We wish to raise a concern about the creation of a Drupal UK Association.
Whilst creation of a wider forum within the United Kingdom is broadly welcomed, we object to the proposed scope and use of 'UK' in the group's name. The most recent discussion has been between individuals and user groups within England and Wales and has not involved direct discussion with Drupal Scotland ("The Scottish Drupal Association"). Previously Drupal Scotland has expressed concerns about creation of a UK Association, but this appears to have been ignored in this most recent initiative. The matter was also raised at our most recent AGM, where such concern was unanimously supported.
Drupal Scotland is a national association formally established in 2011 that has its own funding, its own constitution, its own AGM, its own committee, its own annual camp, its own business group and regional user groups spread across the country.
Creation of a 'UK' or 'British' group would undermine Drupal Scotland and impede our future opportunities for sponsorship and engagement with business.
Therefore, we cannot support the current constitution proposed for approval on 31 January 2020.
Signed:
Robert Carr
Duncan Davidson
Rachel Findlay
Bryan Gullan
John Hume
Aaron McHale
I support Drupal Scotland's concerns. In particular the risk that sponsorship and other funds will be diluted or diverted.
We've already seen this situation where camps in the north of England (Manchester/NW, Leeds/Yorkshire, Newcastle/Gateshead/NE) found ourselves competing for sponsorship - among each other, and with the London camp. (No fault of the London camp organizers; a capital city advantage just puts them on potential sponsor's doorsteps, I think.)
For Drupal Yorkhire, we lost the will to organize a camp, and decided sprints were more fun. NWDUG found a new direction with their unconventions.
As has previously been stated the name has not been confirmed yet. This is starting to turn political and we need to be careful. Funding will all be separate and not from any other party in the UK as it will be a separate entity.
Posted by euanfergusson on January 31, 2020 at 2:25pm
i dont think any variation of UK / British can do anything other than give the impression that this lead drupal organisation in the UK, sitting above regional / national associations.
While the funding obviously will be separate , the funding sources will not be
I agree that care should be taken, and i suggest rethinking the current rush to adopt a constitutions and elect members should be reigned in
Geographic scope
We should note that Ireland and Scotland already have their own Associations working hard for their communities, and that not only should we avoid treading on their toes, but we should avoid trying to do things on behalf of their communities.
So let’s be clear here, we’re trying to set something up to cover England and Wales. We suspect though that a number of the existing European associations will come together in some way in a number of years, and we may find that actually we end up ‘working’ together in the future anyway.
Although I respect the concerns, I truly can't see where the basis generating these thoughts below may come from:
Creation of a 'UK' or 'British' group would undermine Drupal Scotland and impede our future opportunities for sponsorship and engagement with business.
The group has had exactly 3 meetings, learning initial steps from other regional associations as well as ideas and experiences from the meetings participants. Everything has done publicly and always underlining the care we should have to not step on other local pre-existing organisations. On the contrary, participants have come up with rules and plans to exactly avoid the concerns above. Suggestions have always been accepted so far, including the ones preventing undermining issues and conflicts.
The fact no one from Scotland has joined the meetings - AFAIK - to validate these concerns, may highlight some form of prejudice which DOES undermine communities at their base.
In order to create union and sense of community is often necessary to put aside personalism, preconception and regionalism and... talk. Talk to see if there are common grounds, if the union can generate a stronger community, if the many is a truly improvements compared to the solo.
And by talking you can often find out that is true.
And while talking you also become part of the process, putting yourself as a validator and gatekeeper of some ideas.
Staying outside and pointing the finger does pretty much never bring good.
I believe a national association can only benefit every local community. I can bet many drupalists living across UK know NOTHING about the great work NWDUG has done with Unconference. And I talk by experience because I've been promoting it a lot in the past 2 years, always stunned by the "Really? I didn't know anything about it. It's truly amazing!".
I can bet there are a lot of drupalists who would love to join Drupalcamp Scotland, if they wouldn't feel it as a separated or distant region/event/reality/whatever.
I believe a promotion of local events from a national association, both for attendees and sponsors, can only benefit the UK community.
Now my concerns: how silly is to have a "Drupal Scotland" and a "Drupal rest-of-UK-whatever" association? And, afterall, is the name really the issue?
Would the problem disappear if the association name was "United Drops", gathering members and sponsors all around the country NOT because self-promotion or due identifying itself as THE UK Drupal association, but because its activities, commitments and dedications bring positive changes to many people life and those people feel inspired and wanted to be part of this movements? And this inspiration happens across all the country?
Wouldn't that positive wave still "undermine Drupal Scotland and impede our future opportunities for sponsorship and engagement with business"? IMHO it would. Not because United Drops has done "bad", but because Drupal Scotland didn't want to be part of it.
Please don't take my words as an accuse, or an insult. They don't want to be so.
I'm just an advocate of unity, communion, family. Make peace, no "Divide et Impera"!
"I believe a national association can only benefit every local community."
Isn't this the problem? Scotland does have a national association. :) Scotland isn't a local community, or a region of the UK (such as the North West of England) - it is a country. It's got it's own distinct legal system, government, bank notes, football and rugby teams.
Posted by euanfergusson on February 2, 2020 at 1:37pm
im sorry gambry but your post just highlights the ill informed london centric view that we Scots are concerned about
first - no it is not "silly" to have a drupal scotland community, first off , we arent a region and the UK isnt a nation (its 4 nations)
secondly - the business and IT landscape is markedly different up here, much of business and education policy is devolved to the Scottish parliament.
thirdly - yes the name matters if it gives the impression that this new group somehow sits above regional and national associations, if you dont believe the name is important , why use a UK type name ?
fourthly - it has been clearly stated above that this group is an "england and wales" group , so aside from being factually incorrect to call it a UK group, it has the negatives of both, it would become the defacto UK group (as many people from outside the UK do not understand the difference between UK, GB and England, tbh many from south of the watford gap struggle with this distinction too) , however it would offer no support , organisation or funding to anyone outside of England and Wales
Posted by technotim2010 on February 2, 2020 at 2:06pm
Hi
I can see precisely the reasoning as to how the concept of a UK wide Drupal Association group for the "UK" (whatever the hell that is anymore btw) would annoy Drupal Scotland.
That is not our intention at all. Our intention is to promote Drupal in the countries of England, Wales and maybe other locations related to it. I think we agreed a name on Friday of "Promote Drupal" which at least removes the contentious "UK" from the name, but I think that our constitution still references the UK elsewhere.
It may be that we have to define the geographical boundaries of our scope and amend our constitution to reflect that.
We would be keen to, once set up, collaborate with and help promote Drupal Scotland events when we are set up, we have no intention of being or appearing to be, a form of "Overlord" for Drupal promotion and marketing in the Great Britain over and above Drupal Scotland, but to operate alongside you. If we can get the scope of our group correct and adjust our constitution accordingly to reflect this, then hopefully Drupal Scotland will be happy for us to continue developing.
Just my twopenneth really. I get your point, I get your requirement to be independent (both in Drupal terms and for many politically).
We got the impression on Friday during our well attended meeting that we get this principle as a group.
Let us iterate and get our t's and c's right so we don't offend anyone north of the border.
im sorry gambry but your post just highlights the ill informed london centric view that we Scots are concerned about
My post was about giving an opinion on how powerful working united is, compared to working against it.
And just to clarify: mine is not a London view. I'm from Italy and honestly I don't care a lot about if and how much "separated" the UK is.
I do care about the community, and I just thought together we could do more. ..and maybe even go behind what governments can't do and teach them a lesson! :D
It may be that we have to define the geographical boundaries of our scope and amend our constitution to reflect that.
If not silly, then how sad is what Tim is picturing above?
(@Tim I understand the logic behind and I'm with you mate! I just wanted to try and see if that could have been avoided)
And if the passion behind "let's try to be united" is not enough, I raise a practical example we may need to add to the constitution to workaround this boundaries reflection:
I wanted to propose as one of the first activities to partner with a non-profit organisation supporting refugees and disadvantaged individuals with the dream of becoming developers. This organisation runs classes in London, Manchester and Glasgow.
And I can't just picture on my mind how to say "We can talk about London and Manchester, but we have geographical boundaries of our scope and you need to open a separated discussion with Drupal Scotland about Glasgow"... or there can be exception to those boundaries?
Finally: BTW I'm not a big fan of the "UK" or "Britain" or any geopolitical name. I've in fact proposed simply "Drops". I'm just a fan of working as a community, that's it.
Comments
Dial in and details:
Dial in and details: https://acquia.zoom.us/j/3317229203
Dial in and details:
--
Statement on behalf of Drupal Scotland
We wish to raise a concern about the creation of a Drupal UK Association.
Whilst creation of a wider forum within the United Kingdom is broadly welcomed, we object to the proposed scope and use of 'UK' in the group's name. The most recent discussion has been between individuals and user groups within England and Wales and has not involved direct discussion with Drupal Scotland ("The Scottish Drupal Association"). Previously Drupal Scotland has expressed concerns about creation of a UK Association, but this appears to have been ignored in this most recent initiative. The matter was also raised at our most recent AGM, where such concern was unanimously supported.
Drupal Scotland is a national association formally established in 2011 that has its own funding, its own constitution, its own AGM, its own committee, its own annual camp, its own business group and regional user groups spread across the country.
Creation of a 'UK' or 'British' group would undermine Drupal Scotland and impede our future opportunities for sponsorship and engagement with business.
Therefore, we cannot support the current constitution proposed for approval on 31 January 2020.
Signed:
Robert Carr
Duncan Davidson
Rachel Findlay
Bryan Gullan
John Hume
Aaron McHale
Drupal Scotland Committee
31 January 2020
I support Drupal Scotland's
I support Drupal Scotland's concerns. In particular the risk that sponsorship and other funds will be diluted or diverted.
We've already seen this situation where camps in the north of England (Manchester/NW, Leeds/Yorkshire, Newcastle/Gateshead/NE) found ourselves competing for sponsorship - among each other, and with the London camp. (No fault of the London camp organizers; a capital city advantage just puts them on potential sponsor's doorsteps, I think.)
For Drupal Yorkhire, we lost the will to organize a camp, and decided sprints were more fun. NWDUG found a new direction with their unconventions.
Statement on behalf of Drupal Scotland
I second the statement from Drupal Scotland
As has previously been stated
As has previously been stated the name has not been confirmed yet. This is starting to turn political and we need to be careful. Funding will all be separate and not from any other party in the UK as it will be a separate entity.
i dont think any variation of
i dont think any variation of UK / British can do anything other than give the impression that this lead drupal organisation in the UK, sitting above regional / national associations.
While the funding obviously will be separate , the funding sources will not be
I agree that care should be taken, and i suggest rethinking the current rush to adopt a constitutions and elect members should be reigned in
Last time around
The last time we had these discussions we settled on:
Drupal England & Wales
From: https://groups.drupal.org/node/285888
I did try and warn this time in the Google doc: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1RjSH_u6NL6bJ3VY8wY7EYBjPnTUsONEPYb0i...
then call it Drupal England &
then call it Drupal England & Wales
Although I respect the
Although I respect the concerns, I truly can't see where the basis generating these thoughts below may come from:
The group has had exactly 3 meetings, learning initial steps from other regional associations as well as ideas and experiences from the meetings participants. Everything has done publicly and always underlining the care we should have to not step on other local pre-existing organisations. On the contrary, participants have come up with rules and plans to exactly avoid the concerns above. Suggestions have always been accepted so far, including the ones preventing undermining issues and conflicts.
The fact no one from Scotland has joined the meetings - AFAIK - to validate these concerns, may highlight some form of prejudice which DOES undermine communities at their base.
In order to create union and sense of community is often necessary to put aside personalism, preconception and regionalism and... talk. Talk to see if there are common grounds, if the union can generate a stronger community, if the
manyis a truly improvements compared to thesolo.And by talking you can often find out that is true.
And while talking you also become part of the process, putting yourself as a validator and gatekeeper of some ideas.
Staying outside and pointing the finger does pretty much never bring good.
I believe a national association can only benefit every local community. I can bet many drupalists living across UK know NOTHING about the great work NWDUG has done with Unconference. And I talk by experience because I've been promoting it a lot in the past 2 years, always stunned by the "Really? I didn't know anything about it. It's truly amazing!".
I can bet there are a lot of drupalists who would love to join Drupalcamp Scotland, if they wouldn't feel it as a separated or distant region/event/reality/whatever.
I believe a promotion of local events from a national association, both for attendees and sponsors, can only benefit the UK community.
Now my concerns: how silly is to have a "Drupal Scotland" and a "Drupal rest-of-UK-whatever" association? And, afterall, is the name really the issue?
Would the problem disappear if the association name was "United Drops", gathering members and sponsors all around the country NOT because self-promotion or due identifying itself as THE UK Drupal association, but because its activities, commitments and dedications bring positive changes to many people life and those people feel inspired and wanted to be part of this movements? And this inspiration happens across all the country?
Wouldn't that positive wave still "undermine Drupal Scotland and impede our future opportunities for sponsorship and engagement with business"? IMHO it would. Not because United Drops has done "bad", but because Drupal Scotland didn't want to be part of it.
Please don't take my words as an accuse, or an insult. They don't want to be so.
I'm just an advocate of unity, communion, family. Make peace, no "Divide et Impera"!
"I believe a national
"I believe a national association can only benefit every local community."
Isn't this the problem? Scotland does have a national association. :) Scotland isn't a local community, or a region of the UK (such as the North West of England) - it is a country. It's got it's own distinct legal system, government, bank notes, football and rugby teams.
im sorry gambry but your post
im sorry gambry but your post just highlights the ill informed london centric view that we Scots are concerned about
first - no it is not "silly" to have a drupal scotland community, first off , we arent a region and the UK isnt a nation (its 4 nations)
secondly - the business and IT landscape is markedly different up here, much of business and education policy is devolved to the Scottish parliament.
thirdly - yes the name matters if it gives the impression that this new group somehow sits above regional and national associations, if you dont believe the name is important , why use a UK type name ?
fourthly - it has been clearly stated above that this group is an "england and wales" group , so aside from being factually incorrect to call it a UK group, it has the negatives of both, it would become the defacto UK group (as many people from outside the UK do not understand the difference between UK, GB and England, tbh many from south of the watford gap struggle with this distinction too) , however it would offer no support , organisation or funding to anyone outside of England and Wales
Why we need an association but don't want to tread on toes
Hi
I can see precisely the reasoning as to how the concept of a UK wide Drupal Association group for the "UK" (whatever the hell that is anymore btw) would annoy Drupal Scotland.
That is not our intention at all. Our intention is to promote Drupal in the countries of England, Wales and maybe other locations related to it. I think we agreed a name on Friday of "Promote Drupal" which at least removes the contentious "UK" from the name, but I think that our constitution still references the UK elsewhere.
It may be that we have to define the geographical boundaries of our scope and amend our constitution to reflect that.
We would be keen to, once set up, collaborate with and help promote Drupal Scotland events when we are set up, we have no intention of being or appearing to be, a form of "Overlord" for Drupal promotion and marketing in the Great Britain over and above Drupal Scotland, but to operate alongside you. If we can get the scope of our group correct and adjust our constitution accordingly to reflect this, then hopefully Drupal Scotland will be happy for us to continue developing.
Just my twopenneth really. I get your point, I get your requirement to be independent (both in Drupal terms and for many politically).
We got the impression on Friday during our well attended meeting that we get this principle as a group.
Let us iterate and get our t's and c's right so we don't offend anyone north of the border.
Tim
@tim that sounds more
@tim that sounds more acceptable (tho i dont speak for Drupal Scotland)
The W.I.S.E
The W.I.S.E Association
Wales, Ireland, Scotland, England.
sorry if my input wasnt welcome. just throwing it out there
The W.I.S.E
Ah clever acronym :) but I think that would directly step on the toes of both Drupal Ireland and Drupal Scotland there, as has been illustrated above.
ever decreasing circles
yeah i was keeping up, pity, i would have thought a larger more inclusive group would give more folk more support in the long run
My post was about giving an opinion
My post was about giving an opinion on how powerful working united is, compared to working against it.
And just to clarify: mine is not a London view. I'm from Italy and honestly I don't care a lot about if and how much "separated" the UK is.
I do care about the community, and I just thought together we could do more. ..and maybe even go behind what governments can't do and teach them a lesson! :D
If not silly, then how sad is what Tim is picturing above?
(@Tim I understand the logic behind and I'm with you mate! I just wanted to try and see if that could have been avoided)
And if the passion behind "let's try to be united" is not enough, I raise a practical example we may need to add to the constitution to workaround this boundaries reflection:
I wanted to propose as one of the first activities to partner with a non-profit organisation supporting refugees and disadvantaged individuals with the dream of becoming developers. This organisation runs classes in London, Manchester and Glasgow.
And I can't just picture on my mind how to say "We can talk about London and Manchester, but we have geographical boundaries of our scope and you need to open a separated discussion with Drupal Scotland about Glasgow"... or there can be exception to those boundaries?
Finally: BTW I'm not a big fan of the "UK" or "Britain" or any geopolitical name. I've in fact proposed simply "Drops". I'm just a fan of working as a community, that's it.