something i feel that drupal at this time is seriously lacking is interactive flash based themes.
a lot of people think that integrating flash with drupal is a no-go mainly because drupal is a php webapp...and flash is well.. a designers tool.
But if you can mash flex, actionscript 3.0, AMFPHP[a remote gateway specifically for flash and ,[ click here ] and the drupal services API. it is very well possible to envision a theme engine that allows users to create amazing flash sites with drupal.
basically it'll be a flash frontend doing RPC calls to a drupal backend that supplies the content to it. and since drupal is right there below the surface, we [possibly? i'm not sure about this] can have a module managing seo on the flash site!
i'd like this to be my summer of code project as i feel it would be a valuable addition to the community.
Comments
Building a Flash-only site in
Building a Flash-only site in Drupal? I think you posted this in the wrong group - try this one instead.
The Boise Drupal Guy!
for evil? lol Well its not
for evil? lol Well its not like it hasn't been done before, these days there is an opensource flex compiler. Even a decent as3 IDE on the googlecode project FlashDevelop!
I think you really have to be more specific with the theme engine idea. What will you attempt to make easier or robust?
I think the reason there are so few flash based themes is that the type of developer(s) that attempt this kind of site have to be very multidisciplinary and they probably create a large part of a framework or theme engine per each projects own requirements. IMHO the best interactive flash themes come from the attention and thought put into the UX while using 'flashy animations' not just for the sake of using 'flashy animations', there have been too many 'tacky' from the crazy of that crappy website intro movie era that should stay in the past ;)
well, see you have to admit -
well, see you have to admit - the most animated effects you can achieve in drupal is through jquery. and most of the time its good enough because drupal has such a kickass data management framework anyway..
i understand that flash sites are very specifically designed which is the reason people find it difficult to share or reuse flash themes in general. Also people who design flash websites are mainly designers not php programmers so its not practical to expect them to write a general framework to allow drupal sites to be connected to flash. and even then, out of a hundred people only 5 would even want their drupal site to have a flash UX.
i propose to write a base flash theme engine for drupal along with its AS3 framework on flash that can be easily extended upon by designers. so people can design their sites on flash and implement them with drupal. So the heavy work on connecting flash and drupal is done and people can concentrate on however they want their sites to look and behave instead. and that is kinda upto them.
i do realise that this is a very time consuming project and even then might lead to loads of issues before a stable model can be released.. but i hope to try anyway...
You may find these useful
You may find these useful some good work has already been done, although they are not 'theme engines' more like frameworks for most common things you will have to do.
I recently wrote my own way using these as examples to get the services calls as easy as it could be. This was a big help in learning about this type of thing, especially getting the the services authentication to work, which took me many hours.
http://thirdavedesign.com/drupalsite/
http://www.dpdk.nl/opensource/drupalservice-as-a-bridge-between-flash-an...
for evil? lol Well its not
It's not like slaughtering puppies hasn't been done before, or even every day. That doesn't make it right.
The Boise Drupal Guy!
I agree that doesn't make it
I agree that doesn't make it right although that is totally out of context, what I mean is that flash is a proven technology used with Drupal before, even on many largely successful commercial projects and modules.
some links
I've never done this, and probably wouldn't but its not like I think people that use Flash are (too, lol) evil.
There's even a book about this: http://drupal.org/node/478200
http://www.travistidwell.com/drupal_flash_interface
http://devzone.zend.com/article/2660
http://www.adobe.com/devnet/flash/articles/drupal_flash.html
http://groups.drupal.org/node/7512
http://groups.drupal.org/node/7989
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Nicolas
hmm.. well.. the only
hmm.. well.. the only arguments i'm seeing against using a flash theme layer are
load time - can be reduced by making the site load in parts maybe.. and well, maybe this cant be used for high load websites.. but it can be used for say a blog or a forum or just for the heck of it.
SEO unfriendly - what if we created both a HTML version and a flash version of the site that exist at the same time. so search engines can still see all content in the HTML versions of the pages, and there wont be any penalisation for duplicate content because well, the crawler cant see the flash stuff..
any more?
IIRC, it can be difficult to
IIRC, it can be difficult to design a Flash interface to browser-zoom gracefully, so there's decreased accessibility.
Flash sites by definition
Flash sites by definition have to use non-standard UI elements. Used to the look and behavior of your operating system's standard UI elements? What about things like text selection and keyboard navigation? Sorry, this is a Flash site, so you've got to do everything my arbitrary way.
Besides often being slow to download, Flash content is also slow to render, even if you aren't slowing it down with superfluous transition effects and such. Flash is also prone to crashing and can bring down an entire browser if it's not one of those swanky new ones that runs on multiple threads. RAM usage, CPU usage… Flash is not friendly in these regards.
The iPhone and iPad do not support Flash, and I can't imagine that navigating a Flash-based site on a phone which does support it would be much fun anyway.
Please, if you're going to be making an HTML version anyway, just let me use the damn HTML version. Let Flash be regulated to things it's actually good at. If your job is to build web sites that require Flash for everything, I want you fired and on the streets now, and I'm not even sorry for that.
The Boise Drupal Guy!
Flash is almost redundant anyway
I know there are a few things still around which are allowing flash to remain clinging on for dear life ie YouTube and other online video. However, once HTML 5 is in full swing I cant see any worthwhile need for flash. Its purpose is to animate and create rich ui. Much of what others here have already said would agree that there are much more tasteful ways to accomplish this.
Javascript Framework + imagination = no limit. (And any limits you do hit are those which shouldn't be found in a web browser anyway)
Drupal or any other CMS will never (or rather, should never) have a Flash framework from what I can see because the sheer thought of promoting a redundant technology is taking a step backwards and away from implementing a semantic web.
i will never understand this
all the flash hate. it's exactly the same as saying "HTML sucks because LOL BLINK TAG". look, flash is good at certain things, and HTML 5 isn't going to be close to any of those things, unless somewhere there's a scriptable timeline animation part of the HTML 5 spec that I haven't seen. HTML 5 is great, so is jquery, and we generally advise not to build all-flash sites primarily due to accessibility, SEO, and cost, but "we can do everything in Javascript than you can in Flash" is just an out-and-out falsehood.
and the whole "which shouldn't be found in a web browser anywhere" really reminds me of way back when, with Lynx users talking about Mosaic, it basically translates into "i don't like / grok this so stuff it" which really isn't productive at all, or in any way universal. what exactly shouldn't be found in a web browser? and who gets to define it?
the fact of the matter is that until recently there was NO alternative to Flash for any sort of animated / rich media web tech. sure, you can now do cool things with jQuery, but while any sort of animation / effects that are possible in jQuery are also possible in Flash, the opposite is far from true.
the whole "flash is evil" meme can easily be extended to "the net is evil" or "shoes are evil" - it makes no sense. annoying ads are annoying, bad code is bad code, doesn't matter whether it's flash or an animated gif or the blink tag.
and Drupal is EASILY the best thing for controlling / pushing content to a swf. hands down.
then there's always
then there's always openlaszlo for folks who don't like the closed part of flash (self included)...
Aaron Winborn
Drupal Multimedia (my book, available now!)
AaronWinborn.com
Advomatic
you raise a fair point
I will agree, time-line animation is important to some designers. However in essence, the fact that it appears on a timeline is just a neater visualisation of the scripts execution. Maybe the direction we should look at that problem is that Javascript has never been used before for animation purposes as widely as we've really seen it now. Well, at least that's my observation. Hence why we have never seen a timeline visualisation of Javascript execution in any IDEs.
Regards to why things shouldn't be in our browsers, this is not a brash attempt at saying my opinion is the only one that matters. Look at it like this: Why should I unknowingly run closed source code within my browser which has all the potential to drain the resources of my computer all for the sake of displaying an advertisement or viewing a video. There are cleaner, more open and effectively more stable ways this can be accomplished and will be accomplished. We cannot dictate who does what with their website and its content, however owners of websites should take responsibility for the effect their sites have on users machines. If this means killing off the technologies that are no longer needed in order to provide a better internet for everyone I'm all for it.
To say my argument translates into a "i don't like it so stuff it" would even hold water. There is a reason I don't like it, which at least I've explained and better yet have suggested an alternative. We can do an incredible amount with javascript. Just look at the Google Web toolkit. In essance our limits with javascript are becoming less and less. Its best advantage? A step forward toward a semantic web! Flash's advantages in the past are loosing ground. For now. Things which still require the use of flash slow our pages and crash our browsers. The internet is our own experience and shouldn't be hindered from flaky software. Keep flash for your games but stay the hell away from our web pages.
At the end of the day I don't want to see the potential of this GSOC Student spent on reviving what would be considered a special use case software.
what exactly shouldn't be
Good friggin' question.
Once upon a time, you had a computer and you had applications. You ran applications on your computer, and those applications behaved in a predictable way - if you started a spreadsheet application, it quietly showed you a grid where you could type in numbers; if you started up a game, it blasted music and sound effects and splattered blood across the screen. If you didn't like how any particular application worked, you could simply delete and never worry about it again. Viruses aside, nothing operated on your computer that you were not aware of or did not intend to have running.
Now here comes the web, and its scripting capabilities… and its Flash capabilities. A great resource for information and entertainment, to be sure, but it fundamentally changed the control we had over our computers; now code was running all the time which we did not request or even permit to run. Most of the time, it's harmless, or even beneficial and fun. But then comes people like you, asking us to punch a monkey when we just want to learn more about our favorite band, or blasting through our speakers that we've won a free iPod when we're doing research about marsupials… or hiding an entire site's worth of content between loading screens and obnoxious transitions - along with the same unrequested animation and sound that we experience from ads. Here, let me make it as difficult and annoying for you to find the information you're looking for as possible…
I don't friggin' want a "rich media experience" on the web. I want text and (appropriately sized and compressed) images. I only want sound and video and interaction if I ask for sound and video and interaction, so stop forcing it on me! It's my time, my eyes, my ears, and my computer!
You're right that HTML 5/JavaScript doesn't yet have the capabilities of Flash, especially if you take issues like browser compatibility under consideration, but most of what Flash can do that today's real-world HTML and JS can't is obnoxious stuff that the web shouldn't be doing anyway. You're also right in that it's the code that's evil, not the language; as HTML/JS gets more capable, we're going to see more of the same obnoxious and unnecessary stuff using that as we are using Flash (in some cases, that's already happened; this mess made Gruber today). Well, we'll burn that bridge when we get there. But clearly, today, the amount of malicious and annoying HTML/JS "rich media" on the web dwarfs that of Flash.
In conclusion… I have ClickToFlash (and FlashBlock, an equivalent for Firefox) on every non-server computer I use. If I go to your site and I see nothing but a big ClickToFlash box, you can bet that I'm going to think twice before I allow the Flash to load - and unless I really care about what I expect to see on the site, I'm just going to close that tab and move on. Thanks for trying to force that interactive rich media experience down my throat, Bub, but I think I'll go read a web page instead.
EDIT: Posting overlap with cclafferty… we ended up saying many of the same things, though he (?) was a bit nicer about it.
The Boise Drupal Guy!
as an iPHONE deveoper...
I know a lot of FLASH developers waiting to get into android development as soon as a flash SDK comes out. A couple months ago, they were all telling me that I was waisting my time with Objective-C when apple iPhones are technically capable of running flash, but jsut dont have the plugin yet. Fast forward, and apple has already announced that FLASH is out. Android has already said that FLASH is in the works, but HTML with webkit is already delivered, and continues to be developed. I just mention this because I think, from a smart phone perspective, HTML5 and stuff like jqTouch is probably a better investment in time than FLASH.
Please knock it off
This is supposed to be a thread about a proposed Summer of Code project. It is not a place for religious wars. There are lots of projects both past and present which can be interpreted as 'special use case software' (Android/iPhone projects, bookkeeping API, etc etc) Comment on the project on its own merits, and keep your personal feelings about the technology for another forum please.
agreed
When I commented on this I hadn't seen that tag and didn't read the last sentence. I just thought it was a post on Theme development about Flash interfaces powered by Drupal, and having an engine for this. I think it would be an useful idea for getting Flash designers into Drupal, but I think you need to do a lot more research before you do your proper proposal. Good luck!
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Nicolas
Yes I agree talking about
Yes I agree talking about flash in this manner is usually a circular argument by people who have already made up their minds.
The reality is that flash isn't going anywhere soon, it has a massive and very alive community as well as work opportunities. I think that this is a perfectly valid project although there is much work to be done for a proper proposal.
All the best wingie!!
Thanks a lot guys, you dont
Thanks a lot guys, you dont know how much i really appreciate this discussion..
now, before this proposal, i posted this one.
now, the reason i suggested a flash to drupal bridge is that once, a long time ago when i was a wee little lad, i was pretty good at flash. I had branched out to programming after that though an totally ignored flash for ages.. and i just recently learnt a little AS3 which made me appreciate how much flash has improved over the years, so i thought that bridging the two worlds together together would be a good project idea...
i personally feel that the drupal UX need a little animation in it to make it a little more appealing to people are more concerned that their sites must look "flashy" and "awesome" rather than functionality.. [trust me... it happens more than you would think.]
Now, i'm a little fix about my gsoc proposal - Animate Drupal API or a flash theme engine.
and after this discussion i'm leaning more towards using the jquery to Animate Drupal API rather than the flash one..
I'm sure that jquery would make code much cleaner and it would be a much more viable solution... but when dealing with jscript i'v always shied away from it because of browser incompatibities.. i mean say somebody was using IE6 to view the.. [and there are those people out there..].. the effects are done for... but flash - as long as they had the required shockwave plugin - would be fine - or it woudnt show..
what dyu guys think?
I like the idea of focusing
I like the idea of focusing on the animation first, then deciding on the appropriate technology. As you can tell from this discussion, an all-Flash front end will probably have (or at least SHOULD have) a pretty specialized use case, but something done via jQuery will probably see much wider adoption.
One of the beautiful aspects of use jQuery for your development is that it will mitigate the vast majority of any browser differences, so you can focus on a "create once, run anywhere" solution pretty much the same as using Flash.
I'd even suggest you try to talk to somebody involved with some of the UX aspects of D7 development, see if they have some insights into where some extra animation would make Drupal more usable (i.e. submit-once buttons that disable themselves once clicked) rather than just eye candy, but that's my personal preference.
I guess the other way to go at this would be as just a theme, but one that's centered around integrating lots and lots of animation.
Hello, I managed two website
Hello, I managed two website projects that the end user UI was 100% Flash. We used OpenLaszlo to render the Flash on-demand based on content from Drupal using Services - it was completed and used 3tera's AppLogic for systems. One site was pretty darn elegant, but the other was only so so. I am in the anti-flash crowed now, its not open, it works poorly on my Gnu/Linux computers....
BUT, even if I don't like it, it would still be pretty sweet in many ways. My two cents say creating interop with existing engines (and their themes) and OpenLaszlo (or AS) would be the way to go. Those with out Flash can be served up DHTML, those with can use it. HipHop for PHP recompiles to C, so why not get phptemplate->AS?
Good Luck!
Flash and Drupal can play nice
Flash and Drupal can play nice, without AMFPHP. I have created 3 sites using Drupal to manage content and display that content with Flash. It is not hard and I am in the process of creating a starter theme for all to use.
Sites:
www.pennzoil.com
www.serta.com
www.doner.com
Best of luck wingie!!!