Posted by ebrittwebb on March 5, 2008 at 4:15pm
Glad to see the shift in group focus from DrupalEd distribution to Drupal in Education (including DrupalEd Distro). I think this will help strengthen dialogue among those of us in the education field.
Should/can we also change the group URL? Or does that create linking problems?
Comments
I would have to agree. Now
I would have to agree. Now I'm glad that my "Educational Institutions" group got rejected. This makes more sense, and even goes more in line with what the group focuses on.
Andrew (amariotti)
Andrew (amariotti)
Changing the url would break A LOT of links
Changing the url would break A LOT of links -- I changed the name, and the description, to bring them more inline with what we were talking about yesterday at the BoF --
Any suggestions about new language for the group description?
Cheers,
Bill
FunnyMonkey
Tools for Teachers
FunnyMonkey
Reference Link?
Is there any way we could register another group and then lock this group and put a sticky to it? or have both links goto the same place? Guess it doesn't really matter as long as the title makes sense but I can see how it could be confusing to people.
Ex Uno Plures
http://elmsln.org/
http://btopro.com/
http://drupal.psu.edu/
Good point about changing groups
Bryan has a good point about changing groups. I could see how the DrupalEd Distro might become useful again in the future, so rather than re-purposing it to Drupal for Education, I'm now changing my story to suggest we consider creating a Drupal for Education group (e.g., groups.drupal.org/education) and focus general education discussions there.
Sorry for flip-flopping, Bill. Hope this suggestion makes sense.
Erik Britt-Webb
drupal@ebrittwebb.com
I would have to agree. Bill
I would have to agree. Bill could probably get authorization to do something like that from the Groups moderators. Like I said, I tried to get the Educational Institutions group going but it got shut down because of this group. My initial ideas were completely different then this group, but with an education group may go in line with it. The DrupalED distro group should be focused on the Distribution of DrupalEd and only that. Probably open for debate though. Bill, what do you think?
Andrew (amariotti)
Andrew (amariotti)
Unnecessarily complex, and potentially confusing
If you look at the conversations in this group, the bulk of them are education related, and not drupaled related. At this point, I don't see a need for two groups, and there is significant value in centralizing the conversations.
Given that the group name and the group description both reflect a larger focus, I don't see the need for additional shifts; changing the url/freezing this group would break a lot of links, and also force the 300+ users of this group to join another group --
DrupalEd has an issue queue -- support requests should go there. Given that DrupalEd users are a subset of people using Drupal in educational contexts, it doesn't make sense to balkanize the conversation or duplicate functionality.
I added a group-specific keyword for the Group, which will allow us to use keywords to organize posts within the group --
FunnyMonkey
Tools for Teachers
FunnyMonkey
I agree with you that
I agree with you that freezing this group wouldn't make much sense. The less work that is needed, the better.
Since the name of the Group in "My Groups" has changed it's only the URL that is different. My only suggestion would be to look into seeing if the URL could be changed to either "http://g.d.o/education" or "http://g.d.o/drupalineducation" to make things less confusing. When I was searching for a group about education in Drupal sites on g.d.o this was the only thing I found. It's become a central place for education related discussions and, as Bill said, not so much around DrupalEd. By looking into changing the URL it would eliminate the confusion and the content would stay the same (obviously).
Thoughts? What it comes down to is whether or not the g.d.o maintainers would be able to do something like that or not. Since it's such a big group you'd like that it would be doable to make things simple for the 300+ members.
Andrew (amariotti)
Andrew (amariotti)
Fair enough
Fair enough. Let's stick with this group.
Erik Britt-Webb
drupal@ebrittwebb.com
Any room for absolute newbies?
I am very confused about where to start. Seems I got lost in a maze of forum searches as I was trying to compare possible LMS solutions and having some vague idea about what would be needed to develop an online college web site.
Call me simple. Call me stupid. This is all new to me and I'm all self-taught, but hoping one day to become a webmaster. I created a number of sites in Dreamweaver, struggled with css when the web advanced and then started trying to learn php as my needs shifted from design to development. Then I got involved with a small college with a small budget and no knowledge of the web, connected to my church. They may lack resources but they have faith and a big vision. I got elected as the man to help reach the world through the web (mostly pro bono).
So we're not going to hire developers. It will be me. But I want to do things the right way the first time - hence endless searches on LMS - and my ultimate arrival here. Seems like the right group. Please redirect me otherwise.
Maybe there are more appropriate groups for newbies like me? So far I've downloaded joomla and drupal and poked around on their fourms as I played with the download and some features. And I've read about blackboard, not used it. And in fact, I've never been a teacher, though I do feel called to try it. For now, I'd like to figure out how much the LMS I'm looking for will cost and how long it will take to get everything started. So would I be able to give a short list of my needs and get a little guidance here?
MY WISH LIST
1. A single log in per student, so if there is moodle/drupal combo or joomla/blackboard extension they don't need a new user name and password.
2. An inexpensive solution, especially for the first two years. (Is DrupalEd free? Seems Joomla LMS runs about $1000 after plug ins.)
3. Student record keeping: everything from grades, GPAs, disciplinary issues, to financials and program, and keeps track of courses currently in progress. All classes and membership are suspendable/restorable by administrators. Individual classes/courses suspendable/restorable by teacher/moderator.
4. Powerpoint, Live Chat with Video/Audio, Video/Audio Archives, easy course development
Podcasts.
5. Flexible design. I want more than a logo up top. I want something like what I have already at http://www.jamescarvin.com/stmichaelnew. I DON'T want it to look like a canned drupal/joomla site. I DO want it to have flexible css/php controls.
6. Multiple user/permissions - forums accessible only to registered students, with alumni view options.
7. eCommerce options: Application process requires fee, approval, transcript submission, identification upload option
8. Teacher/Admin Controlled environment. I DON'T want student comments getting other students lost in thread drifts. I DON'T want it to become or look like a blog.
9. Email. I DON'T want students to miss important communications so either I need good control through a PM system, or by creating student email. But I DON'T want to have to spend time setting up any email accounts. It needs to be automated.
10. Calendars. Each course needs one. Each student needs one that can integrate their course caldendars all into one, which also integrates with a mandatory meetings/events/deadlines calendar. Includes drop/add and refund deadlines.
11. Flexible Timers: After paying for a course, students have an admin variable amount of time to start it and/or complete it. Some courses have scheduled events and mandatory attendance.
12. System of make ups/disciplinary tracking ties into this.
13. Collaborative Work: Many teachers uploading their course work make light work. Courses need to be approved and can be edited by our administrators.
14. Scholarships, assistantships, grants, loans, financial tracking are available as administrative overrides to financial tracking.
Now if someone's developed this already and all I have to do is turn the switch on …
James Carvin
Thank you for your help!
James Carvin
Thank you for your help!
wow... where to start on
wow... where to start on this one...
That's a heck of a feature set to be requesting from a free system :). I'll see what I can do in answering some of your questions / giving you some help w/ that.... First off, there isn't anything out of the box in drupal that you can turn on to get the feature set you've requested. Lots of those features exist but since this is an open/free project, people typically develop things in as generic a fashion as possible. There are single signon mechanisms and I think there might have been a moodle integration one for access (not positive on that).
1. You would probably need a single sign on mechanism to make things as seamless as possible.
2. Drupal is free whether it's the Ed install or anything else. If you find it on this site or Drupal.org it'll be free for you to try out
3,4. No simple way of doing this
5. It's not that hard to make a theme for drupal (even for newbees). If you can handle CSS and html you could probably step out to Drupal themes w/o much of an issue
6. Built in, it'll require some customization and an attack plan for integrating it correctly but it's do-able
7. There are eCommercce tools out there, just search for them
8,9,10. Possible, just based on your implementation of different modules.
11. I don't know of a solution to this but it sounds like something that would be out there. It could also be a module involving user access and cron if you wrote a small one (tho this isnt a newbee task)
12. Not sure what you want here...
13. Definitely possible if configured correctly; you probably want to use Organic Groups with some of this stuff (and related OG modules)
14. Probably could do this with CCK and some Views but nothing out of the box
My recommendation? This is an overall game plan but I don't think you want all of this in 1 system. I'd start off trying to redo you're site in drupal and add in the ecommerce stuff. Then try to add in some additional content types with CCK and ways for students / staff to view materials with Views and see where things lead from there.
Hope this helps, I know it's not very positive outside of being a "free" solution other then you're time / effort in becoming a drupal ninja :)
Ex Uno Plures
http://elmsln.org/
http://btopro.com/
http://drupal.psu.edu/
push button tongue in cheek
Thanks btopro!
Well, I didn't exactly expect to get it all in one package. Just had to get some feedback from those with experience since I'm still on week one of my search and mainly trying to figure out if I should recommend paying for joomla LMS, at this point, or concentrate on drupal instead. This is tremendously helpful. It seems the extensions at joomla are a little better advanced, but for an LMS, I've got to pay.
As to free, I suppose if there are any features not yet in existence, I could figure out how to help contribute to module development once I get a handle on it - if I want it that badly. And that would turn me into a web master, for sure. Baby steps …
If you have a few more minutes, I would appreciate some clarification.
You said …
There are single sign on mechanisms and I think there might have been a moodle integration one for access (not positive on that).
1. You would probably need a single sign on mechanism to make things as seamless as possible.
Question: Does that mean that in drupalEd that a person has to sign up with a new username/password for each course they take?
I said:
3. Student record keeping: everything from grades, GPAs, disciplinary issues, to financials and program, and keeps track of courses currently in progress. All classes and membership are suspendable/restorable by administrators. Individual classes/courses suspendable/restorable by teacher/moderator.
You said …
3,4. No simple way of doing this
Question: What is the complex way? Should I be thinking of another type of student management/record keeping program? Do you know of any? If I can automate things online and it can be secure, I'm almost always for it. On the issue of security, I noticed that the Dept. of Defense is in charge of SCORM. Can I assume that drupalED is SCORM compliant hence relatively cheat-proof?
I said:
4. Powerpoint, Live Chat with Video/Audio, Video/Audio Archives, easy course development
Podcasts.
You said …
3,4. No simple way of doing this
Question: Would I not be able to add a podcasting module to drupalEd? I've subscribed to the drupal Video Group. One thing I like is Google Video embedding. Could there be a module for adding the Google embedding code to teacher posts?
You said …
7. There are eCommercce tools out there, just search for them
Question: Do you mean by "tools" drupal modules?
I said:
11. Flexible Timers: After paying for a course, students have an admin variable amount of time to start it and/or complete it. Some courses have scheduled events and mandatory attendance.
You said...
11. I don't know of a solution to this but it sounds like something that would be out there. It could also be a module involving user access and cron if you wrote a small one (tho this isnt a newbee task)
Comment: If determination helps, then I might get through to ninja on that.
I said:
12. System of make ups/disciplinary tracking ties into this.
You said...
12. Not sure what you want here...
Comment: I had in mind that if a student missed a mandatory scheduled event, of if they scored below par on an exam, or if they got into trouble for name calling or flaming in a course forum or chat that caused them to be suspended based on preprogrammed perameters, (such as "x tardies + y absences = failed grade, or lowered grade (disciplinary variable), that they would be able to have z make up criteria as a remedy (such as extra classes, or bonus tests taken, or essay submitted). The variables and criteria would be entered by the teacher who designed the course and approved by admin.
James Carvin
Hey, you've been super helpful. Just what I needed. Thank you for the quick reply!
James Carvin
Thank you for your help!
Huge project
I'll echo what others have said - what you want is quite possible, but far from easy to implement. I'll try to address some of your followup questions.
First of all, you refer to "buying" Joomla. I'm a little confused at that, since Joomla is another open source CMS that is free to download just like Drupal. Somewhat different features, etc., but it's really very very similar to Drupal (please, no platform war arguments!). Many of us here happen to think Drupal is the best tool for the job, but you're going to encounter exactly the same challenges to building what you want regardless which underlying systems you choose - Drupal, Joomla, Plone, PHPNuke, Mambo, SilverStripe, ... the list of open source CMSs is very long.
No. One account will work for all content within your Drupal site. You will probably want to go with some sort of external single sign-on like LDAP or OpenID, though, because you're likely to need to be integrating other non-Drupal tools like Moodle into the architecture and will need some way to keep accounts in sync.
In a word, yes. You could roll your own and build something in Drupal, but you're probably better off looking at tying into an existing student management system. That project alone could eat your life. :-)
As far as I know SCORM has nothing to do with security. Don't let the DoD connections fool you, SCORM is a format for educational content import/export. I'm afraid "cheat-proof" belongs in the same category as "perpetual motion machine" - there are plenty of ways to keep the honest ones honest, but there's not much you can do to prevent the determined ones from cheating.
Sure, just install whatever Drupal modules you want that give you the functionality you're looking for. DrupalEd is a custom install of Drupal with all the modules, menus, etc. pre-configured. It's still just Drupal under the hood, so you can install any Drupal module that strikes your fancy - including the video or podcasting modules. I think the audio module is already installed with DrupalEd, so you might not even need to do anything to get basic podcasting functionality going.
Yes ... or you could plug in an external eCommerce app.
Whew .. you don't want much, do you? ;-) All theoretically possible, but far from trivial to build.
Drupal is very flexible, but it's generic. Very generic. It does an amazing amount of stuff right out of the box, but to do what you're talking about will take some pretty significant customization. With the right modules (some of which you'll probably need to write or have written) you can do just about everything you talk about, but it will be a time-consuming and lengthy undertaking. Then again, for the level of functionality you're looking for that will be true for any CMS or LMS. What you're looking for is going to be time-consuming or expensive (or more likely, both).
I suspect your best bet (both cost and effort-wise) is to tie a Drupal site in with a Moodle site and some sort of student management system (I'm no expert on those, so I won't try to suggest one) and hook them all up with some sort of centralized authentication like OpenID or LDAP. Take advantage of each component system's differing strengths rather than trying to build one monolithic mega-system that does everything but brew the coffee in the teachers' lounge.
-Greg
Allow me to second that . .
Allow me to second that . . . WOW that's a pretty big, specific list . . . It looks a lot like walking into a Home Depot and asking if there's a complete garage/workshop package you can get, rather than having to pick out and purchase each tool and appliance piece by piece. ;)
I'd echo the idea that you're going to want to try to tackle pieces of this -- there isn't a free turnkey package like the one you've described, and any paid service that provided something so comprehensive would be pretty expensive, I'm guessing. You can build most of what you're looking for in Drupal, with Moodle picking up some of the other slack. But it's going to take time to experiment and configure your system, and given the private and highly sensitive nature of a lot of the data you're going to be handling, you're going to want to be very careful as you go forward. The Drupal community does a great job keeping up with security problems as their discovered, but that means at the very least you're going to have to keep an eye out for notices of security upgrades, etc.
You CAN do everything you're talking about doing, but it's going to be work, and it's going to take time. You don't need to be a ninja coder to do most of what you want to do. There's a lot of help available in the community, too -- between the IRC channels and specific support trackers for different modules, forums, etc. The handbook gets better every day and the API reference is very handy if you get into some code stuff.
-j
edit: d'oh! This should have been a reply to btopro's reply to Jamescarvin!