vs the risk of investing so much of your own (and others') time must be considered. Why would you have a better chance of succeeding when you are entering a competitive space where there are already established sites (not yet but there will be before long)? Much better to focus on helping the concept succeed and to get people sharing assets more succesfully and quickly. Transition is about mass behaviour change not software development.

Focus on pulling together sites and services which support the Transition movement, writing new services where there are gaps.

Fascinating discussion though :-)

Meriel

Thanks for your reply

aangel's picture

Hi, Meriel.

Your comments are entirely valid however I'd like to point out some things.

"The risk of working with a partner you think has the best chance of success vs the risk of investing so much of your own (and others') time must be considered."

Identifying who has the best chance of success is exactly the problem, though, isn't it? You haven't really provided enough information to go on to assess your financial situation nor do I expect you to. So we don't have a way to assess the likelihood of your company becoming an ongoing concern much less becoming a market leader. From a partner's point of view I would want to know:

  • how much capital to you have? what is your burn rate?
  • what are your projected revenues and are you meeting your milestones thus far?
  • how do you intend to weather the next step down in the economy? And the one after that? And the one after that?
  • etc.

"Transition is about mass behaviour change not software development."

Yes — for our mutual customers — but not for the people who have come together to create an open-source project like this. Software development is exactly what we're here to do.

"It took us well over 2 years to get to where we are and it will also take a team of volunteers even longer to do such a thorough job."

Undoubtedly true...but it's not at all clear and won't be until work has begun studying this feature that what you have created is the minimum necessary to be useful to the community. What you've done might in fact be the magic sauce but it's often the case that several key features provide 80% of the benefit and those can often be rolled out relatively quickly.

We should also bear in mind that there is nothing stopping groups from using your service on their own right now. Integrating external services into this project (and thus implicitly endorsing them — to some people it will look like explicit endorsement, however) is the topic at hand.

-André


Andre Angelantoni
Founder, PostPeakLiving.com

Stepping out

Meriel's picture

Hi Andre,

I'll leave this with 2 comments:
1. We're really keen to continue working on an informal basis with Transition Towns. Everyone learns something from doing so and lessons learned can feed into your project. This benefits everyone.
2. If you did choose to take a partnership route then we'd be happy to have the relevant in-depth conversations.

Good luck with your project.

Meriel

Same to you!

aangel's picture

It was a pleasure conversing with you and thank you for allowing everyone to listen in.


Andre Angelantoni
Founder, PostPeakLiving.com

Synthesis

edmittance's picture

Hi all,

fascinating conversation there - really interested in your dialogue having seen the crash too :)

It's a topic the web project has been pondering for some time, finding our boundaries with all the amazing action out on the web (http://www.transitionnetwork.org/blogs/ed-mitchell/2010-02/social-networ...). And how we link up across the varying states of the different platforms that transitioners choose to use (it's not our choice - people will do their thing and that's a good thing in my book).

I see the points about centralisation as key, but also the benefits of de-centralisation. We cannot predict how things will pan out, financially, socially, or business-ically, so need to stay flexible.

I think the key is 'synthesis' between all the different activities and spaces. Between transition drupal and the transition network website for starters :) Where do they overlap? Conflict? Vy for attention? Collaborate? etc. The Transition Network website needs to hold the centralised directory of initiatives - how will that work with transition drupal (or ecomodo or wiser earth etc. etc.)? Merial - I think an app/API is absoutely vital like you :)

So work around an aggregation/sense-making/syndication function is key. We're getting an alpha version of Managing news installed on TN.org servers as we feel this is the key. Will keep you all informed.

Agree on this..

pmackay's picture

Aiming for synthesis, integration and diversity seems right to me, rather than taking one firm path. There are pros and cons both ways but do we need to choose just one or the other? At the level of a Transition site, wouldnt it be useful to find ways to integrate other services if a particular TI would like to use those, as well as an internal solution? Some groups may develop thriving communities using some of the external sites and would welcome integration. Wouldnt it be more resilient to offer options than only one way to do this?

On a more practical level, what would integration with a external sharing site look like? What work would be required by the Transition Drupal team and what could the external site provide that helps integration? I could imagine:

  • A simple link or image to the sharing network created on the external site. This could be configured by each TI as user data.
  • A block showing current items for lending, requested items, etc that would be visible on certain TI site pages.
  • Complete integration with the user sees full details of their lent/borrowed items while using the TI site. Only certain functions require jumping out to the external site.

On the issue of risk it's also fair to say that a purely open source solution has risk too, in that support for a feature may drop, people move on, etc.

Good clarification

aangel's picture

Paul, your clarification is welcome. I don't have any interest in foreclosing communities from using specific outside services, whether they be Flickr, Facebook or Ecomodo.

And if someone wants to make a connector to these new external services, great. That person could even be me, depending on the service. Nothing forestalls the company themselves creating a connector themselves, either, and posting it as a project on drupal.org.

What I'm referring to is much more specific. To me, a partnership is a very different animal in which the project itself puts its credibility and resources on the line by:
* including the connector with the distribution
* generally encourages communities to use a particular implementation over another
* and/or depends on the external service for a community to get a "complete implementation" of the project

On that score, I think the Drupal project itself is a good model to emulate: no formal partnerships but allow anyone to create any code they wish if it suits their purposes. The person who makes the connector provides support in the issue queue, people make "how to" videos and more. For instance, there is a very good module that connects Drupal to Facebook that is supported by the Knight Foundation.

But would I want to create a distribution in which Facebook integration were required for full functionality? I personally wouldn't. That should be up to a particular community. That's also why releasing a distribution that allows communities to experiment is also a very good way to go as opposed to starting off by offering a hosted solution right away, like ning.com.


Andre Angelantoni
Founder, PostPeakLiving.com

Freeconomy

aangel's picture

Was just sent an email pointing out this site:
http://www.justfortheloveofit.org

Another sharing service but no money changes hands in their model.

"There are now 20432 members in 142 countries sharing 330244 skills, 64919 tools and 327 spaces."

They enable sharing of skills, tools and spaces.


Andre Angelantoni
Founder, PostPeakLiving.com

There sure seems to be a

wesleymccullough's picture

There sure seems to be a swarm of these types of sites out there. Andre, I don't blame you for being skeptical about the longevity of any particular one. In fact, when I pitched the idea of a Transition website to some folks in my neighborhood, their immediate response was: "Oh no, not another tool-sharing website!"

At any rate, here's another one: www (dot) rentalic (dot) com (sorry, spam filter is not letting me post a link)

Very interesting debate

chrisdwells_'s picture

This was a really interesting conversation and after some thought, I wanted to add a couple of points of my own relating to the post I wrote on requirements after the IA Skype meeting:

  • I think an early and ongoing top-priority requirement for our TT network as well as many others in the early development stages is awareness-raising. With meagre or even non-existent budgets, many TTs simply don't have any resources to spare for advertising, outreach and PR. Therefore connecting with potentially large audiences on existing sites, whether those be Facebook-style social networks, or some sort of swapshop site as has been discussed here, would potentially be one effective method of building a larger cohort quickly and cheaply.
  • Might there be some benefit to be had from engaging with people like Meriel and others to establish what they could do to develop bridging modules, what we could do ourselves, were we to have more volunteer module developers and what the larger Drupal community may have already done to build bridging modules for some of these sites? For instance I believe there are already LETS scheme modules in existence...
  • While these aren't a priority for a beta or 1.0 release, perhaps it's something to add in for a phase 2 site plan?

integrating

edmittance's picture

I've just been at sunrise festival, transition tin village for 4 days. http://www.sunrisecelebration.com/#areas/village-green/transition-tin.php. Without boring you all to death with the astounding range of conversations I had with anarchist squatter activists on finding the edge between transition and hardocre activism, or the walkabout with permaculture god Patrick Wakefield, or making a clay pizza oven, it was very enlightening indeed.

I met Rosalie who is one of the forces behind http://ecomotion.org.uk/ and discussed how the sites could integrate a bit and look forward to more talks with her as we meet at this week's transition conference in the UK (along with you Chris :) as she also works on a EC sponsored youth engagement project - voices of transtion..

Working from the lifecylce idea we touche in in the IA skype up, initiatives will have different needs at different points in their lifecycles - at the beginning they just need a signpost on the web (hence the initiative directory and people map on TN.org), and much help with promotion. So at that point, hooks into facebook, wiser earth, ecomotion, permaculture association, 10:10, and other people directories would be invaluable as they raise awareness. Moving on from there, as the initiatives needs mature, they'll need more sophisticated publishing and co-ordination tools.

Hmm. I wondering Chris if we could use our time together at the conference to do some work on an initiative's lifecycle and patterns of need and map them to tools/integration points?

Awareness raising

aangel's picture

Chris and Ed: Except for Facebook, I suspect that not many people in any particular local community are members of those services you mention. With just a few exceptions (yelp.com, meetup.com, craigslist.org), my experience is that these services are all struggling to get critical mass in communities. Instead, their membership is comprised of a few people from this town, then a few from another town and so on across the country. Presumably if they stay in business long enough they could get excellent penetration.

Perhaps in the UK these services are doing better than over here?

I think Facebook is a strong possibility because penetration is high. But each of these other possible integrations should be scrutinized closely before embarking on an integration project. I've seen many integrations in my day fail to return value after much money and time was spent.

It would be good to get some idea of how many people are reachable through an integration before starting work. In the least that will help identify which integration to work on first. Establish some sort of methodology to run a potential integration through (assign points?) so that at the end you are able to make a "go, no-go" decision.

Jane Jacobs pointed out that the most effective way she found to organize was to inspire local shopkeepers to tell their clients about the activity at hand. Perhaps that will be the most effective way for Transition communities, too.


Andre Angelantoni
Founder, PostPeakLiving.com

social networks in use

edmittance's picture

good points. I've always thought that some simple 'badges' could be a good way to reflect activity across diferernt networks too..

for a rough idea, I did a basic word count from the qualitative responses from the survey last year and found this: slide 25/30 from the survey results:

http://www.slideshare.net/edmittance/transition-web-project-survey-prese...

and from the same survey: what initiatives thought were the most important communications tools: slide 16/30

:)

Response types

aangel's picture

For slide 25 did people write in their response or choose from a list? I suspect it makes a difference in how representative the list is (but perhaps some with formal polling experience can chime in here).


Andre Angelantoni
Founder, PostPeakLiving.com

response types

edmittance's picture

I gathered it from the sum of free text replies - so it's random but useful in a bigger picture...

chrisdwells_'s picture

Alright mate, yep, that all sounds like a right old giggle.

Seriously though, I think this is a great idea and would help the IA team draw up a first set of Site and Information architectures for the various stages of initiatives.

I've also tried to look a bit deeper into an online PR strategy which I can show you too.

Widgets, buttons or ads

chrisdwells_'s picture

Do you mean a widget like the one for http://twittercounter.com ? Or are you thinking of more of an ad banner that could promote Transition like an ad?

widgets

edmittance's picture

yeah - more widget than ad - something to reflect on activity from Tn.org or wherever into whichever social network we are trying to bridge into - could be easily driven by RSS from a news feed - like the delicious badges...

Drupal integration with Joomla?

John Davidson's picture

A couple of community transition groups in Ottawa (Canada) and Eastern Ontario are looking at the possibility of sharing arrangement under the umbrella of a Joomla-driven site to share hosting and technical costs. My question is: if they do go that route, are there ways of integrating some data/modules between Drupal and Joomla platforms, such as event calendars, or information resources? / jd (Transition Ottawa)

Keynote link


Andre Angelantoni
Founder, PostPeakLiving.com

Joomla and Drupal

aangel's picture

Hi, John.

Simple things can be shared between the sites like feeds and if we bundle information into RDF ("Resource Description Framework" see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resource_Description_Framework) possibly more resources will be sharable, too.

However, the modules used by the two platforms are completely different and are not compatible with each other. It's highly unlikely that modules made for this project will be ported to run in Joomla. Choosing Drupal is one of those core technology decisions that shape the entire project.

The Transition UK and Transition US sites are both in Drupal.

Given that this project is also based on Drupal and it's unlikely another project with the resources that are joining this one is going to form to do the same thing for Joomla and Transition, you may want to suggest to those groups that they reconsider the Joomla platform.

BTW, I have nothing against Joomla; I've never used it but I know many people like it and it too has a robust community. It seems to be in the running for the winner-take-all filtering process that often happens in technology. See Dries' keynote for more on the market position of the top three open-source CMSs, currently held by Wordpress, Joomla and Drupal. The whole keynote is very worth watching but skip to 34:07 where he tackles this particular topic if you are pressed for time.


Andre Angelantoni
Founder, PostPeakLiving.com

Thanks for this, Angel.

John Davidson's picture

Thanks for this, Angel. Fascinating, frank - talk by Dries. / jd