I know that I will most likely be wrong about this, but with the advancement of CCK, Views, OG and Panels, is the forum module really necessary anymore? My idea being is that with all these "practically core" modules, isn't it feasible to create a forum with just these modules?
I can create a content type called "forum post" manually, set the taxonomy for the forums (granted containers would be an issue) and use views to custom tailor the data shown to the users. I can already create 8/10th's of the forum functionality with just that scenario. Unless I am missing something.
Wouldn't it make sense to take the functionality that is needed to create forums and spread it out so that it can be used across multiple content types instead of saying that only forum.module can use X module and so forth.
Also in regards to Forum ACL mechanisms like Forum Access, wouldn't it be more flexible to "open" it to other content types so that users could be selected to moderate a specific taxonomy term, instead of limiting it to only forums.
The only issue that I can think of at the moment (I am not a drupal developer) is the theming aspect of making drupal forums look like vB or phpBB (flat forum or adv forum). But instead of creating a forum-only glue module, maybe a more generic and flexible module can be created that can be used across any content type.
The greatest aspect I see in drupal is that I can use a group of modules to customize one content type and then latter do it in a completely different way with another content type. "Locking" modules to forum.module seems kinda anti-Drupal (in the sense that it is not flexible and open).
It just seems to me that if most of the functionality can be created with major, well supported modules and the functionality that can't be done can be moved to a more relevant core module (i.e containers concept moved to taxonomy.module), create a basic smaller module to handle the functionality that cannot be created or see if can be added to CCK/Views/Panels/etc...
Comments
This is pretty much the
This is pretty much the approach that I will probably be taking when I move UIEForum over to use nodes in the near future.
There's absolutely no possibility of me using the core forum module - it just isn't cut out for my idea of what a forum is or should be. CCK, Views and a better Taxonomy access control system will be required to make sure that everything behaves in the manner that users of the more popular BB systems out there expect.
Interesting that you've brought up my exact thoughts though :)
The core forum module
The core forum module is quite clever, I think, in how it reuses existing modules for forum nodes, forum comments and taxonomy categories. While I find myself leaning in the direction of your argument, how would you recreate sticky posts? How would you lock posts? How would you create a forum listing that looks like like the one that drupal.org has?
It's important to have something that at least has parity with the core forum module before abandoning it. It's probably possible by combining CCK, Views Fusion, Flag (formerly Views Bookmark), Flat Forum, etc. but it sure is a lot of work. Personally, I'm interested in the progress around Advanced Forum.
yes and no
forum.module doesn't do much more than use taxonomy a bit and provide some 'views' (which currently aren't supported by Views 1, but could be if someone wrote it) - it's never really done much more than that either. What's changed is views, cck etc. coming along. A couple of things you mentioned are already in Drupal 6 though - you can use any node type in a forum (polls etc.), and you can use advanced forum to theme them out of the box too iirc.
For me, the real issues are with comment.module - splitting and merging of threads, lack of real permalinks, hardcoded threading (even in 'flat' mode). For that reason, Michele and myself are considering moving advanced forum to use all nodes - not comments as nodes, just all forum discussions using nodes. I've also been wondering whether we should consider moving to the menu system rather than taxonomy for forums and containers - similar to how the book module currently operates. All this is quite far away though, and for me the main thing will be moving as much as possible from advanced forum into core during D7 as makes sense.
The real issue here is that core modules can't rely on views/cck/panels etc.- so all the modules in core which actually do something, especially anything to do with nodes, start to look very out of date.
The forum module "was"
To christefano
The forum module "was" clever in the 4.x branch of drupal and was quite useful then. There was no easy way to create a forum without the forum module. But times change and it seems like all the other modules have become more open and flexible and sort of left the forum module to its own demise. I also think the same about the event module being replaced with Date/Calendar, but thats a similar but different issue.
To the best of my knowledge, which I could be wrong, but isn't there a way to "sticky" posts without forum.module. If not it could be a patch for the core node module perhaps.
You can already lock posts since forum uses comments for replies, just click edit and move to the comment settings and select "read". Instant locking.
Views could handle the forum listings up to the actual thread. Just set up the filters/args/etc... to show your manually created forum node, and set up a table for the view. Add node title, created date, comment count or new comments and node author for the forum thread starter.
Like I said in main post, There are a couple of things that forum module does to help with creating a forum (setting up containers).
My main point is that drupal prides itself on not creating duplicate modules, and I see forum.module duplicating a lot of functionality that has been superseded by the developers of CCK and Views.
Also since most sites run drupal with CCK and Views, lets leverage the power of those modules.
To Catch:
I understand your argument with core having to refrain from using contrib modules, But if a core module is this out of date and contrib modules can provide much more functionality, then why not just drop the forum module from core all together. It frees up the core development team to focus on newer ideas and the pain of maintaining out of date modules. While forums are important to a community web site, so are images, but the core team doesn't add imagecache or other image modules with good reason.
In regards to the comment module, yes I completely agree that there needs to be some admin options to copy, merge, split comments. I like the idea of node comments for the sake that it opens CCK to them, but I don't like the idea of the performance issues, the wide spread use of comment.module which is fine for 90% of users and the core team basically hating the idea.
I don't really use book either, it just seems like another piece of outdated software (I do like the basic premise of parent id's, maybe a CCK node reference addon could work to change the book module.
I don't like the idea of embracing old or superseded software, if CCK and Views can handle the job, let the core team point users to those well maintained projects and drop useless (or almost useless) modules from core, so they can work on advancing Drupal.
specmav, I pretty much agree
specmav, I pretty much agree - and made a list of modules I think would be better off in contrib back in October: http://groups.drupal.org/node/6143 - i.e. nearly everything that's not required by default or a dependency for lots of modules ;)
However it's very unlikely that forum will be taken out of core - Poll hasn't yet - so I'm more interested in exploring what we can do with advanced forum whilst keeping core forum as a dependency - and when that ceases to work, fork it in contrib and try to move that stuff back into core.
So, I agree, but it's much easier to get things into core than take them out.
re: post-installation profiles
It seems to me that there are a lot of 'recipes' for parts of sites that users like. What would be neat is a module that all it does is a bunch of post-installation stuff. Kind of like a mini-installion profile.
Want some more set views? - install views, then run this mini-installation profile to set up these views.
Want a forum? - install cck, views and some other module, then run this mini-installion profile to complete the set up of the forum.
Dave
.
I already suggested this over a year ago. I still think the idea has merit, but it was more than I was ready to take on at the time.
I am getting concerned about the splintering of effort around Drupal's forums. Especially if UIEForum moves to nodes, there will be a lot of duplication of effort. We already have nodeforum based on nodes and, as catch mentioned, we're hoping to move core forum to nodes. That effort has been postponed to D8 due to lack of time of key people. Maybe by then at least a lite version of views will be in core and we can look at moving some/all of forum's functionality to that. For D7, though, there is no way core forum can depend on views.
As to dropping forum freeing the "core development team", there is no such thing. Drupal core changes by people submitting patches. As far as I know, no one is even submitting them for forum at the moment, though there's a few I have in mind if I get to them before the freeze. So just dropping forum gains us nothing and would be detrimental as then core would have no forum solution.
Michelle
See my Drupal articles and tutorials or come check out the Coulee Region
I've already spoken to you
I've already spoken to you about the possibility of me joining forces with either you, or someone else to make a better forum module for Drupal. However, I'll have to make sure that there's an upgrade path for whomever wants to move from UIEForum to whatever the new module is (be that a node-uieforum, nodeforum, drubb module, or something else), so moving to nodes is pretty much a requirement for that :)
Definitely agree that there has been too much duplication of effort up to this point though. And will be for some time to come too.
Rarely use forum
Over the last 12-18 months, we have rarely used the forum module -- Core forum is useful in a site that has only forums, or where the forums serve a specific, obvious purpose.
For most sites, though, it becomes a usability issue -- "Should I create a blog post, or post into the forum? Where should I share an image?" etc etc.
Toward that end, we've used CCK and Views to provide the basic structure, and taxonomy and (in most cases) groups to categorize and provide context for "forums" -- this allows us to create more intuitive names for content types, which decreases end-user confusion.
In some ways, both the forum and the blog module (along with poll) make great candidates for removal from core.
Cheers,
Bill
FunnyMonkey
Tools for Teachers
FunnyMonkey
I am committed to supporting
I am committed to supporting core Forum/Advanced Forum for a project I am working on now.
Give the static state of core forums as a "core" dependancy, I am working on creating a module, or possibly modules that work with Advf and core forums.
One of the items I am working on now is to be able create a table that logs when a user looks at a forum container, or a forum topic thread. This will happen automatically, and will then show this list on a new page that is available (probably in the menu system)
This "list" will then supply some logic for navigating from one unread forum topic thread to the next. The module will also add a new set of buttons where a user replies at the end of a flatforum thread, allowing the user to either post and move on to the next forum topic in the list, or post and "view" the existing thread. These would override the existing "submit" button, (although the "preview" button will remain)
So, this is basically just adding some new functionality to existing advf/forum modules.
I wish along with catch that comments could be nodes for forums, but at this time I only have the bandwidth to add the functionality that I describe above.
I am in the phase right now of building out the module, and thinking about how to do these SQL queries. I have been looking at core watchdog module as a possible place to think about how to design the queries that create the logic list.
Just thought I'd share what I am working on, in case anyone else is interested in this, or even working on something like this (small chance, I can imagine).
When I have some code that works coherently together, I'll be sure to share that on g.d.o It's going to be veyr important for me to make this work well with advf and core forums, because the goal is that anyone will be able to download and use everything that we create along with existing drupal code, in both D5 and D6
Sam Rose
Social Synergy
Open Source Ecology
P2P Foundation
Sam Rose
Hollymead Capital Partners
P2P Foundation
Social Media Classroom
Would this work?
Hello, Sam,
Does this functionality need to be tied to the forum module?
The ability to display new posts currently exists in the (I think) tracker module, and is replicated in a a default view that ships with the Views module -- using this as a building block, you already have code that generates a list of all new nodes and comments for individual users.
The Clickpath module ( http://drupal.org/project/clickpath ) maintains a record of a user's page views --
Using these two pieces as building blocks/starting points, you could then filter on node type to create the previous/next functionality for any node type, or in other flexible ways as defined by use case -- this would separate the functionality from forums, and would have a variety of uses. For example, this would be incredibly useful for instructors/peer reviewers scrolling through submissions on a web site.
Given that you're working on this for a project, and I'm just using the question as an excuse to procrastinate :) you've probably sorted these issues out in more detail -- but I've found that, in some cases, using the core forum module, particularly in conjunction with a site with OG, creates more usability headaches than it solves.
Cheers,
Bill
FunnyMonkey
Tools for Teachers
FunnyMonkey
Bill, You are absolutely
Bill,
You are absolutely right, that this need not be tied to forum nodes alone. And it should be extendable to work with views.
So, what I need is a form that lets a user multiple select what node types this will apply to, taking from all existing active content types available.
I am still tasked with the "post and view/post and go" for forums in particular. But, that shouldn't stop me from making this usable by all node types.
It looks like Core forum/with advanced forums is here to stay for our project. But, your idea and feedback are really great here.
Also, we are now working with Drupal 5.7 due to some of the functionality modules like views not yet being fully ported to Drupal 6. We need Chatroom and a couple of other items that are not yet available for Drupal 6, and that we don't have the time bandwidth to prot forward on our own. So, I'd love to use clickpath, but we are kind of caught in a bind due to some specific functions that the project will be used for (namely teaching social media) and what is currently available to work with for Drupal 5.7 and Drupal 6
Never the less, for the Drupal 6 version of this, I am going to pursue your suggestion and use clickpath. For Drupal 5.7, I think I'll just create the specific functions that we need. But for our Drupal 6 version of the project, this would be awesome, and Drupal 6 version is really going to be what we'll be working with for the long haul. Drupal 5.7 version is really only a short term necessary evil that we will deprecate as soon as we can. So, thanks for the ideas. Very helpful.
Although I am also parallel developing this in Drupal 6.
Sam Rose
Social Synergy
Open Source Ecology
P2P Foundation
Sam Rose
Hollymead Capital Partners
P2P Foundation
Social Media Classroom
Just backported clickpath to
Just backported clickpath to drupal 5.7, by creating an .inc file for drupal_match_path function.
So, now what I think I'll do is see if I can somehow extend clickpath to become what we are talking about.
(I'll also post a patch for the backport, too...)
Sam Rose
Social Synergy
Open Source Ecology
P2P Foundation
Sam Rose
Hollymead Capital Partners
P2P Foundation
Social Media Classroom
Here is backport
Here is backport http://drupal.org/node/271721
I will try to copy the habit of Michelle on advanced forums, and make changes that will work with little modification in both D5 and D6
Sam Rose
Social Synergy
Open Source Ecology
P2P Foundation
Sam Rose
Hollymead Capital Partners
P2P Foundation
Social Media Classroom
Nice work!
Hello, Sam,
Looks like you ripped it up today!
Nice work!
Cheers,
Bill
FunnyMonkey
Tools for Teachers
FunnyMonkey
Thanks, Bill. I your advice
Thanks, Bill. Your advice has really helped.
Once difference between Tracker/Views, and what the people that I am working with are looking for, is the ability no just to show a view of what is new, but to actually "jump" a user to what is new, with the logic being driven by what they have looked at. And, they want it so that that it will take the user directly to the new content (like in forums, directly to the new post, even across pages). Which is a tall order, but one they are very firm on. This is basically a request to emulate some of the function that is found in http://www.caucuscare.com/inf_whatis.shtml in Drupal Forums.
But, I agree that this could be useful for almost any content type. In the short term, I am tasked with making this work with Forums, so that a user can post a reply and literally "go" directly and exactly to the next unread post in the forum.
Still, I am going to make the functions work in a way that will be extendable to all content types. What type of an affordance will exist to allow this "jumping around" per different content types is open for discussion (like what would be widely re-usable universal to new posts in many different content types). In my case, it has to work with both nodes and comments.
Sam Rose
Social Synergy
Open Source Ecology
P2P Foundation
Sam Rose
Hollymead Capital Partners
P2P Foundation
Social Media Classroom
Just got another idea on
Just got another idea on this:
Site admin can choose content types available for clickpath to follow.
This "jumping around" that I am describing is only really useful on nodes with comments attached (like forums, blog posts, etc)
So, user choses content types that they want mapped, clickpath generates a page based on those nodetypes, and clickpath adds a "post & view" (you stay on the page with this thread) "pass" (you post nothing and pass to the next unread comment in the next thread on you list) or "post and go" (you post to this thread and jump directly to the next unread comment in the next thread on your list). There is a form that let's you name these buttons whatever you want (eventually, for now they'll just have an arbitrary name).
Any content type that has comments can use this, forums, projects, blog posts, whatever. The list generated by clickpath, and your settings on your "follow" page allows you to take items out of the follow list, or re-arrange the order that you jump around through them (maybe it's weighted, maybe not. there will will be something soon that does this, though)
It sounds kind of kooky, but once you use a site in this way, it can really help you stay up to date on discussion threads (and not just forum discussion threads).
And, it's a proven affordance for encouraging participation and quick uptake in a discussion by literally thousands of people over more than 10 years at http://brainstorms.rheingold.com
Sam Rose
Social Synergy
Open Source Ecology
P2P Foundation
Sam Rose
Hollymead Capital Partners
P2P Foundation
Social Media Classroom
Nodeforum
Hi,
I do not know if I am off topic, but I finished nodeforum module, a while ago (forum module which uses nodecomments instead of comments).
See it in action on http://www.trekking-world.com/forum/579
It is under www.drupal.org/project/nodeforum Somebody else maintains the D6 nodeforum. So it is also alive in D6.
I do not have time/skills to build it steps further, but it is their for sharing!
greetings,
Martijn
what about this part of the forum with views?
I believe this should be possible in "theory" but there's one piece that I can't imagine how to do with views:
How do we achieve the "/forum/" page in Views?
knaddison blog | Morris Animal Foundation
Me neither
I wish it could... The query that gets that page is awful!
Michelle
See my Drupal articles and tutorials or come check out the Coulee Region
I raised this issue here:
I raised this issue here: http://drupal.org/node/391466
We're looking at this but likely to simply patch the module for our purposes as writing a module to allow views to generate this looks like far too much effort (if possible).
My take
Having worked with image gallery module quite a bit to see what I need to do to make views2 work for it, I'm enjoying dissecting existing stuff and trying to figure out how it could be done in views. So I took a moment and just went through our basic forums page to define what we're missing to do this properly.
Every area is color coded text+outline so that it's always understood what I'm specifically talking about.
Hope this helps.
Eclipse
Please see: Move Forum to
Please see: Move Forum to CCK + Views.