Posted by amitaibu on June 18, 2010 at 4:57pm
The issue of renaming Organic groups (OG) to Group was raised in several places, but it's probably a good idea to have it in a central place which is accessible to many.
There are very good reasons for renaming the module, but just as good to not renaming it. Following the suggested Drupal Code of Conduct (#DCOC):
When we are unsure, we ask for help
I have created a Poll for us to vote. Let's write the comments in this discussion.
Please go over the above links -- people have already written their thoughts, and they are worth reading.
Oh, and the choices are only OG or Group... :)
Comments
Here's my reasoning: Clients
Here's my reasoning: Clients and Drupal newbies get scared when they first hear "Organic Groups." The word "organic" makes it more confusing and daunting to them. It's a horribly vague adjective to use in a CMS. I've implemented OG on dozens of Drupal sites and I still don't know why its "organic." (Though to be honest, it's easier to bill more hours to clients, since everything organic costs more!)
http://httpremix.com
Well, just "Groups" itself is
Well, just "Groups" itself is also vague, but I agree it's an improvement; "Organic Groups" is both vague and confusing.
The Boise Drupal Guy!
Pity it's singular
I understand it needs to be singular to match but, honestly, "group" is so much worse than "groups". I'd rather see node and user changed to nodes and users. :)
Michelle
Groups sounds better no
Groups sounds better no doubt, but it is about following core here - node_save() => group_save()
Yes
I did say I understood that. ;)
Michelle
The concern of people who
The concern of people who advocate against the name change is the fact the OG has many related modules.
Is it ok to expect related modules to create a new project page (e.g. og_vocab will be renamed to group_vocab) ?
I guess it's worth pointing the Ubercart people to this discussion, as they are going to face the exact same issue.
OG, how can I help you?
Personally, I like "OG" but this discussion just helped me realize that one of the reasons I like it so much is probably because as a youth I worked at a place called the Organic Grocery. I answered the phone with "OG, how can I help you?"
From the point of view of marketing and client relationships, "Group" is probably better as it's easier to explain. From that point of view, though, the name "Drupal" isn't that great, either.
I agree with Michelle. My preference is "Groups" and not "Group". I didn't vote for any of the 3 options.
I answered the phone with
If I called a place and some cheeky kid answered the phone with "Oh, gee, how can I help you?" I'd probably hang up in a huff and never shop there again.
The Boise Drupal Guy!
Yeah, nice one. Thanks for
Yeah, nice one. Thanks for your insightful comment.
I'm being sarcastic, by the way. Let's stay on focus.
Somewhat ambivalent
We've pretty much never used any of the defaults that come with OG - Group is probably a step closer to what the layperson will feel is intuitive, but given that over the past three to four years we have used groups for sections within a site, academic departments, magazines, classes, clubs, affinity groups, user defined communities, etc, it's not really realistic to expect to roll out a site with OG without overriding the defaults. The context within which the groups will be used helps define the language around what the actual groups should be called.
And with that said, I voted for "group" as the module name is less about appealing to developers, and more about appealing to end users. An end user, browsing the module page, will likely feel more comfortable with "group" -
And this has nothing to do with functionality; for better or worse, the extra adjective makes the functionality feel more complex than it actually is.
Cheers,
Bill
FunnyMonkey
Group in interface, keep with og project
The main reasona I don't want to see a name change is
So, I suggest we keep the same name and same project for consistency and to reduce confusion around this module.
I also feel that "Group" on it's own could be confused to be about something more like http://drupal.org/project/noderelationships or http://drupal.org/project/nodehierarchy while "Organic Groups" gives no preconceived notions of what it is so people come to it with an open mind to see "oh, this is like a forum but better."
knaddison blog | Morris Animal Foundation
@greggles, All the hundreds
@greggles,
Disregarding the reasons and looking only at the (similar) outcome -- In your opinion, how should Ubercart => Commerce deal with it?
Ubercart => Commerce is a
Ubercart => Commerce is a fork, not a casual renaming.
The developers of Commerce are not allowed to call it Ubercart and have had their commit rights to the Ubercart project removed (as far as I understand).
Can we please not use that as the basis for deciding what's reasonable to do here?
Forcing hundreds of project to potentially span off duplicate projects to match a new og -> groups shift just seems like a huge waste of effort, and frankly seems to push the boundary of irresponsible to me if there is no strong technical reason to do it.
Can we please not use that as
I'm not using it as the basis, I'm asking how can we reduce the confusion when we will meet the same problem. Maybe change the ubercart tag to Ubercart/ Commerce, dunno, that's why I'm asking..
I think that is a bit harsh, considering the fact that I'm doing this very publicly and very transparent. It's not enough voices to decide, but the fact that most results are in favor of the change, at least suggests there is something to it. Again, I'm not getting extra cash for the rename (or at all) -- ;) I truly want to get it right. I at least hope I can change your mind on my motives and that my intentions are for the good of the community.
Yes - I am being a bit harsh
Yes - I am being a bit harsh to try to make clear that I think it's really a bad idea.
I have already created a
I have already created a branch in github with renaming the modules back to "OG". The biggest reason for this, is that there aren't enough votes. So I think it will be safer to not change the name. However apart of prefix the function with OG, the terminolgy in UI/ menu will change to "group".
Generic names make it difficult to search for help
While I support the idea of a name that is not intimidating to new Drupallers, I have a concern that I haven't heard anyone mention: it's really challenging to do a search for help on a generically named module. The Insert module, for instance, is really hard to get help on using search because the name is used in so many other contexts within Drupal. For instance, a search on "drupal group configuration" or "drupal groups configuration" turns up a minority of results about Organic Groups - most are using "group(s)" in another sense. So that was my first concern when I heard about the name change.
Community history of OG + searchability = Keep name OG as is
I agree that a generic name is hard to search for. I think that the community history developed with OG (such as related modules and general knowledge of Drupal community members) and that doing a search on "drupal organic groups configuration" returns useful results, my vote is to keep it as Organic Groups.
As to whether "Organic" makes it more or less confusing, I think that should not be a big factor. The concept of groups and the implementation of OG is vague in itself (which is what makes it so useful to customize with other modules) and I don't think any name change will help that.
I vote to keep it as is.
That is indeed a good point
That is indeed a good point made by the lady wearing the silly hat. Looks like there's going to be similar problems with the Drupal Commerce project.
The Boise Drupal Guy!
Not a critical argument,
Not a critical argument, imho. Please google for "Views" or "Panels"... Neither of Drupal modules is viable without "drupal" prefix.
So "Groups" will be "Drupal Groups" anyway. The only disadvantage is search confusion with groups.drupal.org.
Imho such childish names as Ubercart are good for internal development nicknames (like Windows 98SE - "Memphis") but not for public brands. And especially in business environment.
As for Drupal Commerce, it'll be fine. Probably it will keep official project name as "Drupal Commerce" but will be reduced to just "Commerce" for modules administration. I'd prefer just "Commerce" whatever troubles it causes :)
Note: I'm no an advocate to DC. I do not develop it. Just I feel it will be a good module :)
Organic Group vs Group (Groups?) both have advantages and disadvantages. To me "Organic" prefix sounds stylish and unique. Seems that Americans are misunderstanding this word. Organ is a piece of body, as in anatomy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_(anatomy)
Just "Group" is fine. So my vote is for (Drupal) Group. Singular.
But keeping it "Organic" is ok too.
I believe this should be decided by the module developers, not by community. Authors should be happy and inspired :) As for users - we will accept any name as long as it provides a desired funcionality.
Not from where I sit
Page Rank
Yes, and all you'll find is a
Yes, and all you'll find is a project page @drupal.org
As soon as you start searching for any "views tips", "views know-how", etc. results will be far less interesting.
Ok, the maintainers already decided to keep the original title. So, drupal + organic + group + ... will be even more pricise for searching.
Yes. I see what you mean but
Yes. I see what you mean but I often use strings that the module puts out to zoom in on what I want and yes, I almost always prepend "drupal" to the search terms. Maybe a good idea is to allow modules to declare an alias in their .info file. No that would cause even more confusion.
All the best
+1 for 'Organic' Groups
The concept of Organic Groups is one of the features that originally drew me to Drupal. When I initially saw the term 'Organic' I didn't think of produce or grocery products, but of what the term 'organic' signifies: living, breathing, organic systems. The logical intent of OG and its contrib modules has seemed, to me at least, to be a platform with which users can have greater levels of agency within a drupal site, where content and various tools were available to group members given their interests or intent. Thus OG gives Drupal Developers the ability to provide infrastructure for 'ecological' forms of community organization. Users are usually free to join as many groups as they like, and have a space in which they can contribute content within that frame of discussion or common interest. The dynamics of OG feel pretty 'Organic' to me, in that sense.
Organic = (to me)
Further Reading:
Information Ecology
Knowledge Ecology
Ecosystem Model
Business Ecosystem
Also, the OG acronym is a lot more interesting and exciting than 'Groups'. Also, in many other content management systems, 'groups' tends to refer to something with far less functionality, such as user groups with shared permissions.
+1 for organic groups
+1 for organic groups (OG) in the project name. Keep as it is.
In the user interface make it translatable (I think it is already, in most places). There are several international websites emerging using OG and for those websites, the word "organic", "group" or "groups" is not relevant anyway.
So Why fuss about a word which is "english" only?
And if the world population is any guide, I won't be surprised if there are far more chinese or indian websites than english using OG in future. DO you want change it again when it happens for international clients? Perhaps we may be already at a threshold where english OG websites are lesser than all non english websites collectively together.
IMHO There are far important features and fixes needed where we can focus our energy.
(Speaking from my own personal experience. I am Webmaster of a non english OG website with 230+ groups, 29K total subscribers with largest group having 11,237 active members. )
+1 for OG
Leave it alone.
John
+1 for OG
OG is definitive. "Group" already means so many things to so many people. Having clients be "scared" of the term "Organic Groups" sounds really minor considering they've already opted to use a CMS called "Drupal". (I'm just glad we don't have to sell people "Dorp"...)
Organic is descriptive IMHO
+1 for OG with a simple echo of rerooting. I have always been drawn to Organic Groups due to the implied promise of living breathing groups developing into a community.
I am a Drupal Advocate...
I am not a developer but I am a staunch drupal advocate. Discovered this CMS 4 years ago and loved the flexibility. I have probably familiarized myself with it more than your average end user as i used to code (Long ago). But I never explored OG or Civi modules because of the names. I just assumed "Oh these are for some very specific functionality that I don't need" and not a more "general" use. I think Organic Groups was just a bad name to begin with. It may be a pain to rename the other titles. But do you run with a bad Idea just because its there. There are far more Drupal releases ahead of us than behind us. Its never to late for a course correction. Besides I thought the whole concept behind D7 was improving the end user experience.
Just my 2 Cents
Rename it in Drupal 7, leave
Rename it in Drupal 7, leave it in 6 as Organic.