Because of Drupal's special nature, there are alot of us hybrids in the community: designers with an interest in developing and developers with an interest in designing. I would like to create a place/discussions that dealt with this crossover.
I am speaking from the design pov because, well, i am a designer first and coder/developer second (read: way second). Also, I think that we can close the gap by developing several simple things:
- a section where Drupal concepts are explained in a designers vocab
- discussions that deal with/ are tagged with information about how to leverage the amazing "theme_" functions
- tutorials that discuss how to extract object information and apply it to modules/ hacks. This would include ALOT of PHP insights that developers take for granted
- I want to write a list that designers could offer developers, but I don't know what you need (tell me)
Alot of the cool things that we can accomplish with Drupal are left untouched because there is little translation between the to worlds. In my design classes, i communicate OOP concepts in a way that artist can understand them (also, if you want to know how to draw (think pen and paper) i use OOP concepts to communicate that too....) so, it is less about the information and more about how that information is distributed....
if this happens, i think that the gap would grow smaller :)
I am very passionate about Drupal and would love to manage interactions of this sort... here or in any group... an ambassador of design, if you will.
let me know what cha think
Comments
Definitely Interested
I would very much like to see a group/site/resource that is focused in this direction. I can't add much to the discussion at this point because I'm expecting a baby in the next week or so, but this is something that I would love to contribute to developing. I am currently helping to plan an online course (I will eventually teach) for my local community college that focuses on theming CMSs, and as theming Drupal will be included I have a vested interest in good, designer-oriented resources.
learn one, teach one, do one
first of all, good luck with
first of all, good luck with the delivery :)
second, any help would be appreciated...
third, i am also planning a course for my college...
so we have A TON to talk about !
Thank you and I look forward
Thank you and I look forward to talking to you about your course plans... How cool!
learn one, teach one, do one
I think this is a great
I think this is a great idea. I am myself more of a developer than a designer, but I would like to pick up some design tips and would be happy to lend some development knowledge to a project like this.
Brian Vuyk
Web Design and Development
Hamilton, ON
http://www.brianvuyk.com | brian@brianvuyk.com
(613)216-5161
Brian Vuyk
Senior Developer, PINGV Creative
bv@pingv.com | (315) 849-9733 | Skype: brianvuyk
when i started to get into
when i started to get into OOP (about three years ago), it transformed the way that I made Art. I find myself creating Art according to OOP best practices... and there is much in common in terms of creative art making and creative programming.
In my mind, there are the nuts and bolts: how we get this done and working... and then there are the umbrella way of looking at a structure or strategy.
one of the reasons to develop this group is to provide a framework of communication and an understanding.
in Drupaland, the priority will always be for the developer. it needs to be. the developer has a really, really tough job: not only does he (i would like to say she here too) need to understand the system as a whole, make sure the functionality is intact and develop within a specified structure.... but/and the use-ability of functionality must be considered so all that hard work will be exploited for the means that it was created.
why this long reply? because of this:"but I would like to pick up some design tips and ..."
that is the key. designers must communicate, in a practical form, how they will deploy developer solutions. then the dev can bend and form the solution
i had a VP of Creative IT tell me all the time: everything is just a timing issue: the time it takes the engineer to solve the problem.
cheers
I'm very curious on how you
I'm very curious on how you connect the two.. OOP & Art. Sign me up!
I was never formally train in design or programming and I see the two as distinct and separated. Anything to connect the two would be interesting. Initially, the programming served my designs but now I'm having second thoughts. My designs have been lacking lately since I got sucked into programming. heh.
Perhaps an organic group of the same site?
Do you think it might be better to have this be a sector of the main drupaldojo site rather than its own site? That way we would be able to interact with some of the high level programmers in the same discussion rather than separating them into their own site. For instance this could be the designdojo organic group on drupaldojo.com and another group could be the hardcore-php-dojo group or whatever. I like the idea of having a core group of designers learning theme overrides etc... but often it takes a programmer to come up with new hacks that designers make use of.
Web design, Drupal theming, and logo design:
http://www.translationdesigns.com
Drupal theming, Module development and logo design:
http://www.PixelClever.com
Yeah, a dev4des organic group... great suggestion
when i read this, you vocalized something that i was thinking between now and my first post: there really are tiers of interest.
for example, i am enamored with computer languages... some people like the romantic, i love the machine. so, my interest in understanding how these complex systems work is how I can tap into them and build functionality (really sexy functionality, mind you) into / out of them.
then there are designers who just want a cliff notes version of how the system works... so if they have to, say, add windshield wiper fluid, they don't pour the stuff where the oil should go (not good)
then there are the hard-core designers who LE&S design ... they just want to know the minimal.
i will be in the group of designers learning theme overrides (well, i override themes all the time, already) and i want to know how to add functionality with / by creating modules (overriding again). to this point, i would like to facilitate the trickle-down consciousness above to my fellow designers... so they can climb up the ladder if they want to, and then, eventually throw it away.
what are the next steps? how do we get going?
thanks
Yes!
That is a great idea! I see this developing naturally out of the existing dojo and I would love to see this a part of drupaldojo.com. I mean, there has already been some amazing contributions to this topic by dojo members, Joon's Drupal 6 Theming documentation being an excellent example, and I really see something like this being a continuation of dojo work, not a split from it.
What's valuable is the idea that the focus would be on resources targeted toward a non-dev audience and that this audience could be an extant resource for developers.
learn one, teach one, do one
Definitely a great idea :)
I surely would like this happening - I am not the best theemer out there, and not much of a coder, but I look foward to contributing what I can.
Let's do it! :D
buddy system?
I'd like to propose a buddy system where a newbie designer can be paired up with one of us to help them get past the steep learning curve.
Here's how it would work:
* we set up a forum like a ride board at the upcoming site http://www.designfordrupal.org (D4D)
* the newbie designer or themer posts a short bio of their background, their geographic area, and the tpe of work they're interested in
* one of us more seasoned pros then responds with a post to help mentor them, getting them through the first site and first installation
I think it would help get less technical talent past that initial hump, and it would be a great recruiting tool, too for local groups or the community.
We've used the forum module in the past for this purpose but (sadly) had to go into the module itself to change the text in the interface. Can anyone suggest a better approach? If anyone wants to volunteer to set it up, please contact me at claudio [at] studiomodule.com, and I'll be happy to grant you temporary admin access.
There's more information in the Design Outreach group. You folks are tackling one of the key tasks of the D4D site, and we'd love your help.
@modulist
thanks for the email :) yes,
thanks for the email :)
yes, it was great to meet you too at DrupalCon and, yes, i would love to be involved in the (designfordrupal.org) community. I just created an account there.
the post here on drupal-dojo is a bridge to developers for their help for us designers... my thoughts are: lets meet on their turf and then take all the insight and knowledge and put it into terms on d4d.org.
the buddy system above is a KILLER idea! that is truly great. Also, i would love to run a "Jumpoff for Designers" session as well as a BOF for newbie designers at future Drupalcons: a kind of "heads up" if you will.
I also just subscribed to the Design Outreach group. Come to think of it, we should clarify the roles of these intra dependent groups. For example:
Design For Drupal: a showcase site to present what designers do with Drupal and hardcore information about how to get the job (read:theme) done
Design Outreach: an invitation to the Drupal community for newbie Drupal designers and a place where experience designers can extend a hand
dev4des: a bridge to developers to designers... where we exchange valuable insights to assist both groups in becoming more aware of the needs of the others. also, information here could be linked / reiterated on the former groups above
these are stabs at understanding how these groups work and fit together... please clarify them further.
looking forward to stalking online and seeing you in the future,
best regards
drop and the dojo?
Please take a look at Drop (drop.cwgordon.com) and the Drupal Dojo (drupaldojo.com) before starting yet another mentoring project. The Dojo is good for introductions (beginner or advanced) to specific areas of Drupal (screencasts, live lessons etc.). Drop is great for finite tasks and mentoring. Integrating designers with those two (which already have plenty on code, docs, user interface etc.) is likely to be more sustainable long term.
Love It!
I love the buddy system idea behind designfordrupal.org, but also agree we should take a look at Drop (drop.cwgordon.com) and the Drupal Dojo (drupaldojo.com) first, before committing to another web site. Especially DROP may suit the need.
Erik Britt-Webb
drupal@ebrittwebb.com
Whoa!
Ok, it is funny, because at the BOF at DrupalconBoston, I was saying that I am a person who does something first and then asks for forgiveness... rather than as for permission. The good thing about that approach is, well, we get faster results :)
The "drop" ....." which stands for Drupal Really Open Participation, is a project designed for organizing short-term tasks for members of the community who are still getting familiar with the system. There are also a few harder tasks available for more seasoned developers looking for something to do when they're bored."
This is set up like a mentoring project... and i think that this is a great system already in place.
I am pretty much in awe about how the robust the Drupal community is.
Like most developers would agree, it is better to improve on an existing platform than create something from scratch. I think that it would be wise to follow suit.
If my designer friends can contribute anything, it might be more about a new theme for an exisiting site and/or help with information design.
Creating an account on the Drop
Drop tasks for "create a new
Drop tasks for "create a new contributed theme for x kind of site" "upgrade this theme to Drupal 6" (with blessings from the maintainer) "convert this GPL theme to Drupal" etc. would be very welcome I expect.
on it
on it
Happy hackers
I like this idea a lot. I can't speak for every designer out there, but I'm of the "happy hacker" kind: I'm by no means a developer but I understand php code when I read it. Give me sample code and I can probably hack it to my needs without too much difficulties. But I couldn't write it from scratch as I don't know Drupal's inners well enough, and can't remember the function names and arguments as I don't use them that often.
I think lots of "designer hybrids" can go a long way with just theme overrides, template files and a few lines of PHP to tests various variables. I guess the biggest barriers are to understand the logic under the hood and how to get and make good use of variables and data. It's not that hard on a standard Drupal install, but add CCK + Views and it's another story.
A kind of cheatsheet for themers would probably help our visual brains too ;) It's the kind of information developers know by heart but can easily be overlooked by themers.
I remember there was a Drupal cheatsheet once (I believe it was for 4.7) but it was aimed at developers.
(oh I just searched and found this fairly recent topic about cheatsheets : http://drupal.org/node/201004 )
(update 2: found this themer's cheatsheet : http://www.minezone.org/blog/2007/12/18/drupal-theme-developers-cheat-sh... )
i agree
I think one of the things that we need to clarify is an understanding of how Drupal works and then how to access it. Alot of discussion in this group will be things that basic developers know: How to interact with a MySQL db, how to read and write PHP, how to extract a value in an Object nested in an Array... and then use it !
we can hack out way around (i do it all the time ), but we really need to play by the rules so that (1) we have street cred and (2) our additions do not make our sites insecure or unstable.
great to have you on board.
deve4des group submitted
I have created a group and am awaiting approval. once that happens, i think that we should move our discussions there and continue building the bridge
approved.
Good initiative!
sorry guys, but we have too
sorry guys, but we have too many overlapping groups. use theme development or http://groups.drupal.org/designers-and-information-architects
ok, should we then just use
ok, should we then just use the tag "dev4des" and keep it within an already existing group? I know how frustrating it is when there are too many places to find the information you are looking for.
Does that sound like a more appropriate solution?
thanks
my apologies
Yes, it's better to start this within an existing group. Designers and Info architects and/or Theme development are both fine (you can publish the same post to more than one group). You'll be adressing a big part of the intended audience right from the start that way! Use a tag if you like.
Very non-drupal standard site that seems applicable..
Alright, while a bit self-congratulatory, today we launched Georgia Tech Research Institute. Like many complete overhauls, there are a few things hard-coded in for temporary use until we can get the backlog of archival data ported (10 years), but we had something good to show and wanted it out there.
So what I'm curious in is, considering the number of threads regarding needing to learn how to Theme, how to modify Zen, migrate from D5->D6 etc, and the dreaded "How do I code for that design?" and "OMG you expect my design to fit in those boxes??" questions, I'm thinking of documenting the site as a showcase.
And if there's interest, I'll make sure to talk about how we went from pure photoshop concepts and site designs to coding, fixes, hacks etc and all the back and forth involved.
Let me know.
**Michael (a currently very-tired man in Atlanta)
Atlanta, GA USA
Drupal training for hire, or open-source?
I think that there's lots to be learned from successful non profits. We've been working with a few of global charities that have been incredibly successful at pushing recruitment to the local level.
The root of their success has some from creating kits for their local chapters to organize events, fund raising, etc. -- within fairly tight guidelines. If you've been to a local production of the Vagina Monologues at a women's college, you'll know what I mean.
If Drupal dojo or your group could publish a core curriculum for teaching Drupal to new developers and creatives, then there's no limit to the new talent that Drupal could attract. It could make the initial time investment and learning curve far less daunting.
However, I can completely understand wanting to keep some training for hire, in order to keep training up to a high standard. Right now, there are precious few folks (read: Lullabots) who offer training, and it's clear that curriculum development gets squeezed into the moments they can steal away from paying gigs.
What I envision are a few course outlines that someone at a local chapter could use as a foundation for a half-day training workshop, such as these:
By pushing curricula to local chapters, you can set a much better baseline for the quality of Drupal training.
-modulist
P.S. you can have an organic group for training on http://designfordrupal.org whenever you want it.
@modulist