Sexism and Mountains out of Molehills
I feel like I need to centralize a public discussion on what's been going on today, as a lot of people weren't there and are wondering what happened.
In Dries' keynote yesterday, he was talking about how Drupal might look in 2020. He was making some silly scenarios, you can watch the keynote if you want to hear it all. One of the scenarios was that maybe we'll be big enough by 2020 to have Druplicon involved in a sex scandal (and a slide that was a little racy, but on the comedic side). But then he said (and I believe this was an ad lib) something to the effect of: that we'd better get some more women involved by then to make that possible (paraphrased - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjAyIXGNN7o 6:07 onward for the actual segment).
Of course, I instantly sighed partly because I was surprised and disappointed that Dries would say something like that in his keynote, but partly because I also have seen how these things escalate.
The thing is, I am 100% confident that Dries did not have any intent on alienating the women community members, or members of the Drupalchix Solidarity Committee and Allied Auxiliary Service (ie. male allies). I don't actually think Dries is really sexist, and I know for sure how much he values the women contributors in the community.
The reason several of the women responded (mostly via Twitter) to this was to speak out on the impacts of those kinds of comments (there was also a stereotype about moms being less technically inclined, which some people also found inappropriate), and that it's important to be more aware of what statements like that can do. I think webchick's comment on chx's post from today sums it up quite well, so I won't bother reiterating. (Addi's post from a couple years back also addresses this sort of stuff well) - and if you have a bit more time, webchick did a fantastic talk on women in open source at OpenWeb Vancouver last year: http://webchick.net/files/videos/women-in-open-source-owv09.flv
But where it went wrong is where a few people in the community turned this molehill into a mountain by telling us we were overreacting or being ridiculous, telling us how dare we speak, and worse things...
I hope indeed that this can be seen as a learning experience for community leaders of all levels, and not as an opportunity to attack people in the community for speaking out about what standards they believe the leaders should be held to, as well as how they feel when they make mistakes.
Everyone is human and allowed to make a faux pas now and then, but I personally would rather push them to learn from it and not repeat the mistake, than to be silent and internalize my disappointment. What I don't accept is people telling me and my colleagues that we don't have the right to speak our opinion, and spewing hate towards us for doing just that.
Hear hear!
I couldn't have said it better myself, by a long shot. Diplomacy not being one of my strong points...
Builder of Drupal sites and modules - http://poplarware.com
Drupal Documentation team leader - http://drupal.org/contribute/documentation
It is a time for calm
The best way to destroy a community: find a topic not relevant to priority tasks at hand and make a decisive stand ... then be loud.
Is a Drupal conference the end-all-be-all to resolve this global issue? I've seen the "L" word used consistently on Twitter this morning ... was sexual orientation even part of the gaff?
We all have strong opinions, we all bring diversity to the table, we all have an opinion about this subject. Now that its all been aired, and most of us know where we stand in relationship to the issue, let's get back why we have drupalcon: code and community.
Joe
@drupaltips
Community
Joe:
I'm going to assume good faith, because I think it takes some guts to respond in a heated situation. I also fundamentally agree that "We all have strong opinions, we all bring diversity to the table." But your comment is dismissive. Whether you deliberately did wanted to or not, you're using silencing tactics which are harmful in situations like this.
Thanks
Hi, thanks. To clarify, I didn't mean this was irrelevant, or that we should "thought police" or silence anyone/or the group.
Healthy, open-ended, respectful conversation about such matters is important for any community. edit to add: And we have blog posts from both "sides". However, what has erupted since then is a distraction of angry comments from many (on both "sides"). I'm not advocating silence, but I do suggest we consider a more appropriate venue and timing so that the goals of drupalcon itself are not derailed.
Joe
this is slightly off topic
but that geekfeminism wiki is rad. I've read a few papers on the ways complaints about sexual harassment dissipate within certain institutions, but I'm loving how this wiki community documents and analyzes very current incidents. thank you for that!
This is the Task at Hand
The task at hand is to Grow Drupal.
To Grow Drupal we need to spread an appreciation for Drupal.
To do that, we need to grow a positive and welcoming community that will bring in all people - not just more of the same. New perspectives, new ways of doing things, and new ideas. The great strength of drupal is that if you have a new idea on how something can be done, you can create a module or theme that does it and share it around. We're all about the sharing. :)
As such, we've got to be welcoming to everyone, and part of that is by debugging our social structures just like we debug the code. Many eyes remove bugs, but many eyes also can be turned on our assumptions and community to help make it more welcoming.
Dries said something which is offensive to some people, and they spoke up, and that's good - people like to see that a community is willing to examine itself. Or at least, I do. Now we're having to work out secondary rumbles - people responding to people's original remarks, either evenly or roughly. It's not going to go away, and asking for it to go away is like asking the security team to stop bugging you about that unchecked user text you display in your module. If it doesn't seem important to you, it's a little more productive to hold off and watch - you can start to pick up on why it's important.
But it is important that people feel safe with Drupal, both with putting forth their opinions and with hearing others opinions.
-john
I hope indeed that this can
The Drupal community is one of the most amazing open source communities I've ever seen, there is a degree of maturity in communications by members that is simply wonderful, and inviting. I love how you've said it here, this should be talked about openly, frankly and learned from.
I am looking forward to Dries response and the lessons learned from this. IMO this is an opportunity to make US an even better community.
Jon
Great post
Great post... Drupal is a community effort and concerns should be dealt with respectfully. Some of the responses condemning criticism of Dries's keynotes have surprised me.
Thanks Jennifer and Jon. I
Thanks Jennifer, Jon, and Mike. I agree Jon, our community already is pretty fantastic when it comes to these things, but there is room for improvement yet.
Personally, I've had great experiences with almost all the community members, regardless of gender. Some of the most intense and competent core devs have taken time to help me out in my early days when I was this random new non-technical person in the community, and I was shocked at how little sexism I've experienced personally. But I know others haven't been as fortunate - I'd love to see a day where this isn't a concern at all anymore.
Ext237 - Just because something is not relevant to you or your task doesn't make it irrelevant. This is part of working on building the community, making it a more comfortable place for all contributors, regardless of their gender.
Co-lead of Docs Team
I make the awesome at http://affinitybridge.com
"others haven't been as fortunate..."
Well, it's my first DrupalCon, and it did cost me a lot of effort to come here.
And the reason I came was not only to learn more about Drupal, but to experience the great Drupal community I heard about so many times. So yes, you can imagine I'm not impressed. Same old same old...
I'm "big" enough to understand, that one person doesn't make the whole community.
Everybody can make mistake. And I can even believe that Dries didn't have an intention to insult women, moms and old people... But he should be "big" enough as well to admit his mistake or at least react to the critics...
Bogumila Sobolewska
www.bogumila.nl
I agree.
Hi, thanks. My comment didn't intend to say it was irrelevant. Its very relevant. However, save for your posting, the methods of discussion so far (calling names and telling people they "don't belong in the community") in blogs and twitter feeds is not contributing to a healthy conversation or community building.
My call for calm is for for people to focus on drupalcon, focus on the community, and have a healthy, inviting conversation after everyone's head is clear.
I'm starting to wonder how many people are going to start deleting some of these hateful, name-calling tweets once they realize they have climbed up a molehill. Everyone has had their say, lets see how organizational leaders follow up on the gaff -- and meanwhile enjoy the week as a diverse and unique community.
Yeeha!
Couldn't agree more. Look around us! Great people, great projects and at least 100 reasons to be smiling over the one that brings a frown. Roll on Thursday...
I'm sorry, but anyone who
I'm sorry, but anyone who posts exclusionary, hate-filled rants against another demographic (and then dismisses their argument entirely, because, hey, they're mostly lesbians anyway) clearly DOESN'T belong in the community...by virtue of the fact that they're effectively opting out of it by posting that sort of thing.
Folks can blog about how they hate women or gays all they like, but nobody should expect to be welcomed with open arms for that kind of behaviour. Bigotry has no place in the Drupal community, and a stern, "tch, Dries, seriously?" was exactly the correct response to his joke. I don't think anyone imagines Dries is some kind of raving misogynist, but that doesn't mean he or his words should be immune to criticism.
A healthy community is one where problematic language can be criticized and discussed without fear of vitriolic hate-mongering in response, and it alarms me that there exist people among us who thought posting such a thing would in any way be accepted by the majority. Is that really a viewpoint that can even be represented in the aforementioned healthy, inviting conversation?
offensive not!
ok, I didn't go to Copenhagen, but just watched the "offending" video. As a woman I didn't find this offensive. It seems to me that ceo's, mothers and brothers were lumped in together as non-technical. Did anyone notice the Dries' thick accent - English is not his native language folks, no disrespect intended. I met Dries once briefly at SanFran drupalcon, during a party when a group of people were hovering around him. The man's a doll, very kind to strangers and not in a weird way. As far as sexism in the drupal community, this sex-scandal slide sure wasn't an example of it.
Instead disturbing behavior I've witnessed are comments from other men over the years, or walking into an un-conference sitting down and trying to be friendly and join the discussion while the group of American english speaking men look visibly uncomfortable like an alien has landed at their table - that experience was a lot more thought provoking than a european guy attempting a joke. Funny thing is drupal now has a sex-scandal...well sort of anyway...
offense is not the same as disappointment
I didn't read any of the reactions as "offense." People were disappointed. One person was "pissed." After I watched the video, I was embarrassed... like I was watching a blooper video where the man falls off the bicycle into the swimming pool and hurts himself. BONK! (But I also knew how it would end up before I started watching.)
Sexism doesn't always provoke offense. Maybe some people were offended! Maybe some people can manage their reaction to it without being offended. But I don't think an incident has to offend women to qualify as sexism.
Your story is a good example? Sexism can also disturb, discomfort, and alienate.
Everyone hug. Now back to
Everyone hug. Now back to Drupal!
This is a nice round-up post!
This is a nice round-up post! Thanks arianek.
Personally I think that like webchick says, Dries is not sexist, and he didn't intend to offend or alienate anyone from the community, he just used a way of explaining it that in some people's mind was not appropriate. We have to remember we are an international community from all backgrounds and with completely different contexts. Simple lines of language mean one thing to one person and something completely different to someone else and I think in meet ups like this we have to work on the benefit of the doubt.
From what Dries said, I understood the message that "We need more women in the Drupal Community". This for me is 1) True and 2) the complete opposite of sexism but an important mention of a failure in the balance of the group. So his methodology doesn't work with some people. We all have a different way to get our message across.
There are some people I know who say "F*ck you" when I see them, its just their way of showing they love me. Not everything is as it seems.
Those that are spitting and shouting should take a breath, look around them and see that if there really was evil in our midst, its soon ousted out by that immense majority of truly great people. Leader or not, Dries is human and has given a lot to everyone here - surely he deserves the benefit of the doubt?
So his methodology doesn't
The basic problem is that his methodology doesn't work with the very audience we are trying to attract. If we're actually genuine about wanting to increase the Drupal project's diversity, which of course Dries is and all the rest of us are (save a few loud and breath-takingly shameful trolls), you can't dismiss this as mere "eh, we all interpret things a bit differently. c'est la vie." Doing so sends a very loud and clear message that women are not welcome in this community, which couldn't be further from the truth.
Oh, and on this...
I've read almost all of the comments related to this debate, and I don't recall reading any that implied anything remotely approaching "Dries is evil." I think everyone understands that this was a blunder by an otherwise great leader, and that actual "meat" of his message was really awesome stuff. At least that's certainly how I feel.
What I do read, though, is frustration that someone in his position -- Drupal project lead, President of the Drupal Association, keynote speaker at THE international & professional Drupal event of the year -- does stuff like this, because when it directly works against the goal we're all trying to achieve of making the Drupal project more open and welcoming to everyone, including women. Especially when subsequently, anonymous wack-jobs come out of the woodwork to mount personal attacks, as tends to happen whenever someone gets called out on offending people.
Yes... sorry I think the
Yes... sorry I think the paragraph is misleading reading back. They are two very separate sentences - the "evil" I was referring to are specifically the "wack-jobs" that you mention, not Dries :)
And otherwise, you are right. I just fear that if we don't have a relaxed notion to the what people think or feel compared to what comes out of their mouths, we'll have a reason to be offended by most people. I mean, to come across as "directly working against the goal we're all trying to achieve" when he's actually trying to "make the Drupal project more open and welcoming to everyone" means that there's some pretty huge mis-interpretation going on, at the same time as being a bad choice of language/communication.
I guess the most upsetting thing for me was reading comments like "f*ck the drupal community" based on the "wack-jobs" that appeared due to the (I am sure) innocent intentions of its leader. The community should be worth more than that kind of instant dismissal and the intentions should too.
Come for the software, stay for the community
The way I see it, we're here to do two things: 1) Create good, useful software and 2) treat each other well. "Drupal", hopefully, means doing both.
What Dries said didn't live up to the standard of treating each other well, whatever his intentions. The defensive commentary of several men has, as often happens, been an example of treating each other poorly. And alienating potential contributors to Drupal does not serve the goal of creating good technology.
When a situation like this comes up -- like the awkward, sexist joke made in a very public venue -- it isn't making a mountain out of a molehill to suggest that we can do better at being welcoming and open, and taking women's voices seriously.
@davideads and @bsobolewska -
@davideads and @bsobolewska - Just to be clear, if you read my post at the top, the mountain out of a molehill situation i'm describing isn't the reaction from the women to Dries' blunder.
The mountain out of the molehill is the ridiculously escalated reaction from the couple of people who said very awful things on their blog/Twitter about the women in the community.
@ext237 - DrupalCon is actually a great place to have this conversation, having so many community members centralized, it makes for easy face-to-face discussion about underlying cultural issues in the community. And I honestly don't think this is preventing anyone from going to sessions, and working on Drupal, so the con is no excuse not to have the discussion...
Co-lead of Docs Team
I make the awesome at http://affinitybridge.com
Healthy communities...
I'm sorry if I was unclear -- I definitely don't think calling someone out respectfully for saying something offensive and unwise is making a mountain out of a molehill. My point was that those who are being dismissive in various ways (i.e. "let's just get back to working on Drupal") and those who are attacking and accusing women in the community of being "thought police" are ignoring the ideal within the Drupal world that it is a community.
It is disappointing (if not surprising) that when women say this about sexism in the community, their concerns are dismissed, mocked, or attacked.
One of the best definitions I've heard of a healthy community is that healthy communities have the arguments they need to have with themselves. There should always be space to say "this isn't right" and "we can do better" -- not just in terms of code, but in terms of racism, sexism, and other alienating and exclusive behavior. Even in response to the big goofy Belgian who got the ball rolling.
I believe that by framing what we mean by "Drupal" in terms of both the software and community can help remind us why this matters.
Ah, I get it, did
Ah, I get it, did misunderstand a bit. I totally agree in that case. :)
Co-lead of Docs Team
I make the awesome at http://affinitybridge.com
Lost in the fooflah
I don't believe Dries is sexist. I was disappointed at the slide. Seriously, haven't the guys in tech got the point yet: using sex (or half naked women) in your presentations always fails? Do we really have to pander to the audience in this way?
Disappointed in slide, but that didn't bother me as much as what I felt to be the real issue: I truly believe that Dries believes that women in tech, or women interested in tech, will continue to decline; that if the Drupal community wants to attract women, it won't be women as developers. This wasn't helped by the follow on discussions about low level Moms and the tupperware party slide.
If true, such assumptions are disquieting. Disturbing. And such assumptions are what we should be discussing.
Several statistics imply that women in tech are declining
Shelleyp has some really good points. However, I'd like to address the issue of women in tech declining. There are a number of data points that imply that the percentage of women in tech, particularly computer-related tech is declining. The US National Center for Women in Information Technology's report shows a decline of both women in IT and women entering CS programs. A good summary is in this article. This isn't universally true, I understand that India and several Middle Eastern countries have better equality (or dominance ) in the percentage of women entering IT. In the US, a larger percentage of women than leave the IT field then men and a larger percentage of women leave the employ of large companies to be self-employed (which keeps them in the field but may limit their ability to attend events like DrupalCon.) I think this is unfortunate, but it's a trend that we need to be aware of (as Dries seems to be), in considering diversity in tech communities.
On the other hand, to balance the gender gap in the community is one of the worst reasons to involve non- or less-technical people in the Drupal (or any tech related) community and if that was what Dries meant (I wasn't there, haven't watched the video and I'm certainly not privy to his thoughts), that is unfortunate. There are a lot of reasons to involve the less- and non-technical in Drupal (and similar projects that provide services and tools used outside the tech community) and I think any discussion of that is valuable. I hope we can start involving more people interested solely in the content publishing and/or sharing that Drupal makes possible. I think Drupal's possibilities for such people (and while I'm a programmer, sometimes I fall in that category too) are one of the more exciting things about Drupal and their involvement will allow Drupal to meet those possibilities.
Exactly
Thanks Juli for posting that article. NCWIT is a cool organization that does a lot of really awesome work.
As a developer, this is one of my primary motivating factors for teaching open source & teaching the skills necessary to become an open source developer. I cannot continue to think about working another 10 years as the only female developer in sight. The more technical I have gotten, the more drastically unrealistic are my opportunities to write code with not just women, but with anyone who doesn't fit the traditional developer mold.
Though reading online & going to a few conferences related to this stuff, I learned that there are some practical things researchers have found that attract & retain new participants to computer science/tech work. I stress new 'participants', because some of these tactics attract women, people from a wide range of cultural backgrounds, and men who are only part-geek. Most of these tips are for a classroom context:
Translated to Drupal:
About 'safe'
Some people don't like 'safe' - or rather, they might already feel safe and so taking the time to make space safe feels like a waste of time. To me, it is an investment opportunity. For one, I want to know if it's worth my time to hang out with Drupal for the long-run.
It isn't worth it to me to invest a big chunk of my life somewhere where the community can't expand. (Big chunk of life = 'mountain' not 'molehill', right?) So I agree with with bangpound was saying about how some of us might feel really disappointed about missed opportunities to reach out & pull more people in. Lots of us work really hard to bring in new developers, help with Drupal, improve our skills, mentor others, write documentation, do training, plan events. Many people want to be more technical, but time & lack of mentors & role models is a big issue in finding a path towards being a developer.
This is why we have to put webchick in github. So we can clone her :) Having her as a role model has been huge for me and many other people I know. The more role models we have, the better off we are.
Volunteer Sprints?
I wonder if it would be helpful to have a Volunteer sprint in addition to the code sprint... where the code sprint involves making code for Drupal as a whole, Volunteer sprints could involve people working together to create or improve a website for some local worthy charity. It's a thought I had after reading your list of 'to-do's.
-john
totally
There have been some examples of volunteer opportunities - here in minneapolis we had a 24-hour web challenge, there was some sort of drupal sprint...in ireland? (hjames mentioned it to me)... all summer i've been doing a project that blends volunteering & teaching.
I think it's a really good way to learn - but as someone who has organized some student-created projects, the main issues are that if something is for a class, then students & volunteers always move on. So i think that the idea of making a whole site might not be the very best plan.
But I do really like 'volunteer work parties' - where you get something done, or add a feature, and then you are free to go. Everyone comes together, teaches, exchanges, helps out... and then you're off. You can keep helping if you like.
What these 'volunteer' efforts create is a new dependency on Drupal, and need for someone who really knows what they are doing to support the project. Volunteers & students have almost no capacity to keep volunteering for free for a very long time without it being a really really worthwhile investment.
Also, volunteer time isn't the best idea for people with families & tight budgets. I heard someone talk about this at a conference. She taught at a technical college, in the Bronx i think, a place where everyone has all kinds of backgrounds (not many of which are currently well-represented in Drupal, right?), and she was saying that stipends & grants aren't very helpful or realistic for attracting people to open source projects. Many people who have families and live in cities are way too busy & stressed out & the mere thought of giving time for free to an open source project would curdle their blood. No one had any practical ideas about how to address that... it's probably another groups.drupal.org thread (or even another groups.drupal.org group) - but here's one drupal project that seems hopeful:
I saw a Civic Actions presentation at Drupalcon San Francisco Zero divide where Civic Actions acted as 'Drupal Advisors' to youth. The youth (I think they were about 18-24 years old) learned professional web skills - such as project managing, development, themeing, design. They created web projects for members of their community. That project was partially grant funded - and partially income earned by the youth. It seems that some of these businesses, that are sort of 'social businesses' try to phase out grant support so as to become viable, sustainable businesses - they have grant funding initially, and then create a viable business.
Maybe we need groups.drupal.org/digital-divide-workgroup or something like that....
Love logic, hate sexism
Thanks so much first off to @arianek for the original article.
These ad-hoc tactics should work well in a moderated community, but at the same time I worry that in the wider parts of Drupal discourse people will keep pointing to the false logic that "Drupal is a meritocracy; hence we do not discriminate based on anything other than merit; hence there can be no sexism in Drupal; hence what are you worrying about, you old maids?" The tactics only work if everyone buys into them, and there'll always be someone - sometimes well-meaning but not understanding the wider situation - who will argue forever about whether they're even necessary. Eventually that just gets wearying.
Do we need something big to point to, like a three-point statement of what equality and meritocracy means in a living Drupal community:
That's almost a syllogism, isn't it? So it'd make it easy to remember and then use to explain to people why "sexism isn't fixed" just because we happen to declare ourselves meritocratic.
I hope that we'll see more women in technology
I hope that we'll see more women in technology. I've hired women and I've promoted women -- some of the best developers I've worked with are female.
Stop hoping with words and
Stop hoping with words and start creating that reality with your actions. I don't know if you've publicly acknowledged how people felt about your DrupalCon Copenhagen keynote.
I jokingly said I am going to do an upcoming presentation with a sack of hairy balls in one of the slides now saying, "Hey! Some of my best friends have these!"
Rapists have daughters too. It doesn't make their actions any less damaging.
What does make a difference is acknowledging gender put downs, gender based jokes and taking responsibility.
Valerie Aurora wrote a great manual - How To Encourage Women In Linux
http://tldp.org/HOWTO/Encourage-Women-Linux-HOWTO/
I know you're not comparing
I know you're not comparing Dries to a rapist in any direct sense, but that's some gender dynamite there. I'm not sure there's an equivalent term for women that's so emotionally loaded. Your point that "some of my best friends..." isn't an acceptable response is well made, but it's hard to see with that word in it.
It's up to Dries whether he chooses to say anything more about his keynote, but he has nothing to prove by his actions. Drupal's community is remarkable for the prominent involvement of women, and that's happened in some part because of Dries' actions every day. If we think he made a mistake in his keynote, let's at least acknowledge that it's a minor issue of a joke gone wrong from a man who has a long history of working with and respecting women. When Dries says some of the best programmers he's worked with are women, it's not just words.
While it is tough sometimes
While it is tough sometimes to feel important, it is important to find that self-assurance, and not depend on external people to define us.
Just because Dries is the leader of drupal, does not mean he has to organize everything.
I enjoyed having a drupal code sprint at my company, with webchick and chx attending, that was amazing.
It is up to women to learn to promote themselves, more than it is up to the leader or anybody to promote them.
You're correct, in a way.
You're correct, in a way. Women are experiencing trauma at technology events and conferences and my question is, "When will it be over?". When will we be able to attend, speak at and enjoy a conference without fear of seeing a scantily clad woman projected onto the main stage or listen to someone call into question our abilities, life choices or sheer existence in the world of technology?
I attended DrupalconSF 2010 and went to the Birds Of a Feather (BOF) for Drupal women. It was awe inspiring to be surrounded with nearly 100 women who passionately pursued Drupal as a cornerstone of their career with many indicating they were programmers. I sat there listening and feeling my heart flutter because I knew I'd made the right choice to move to San Francisco and become immersed in the tech culture (and the female tech culture).
A friend of mine had urged me to attend DrupalconCPH. I certainly would have stood up and objected if I'd heard these statements firsthand but...what would my heart of felt about the Drupal community?
Thankfully I went to that BOF and realize there are many women holding it down in Drupal and props to @webchick for being the cohesive community glue.
My point is: don't alienate anyone. If you screwed up, promptly acknowledge it. Explore your beliefs about those different than you and explore the 3 C's: Consideration, Compassion, Compliments.
And yes, I'm still thinking about doing a presentation with hairy balls!
see an earlier tweet
I feel Dries addressed his mistake a few days before your comment.
http://twitter.com/Dries/status/22192474876
certifiedtorock.com/u/36762/
Dries made some comments that
Dries made some comments that were pretty clearly sexist, and equally clearly didn't intend them to be so. In an ideal world, it shouldn't be controversial to call him on an honest mistake. We're all human, and we all need help sometimes seeing how we come across to others.
Unfortunately, a lot of people don't distinguish between "those words were sexist" and "that man hates women", and thus take a friendly reminder as if it were a moral condemnation of the whole person. Mixing these two ideas up makes every mention of sexism seem outrageously divisive.
We had a first Drupal meet-up in my town yesterday. We discussed Dries's keynote briefly and (I think) agreed that he'd misjudged his words. We didn't feel obliged to disband in shame lest we all become sexists by association. We talked a lot about Drupal, then got out a pack of Drupal cards. We cringed a little at the pictures on the back cover, then we played the game anyway because it's a great game. I'm confident the Drupal community can deal with sexism, so long as we can talk about it.
How Not To Be Insane...
The idea that being called out on a sexist comment or presentation is not the same thing as being told Thou Art a Raging Sexist - and the problem that some people have with that distinction - is similar to problems that arise when discussing racist utterances and big-R Racism. About which a fairly concise little 101 was once written (http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2005/12/02/how-not-to-be-insane-wh... [the comments thread is about as nuts as you might expect on such a heated topic]), and from which I think a few of the main points - with appropriate rewording, of course - can be drawn:
1) Breathe. Stay calm. Stay civil. Don’t burn bridges. If someone has just said “I think that sounds a bit sexist,” don’t mistake it for them saying “you’re chauvinistic sexist scum” (which is a mistake an amazing number of men make). For the first ten or twenty seconds any response you make will probably come from your defensiveness, not from your brain, so probably you shouldn’t say whatever first comes to your mind.
2) Take the criticism seriously – do not dismiss it without thinking about it. Especially if the criticism comes from a woman – women in our society tend by necessity to be more aware of sexism than most men are, and pick up on things most men overlook. (On the other hand, don’t put the women in the room in the position of being your advocate or judge.)
3) Don’t make it about you. Usually the thing to do is apologize for what you said and move on. Especially if you’re in a meeting or something, resist your desire to turn the meeting into a seminar on How Against Sexism You Are. The subject of the conversation is probably not “your many close female friends, and your sincere longstanding and deep abhorrence of sexism.”
I think Dries rules. I also think he's a normal guy, who makes normal guy mistakes and is willing to hear it when he's told "hey, that kinda sucked."
Would that some (many?) others had similar equilibrium.
I'm so lucky!!!!! I went to
I'm so lucky!!!!!
I went to the most prestigious high school on earth -- my class was more than half ladies and nobody gets into that school without an aptitude for math and critical thinking. I was surrounded by people with different colored skin including African - Americans. Intelligence in math or language by my simple observation has nothing to do with race or sex. It can't. It's not a logical conclusion under those circumstances.
Eventually for work I made it down South. Racism in the South, or at least in places I visited, is prevalent, open and ingrained in the culture. I'm so fortunate to know and have witness the truth -- that despite the slurs and hate tainted jokes I know and will always know that sex nor race defines intelligence.
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And Drupal doesn't define
And Drupal doesn't define intelligence either. My sister and I are both great at languages. She's great at foreign languages and learning new language and relating to other cultures. I can learn new programming languages and relate to new cultures that form around those languages. We're just passionate about different things, there's no positive / negative judgement either way. I wish everyone flipping out here would read your closing line and move on: "I know and will always know that sex nor race defines intelligence.".
To the rest of you on here: Please stop acting like programming in any way makes you more intelligent then non-coders (in any profession); you want to change the culture of the community towards females? Attack the elitism that all members have that dissuades non-coders in general from joining coder communities. Lack of women in the entire industry is root issue, not specialized to our framework.
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"Surrounded by people of all
"Surrounded by people of all colors, including african-americans"...When one says all colors, african-americans are included in the statement. None the less, I've learned that if we go through allowing other's words to determine our path in life it will make you better and destroy your life. We can only control our actions and I choose to remain positive and can only change someone's perception about me based on my sex/skin color one person at a time and for those who choose not to be in my world it's their lost and it has nothing to do with me. Hey let them wallow in their ignorance. Life is too short to focus on the negative and all the ugliness. Actions speak louder than words and from where I sit we have some pretty awesome "Chicks", doing some pretty awesome things in Drupal! So let's ride with that, take our toys and keep on playing! WE ROCK!
Praying to the Drupal Gods!
"When one says all colors,
"When one says all colors, african-americans are included in the statement."...
Because I'm not writing code, I don't feel obligated to write with such precision. I was drawing attention to a particular bias to make my argument. Also, trying to write with Shakespearean efficiency is like trying to be like God. Don't try you'll be struck down by lightning or bit by a shark even if you never go swimming or something of the sort.
Speaking of Shakespeare.....
You should have seen the day he stood before his band of thespians -- that is correct I did just write thespian... deal with it -- in the Globe Theater making his argument that boys dressing as girls dressing as boys is just getting to be a little too ridiculous and that they should simplify things by encouraging women to perform on stage. Of course, his argument was probably a tad bit more bawdy than Dries speech, laden with sexual innuendo and falling of his lips in iambic pentameter. When he finished his argument and the crowd below him started to recover from the shock of such a radical idea they tied him to two horses moving in opposite directions and nearly tore him from limb to limb.
[exit stage left]
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Correction
Sorry meant to say I've learned that if we go through life (I inadvertently left out "life")... and "bitter" not "better" will make you better and destroy your life... Touch screen... arghhhh!
Praying to the Drupal Gods!
Oh SNAP! @arianek, I'm glad
Oh SNAP!
@arianek, I'm glad you posted this and I agree that speaking up is better than "internalizing your disappointment" about a situation.
Some people (men and women) are simply unable to comprehend words like:
- considerate
- compassion
- empathy
I have found that these same people are experts at using behaviours which illustrate their comprehension of the words:
- blame
- criticize
- guilt inducing
- shame
- bully
- narcissist
- double standards
- borderline personality disorder
This same sort of discussion occurred in the Ruby on Rails community
http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/CouchDB_talk
There was a lot of discussion and, from what I can tell, the organizers stayed part of that talk, learned from it and adopted a new understanding of what it means to create an environment of inclusion.
Without watching the video clips, I completely understand your feelings on this.
Thank you for speaking up.
I've been blissfully unaware
I've been blissfully unaware of the going-on's and haven't watched the video, however I believe that calling somebody on a mistake, is a good thing to do.
There is a difference between what a persons' intentions are and what their actions can be misconstrued as, that they may need to become aware of.
I have no doubt that Dries is not sexist, however, he may need to be aware of how his actions can be misinterpreted as being, by the legions listening to him.
Because of the cathedral model that most people are raised with, it can be expected that many who consider themselves followers under Dries, will automatically raise arms to protect him, their leader, and automatically black-list or lambast those they perceive as harming their leader.
Whereas Drupal may still have some of the cathedral model, but is much more of a bazaar than most are used to.
Speaking out, and allowing open communication is an essential part of the bazaar model to me.
I did not mean to to disrespect anyone
Just to be 100% clear: I did not mean to disrespect anyone and I support the right of anyone to criticize sexism when they think they see it or to speak up about what standards people believe we should be held to.
At the same time, some of the Tweets and personal mails from (female) Drupalistas after my keynote were pretty rude and disrespectful on their own. A couple of these people are now teaching others about respect and standards ... not in this thread but in other conversations that I've read up on.
I hope that we learned not to attack people in the community for speaking out about what standards they believe the leaders should be held to, but at the same time, I also hope that we have learned how to work with those leaders when they do make mistakes. If we learned these two things, I think we've become an even stronger community.
At the same time, some of the
I'm sorry you received rude messages. Did you by chance see the tweets and blog posts by (mostly male) people referenced above? These sometimes hateful tweets (and a blog post or two) did more to set the atmosphere than any initial groans some women may have expressed regarding your presentation.
Coincidentally (which isn't hard in tech, since this kind of stuff tends to crop up every 2-3 months), Michelle Greer made a suggestion to Michael Arrington, who put his foot into it around the same time as DrupalCon.
A little context: What Michelle is responding to was much harsher than even the blogged diatribe posted in the Drupal world shortly after your Keynote. I don't say we have haters necessarily, but it would help if more good guys would call out the people who tell women to STFU. Many have done so here, and my gratitude to them.
Upstream in this thread, jp.stacey lists 3 points for letting a meritocracy work. Point #3 is not letting an atmosphere develop that ends up discriminating against an entire class of the community. Meritocracy only works when there's a level playing field, and if women (or any other demographic) are categorically made to feel less welcome for reasons having nothing to do with the quality of their work but merely that they're women (who may have different ideas of socially acceptable behavior), then the meritocracy loses.
I think we've done pretty well in the Drupal community in cultivating a generally supportive community (with some ugly exceptions). N00bs may get a bit bruised getting accustomed to the DIY ethic, and we may have work to do there, but that's not necessarily gender specific. Nevertheless we have very low numbers of women participating, and I hope men in the community will continue to listen when women (especially many women) say, "Hey, that's offensive!"
PINGV | Strategy • Design • Drupal
you reap what you sow
or
"whatsoever a man soweth, that he shall also reap"
Honestly, I don't want to escalate the situation here :) but only to give my opinion.
After Dries' keynote I send a tweet with a picture of some pink elefants playing around with not a clue of what they were doing. That was my way to react to this one controversial "slide".
I've been following this thread and the discussions in twitter and facebook, and so on.
For me it was the first time attending a Drupalcon. I'm member of the DUB Berlin and work with many other Drupal firms in Germany. We are 3 women from a total of 143 DUB members in Berlin. I'm organizing the Drupalcamp Berlin 2011.
There were two things that disturbed me in this case:
I hope all this issue can be finally cleared and forgotten, so that we can continue building and growing our communities and Drupal
Mar
http://www.waldbeek.com
Mar Rodriguez
rodriguez@webmagenta.de
http://www.webmagenta.de
Thank you for sharing your
Thank you for sharing your thoughts on this. I often wonder what society will be like in 200 years as we move further away from a past of disenfranchisement and disempowerment.
Apology?
Dries:
Your comments have been very thoughtful, but also very measured. You admitted that you made a mistake -- though you didn't specifically reference the mistake at hand. You have affirmed the right of community members to speak out without being attacked for being offended by something said in a public forum.
But you haven't said, as far as I know, that you're sorry, or that what you presented in Copenhagen was sexist or inappropriate. It is clear, in the context of your speech, that you were ultimately trying to encourage diversity in the community, but the way you did it was simply wrong.
I believe that to lead by example and take a step towards breaking down some of the double standards that exist for women in web development, you need to apologize more directly to the people you offended, alienated, and pissed off. That would be a concrete first step towards the fair and diverse Drupal community we all strive for.
That was meant to be a reply...
That was meant to be a reply to http://groups.drupal.org/node/89334#comment-283699
this whole thing troubles me
I feel like this is really gone out of proportion and I am going to unsubscribe to the drupalchix group.
honesty; don't take this the
honesty; don't take this the wrong way ladies and gentleman. But there are bigger fish to fry. We're all wasting time spinning sweet responses about what Dreis did or did not say. I think Dreis has learned his lesson: never attempt to make an off-color joke about anything in any context ever again or face the wrath of those that make it their life's mission to carry the torch for whatever that cause is. It was one slide lasting a few moments of an hour-ish speech.
Focusing on the little stuff is exactly what starts to kill a community. Don't define yourself by other people or things out of your control. I introduce myself to others as a drupal programmer, not a male.
As for statements earlier, I'd like to see the hairy ball sack slide posted in the middle of a drupal presentation and see how that stacks up to a butt and legs in a ball-pit ;)
Pay knowledge forward
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http://drupal.psu.edu/
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There is no such thing as a
There is no such thing as a waste of time. What's important to you to consider and discuss may not be what's important to others, and vice versa. If you consider a topic a waste of time, then just don't enter into it. Reserve your wit and wisdom for what's important to you.
To trivialize another's concern - especially when that concern is relevant to a historically charged and critical topic in social organization, and especially when that concern directly relates to someone's experiences - is churlish and self-serving.
One of the points of the discussion is that "male" is the default. If you introduce yourself as any kind of programmer, it's an assumption... and that assumption is a kind of hurdle for anyone who doesn't automatically qualify.
Finally: Dries actually did learn a more important, more subtle lesson than you, or than you want to project onto him. Turn off the snark for a moment, actually read his own words, and maybe you'll pick up on it.
Edit: Prefacing an antagonistic and dismissive statement with "don't take this the wrong way" does not soften the statement, and in fact marks it as disingenuous, rather in the manner of following up an insult with "can't you take a joke?"
Focusing on the little stuff
Focusing on the little stuff is exactly what starts to kill a community.
I think that's exactly the wrong way round. Dealing with the little stuff before it gets bigger is precisely what protects a community from splitting. Little stuff that goes on and on, always affecting the same people, eventually tells those people that they're not welcome and prompts them to go and form their own community. Obviously we're nowhere near anything like that with the Drupal community, but it's always better to deal with small wounds early than leave them to fester.
When I first started
When I first started following this issue (including a read-through of the thread on the gender selection field), I immediately thought of a link that had been passed around on another forum I frequent. At that time, it was in response to discriminatory comments, but it's actually about privilege in general.
It's a bit long, but it's REALLY insightful. Great, great GREAT article -- Highly recommended, and feel free to pass it around :)
On the difference between Good Dogs and Dogs That Need a Newspaper Smack.
What a great analogy, thanks
What a great analogy, thanks for posting that link!
Behind the Words
I understand that this type of mess happens due to communication mistakes, but listeners should also take into account who is the person behind the words. Dries has shown us clearly who he is with all of his hard work and dedication to this project, thus a bad joke will not change my mind about him.
Of course anyone has the right to attack others just because of a mistake, but that is the wrong way to solve things. Also keep in mind that we are in a multi-cultural context, so I think that "tolerance" is the key word missing in this thread. IMHO if you have any issues with Dries or with anyone in particular, why not contact him/her directly? People are talking about Dries here but not talking TO Dries. Is that the way that you handle things when you have issues with your friends or family?
The Drupal Community is like a big family, we succeed together or we fail together. In this thread is our family doing any good? Answer yourself.
--
¡ Soy un drupalero latino !
Dear friend, I pray that you may enjoy good health and that all may go well with you, even as your soul is getting along well (3 John 1:2)
Criticism of a person's words
Criticism of a person's words and actions should never be construed as an attack on that person. Saying "you're a bigot" is not a discussion, or at all helpful. Nobody is calling Dries a bigot, however. A great many people felt that Dries' joke was sexist, but does that mean that he himself is a sexist? Of course not--regardless of his contributions to the community. Dries' personal views are separate from that, though I should think most people would agree that the context in which he made the joke would certainly indicate how he feels about women in tech.
That said, it doesn't matter whether someone is visible, famous, or not. Nobody's words or actions should be considered to be beyond criticism. In fact, a public discussion of a public figure's public statements IS necessary for the reason you outline above: by citing Dries' contributions as important to your understanding of his character, you're conflating contribution to the community with tolerance of diversity of that community.
What about the Drupal newbie who lacks that knowledge of Dries--who hears that and thinks, "oh great, do I really want to get involved with these people?"
What about the Drupal community member for whom such a joke merely reinforces his perceptions of how women can best contribute to Drupal? After all, if Dries said THAT, blonde jokes can't be so bad, can they?
Neither of those scenarios do the community any good at all.
I wanted to post a quick note
I wanted to post a quick note to offer my agreement with those who called out this slide/comment in the presentation. I think the follow up discussion has been beneficial, especially pointing out that this is not about "being offended" but more about ensuring our community has unambiguously welcoming and non-threatening communication, and also that calling out the issue is not saying anything about Dries as a person, just pointing out some things that could have been communicated in a better way.
My suggestions to those who feel that this kind of feedback or having the sexism conversation at all is "damaging to the community" should ask themselves the question "damaging to who" - from the perspective of a person in the majority this type of conversation can at first sight appear to be divisive and uncomfortable, however from the minority point of view this is all about inclusiveness, and (while there may be some discomfort) the end result is intended to be greater openness, diversity and unity - not less.
I also wanted to point out "Taking The First Step: Suggestions To People Called Out For Abusive Behavior" (available at http://fruitiondesign.com/dealwithit/02wispy.php among many other places). I should point out that this is targeted at much much more abusive behaviour than Dries presentation (such as rape), so some suggestions are put very strongly. However I think it does a great job of explaining effective listening, and the appropriate ways to respond (and not respond) when called out.