NYC Drupal Camp 6?! let's start the ball rolling
I've heard some rumblings about the next drupal camp and figured that the discussion would be best posted here.
I would like to see us do the next Camp before the upcoming DrupalCon, maybe the last weekend in feb. or maybe even two weeks after DrupalCon, the 3rd weekend in March.
Considerations:
Space: it would be nice to move to a larger space. I'm sure we could still get the same space at NYU-Poly in Brooklyn, but we've sorta outgrown it. So, what other spaces might we look at? There was some word a while back that the UN had a facility we might use, I'm also going to see what we might get from the CUNY grad center. MAybe there's a student group at Hunter, NYU or the New School that could sponsor the event and get us access to free (or low cost) space. post some ideas!
when: while this mostly depends on when the facilities we use are available, what would people prefer?
happy new year!
Ical feed
The New School
I went to/worked at the New School for 8 years, and Ezra currently attends, so we both might be able to poke around and find someone to sponsor the event.
Ezra- any groups that you know of using Drupal at the New School?
Alex Urevick-Ackelsberg
ZivTech: Illuminating Technology
great!
OCTL is about to start a project for the CUNY teacher's union, so I'm going to ask them if there is any way they can help us get space at the CUNY grad center or Hunter.
Let's take a week or two to do some outreach and fact-finding and then meet online to discuss the pros and cons of whatever options we find.
New School venue: Parson's Design & Technology?
I have some contacts there and they're certainly tech-y enough. They'd actually be a good candidate for ongoing Drupal outreach/programming. I will warn you guys though: Podcamp was held at the New School a few years ago, and I've heard that entanglements with sponsors (who thought they'd bought control over the event, not just a poster with their logo on it) made it VERY difficult. So be forewarned. On the other hand, it would be great to have a good event at the New School and put it on the list of go-to venues for -camps.
yey! cant wait :)
yey! cant wait :)
I started calling around the New School
Great idea, Alex. I've often thought it might be nice to bring a Drupal event to the New School. I've started making a few calls to figure out how to get space and have enjoyed the usual "call this other person" runaround, but it seems there are two options, which I'll pursue, for having an event like ours at the New School. The first option is to pay for the space (I will try to find out what it costs) and the second option is to get it sponsored/endorsed by a faculty member. I know one professor is teaching a class on Internet Activism, so I'll contact him and see if he's interested in sponsoring the event. I'll report back here.
One question is how much space we need/how many people we need to accommodate. Looking at the numbers for past Drupalcamps, we'd want to have about 200 people and 4 or 5 different session rooms. Does that sound reasonable? Please let me know and I'll continue with calls + emails.
Let's get this rolling :D!
thanks for making the calls
thanks for making the calls.
First step is to see if any of the possible spaces are available for free or very low cost. Then if none are, we can decide based on costs, location and how much space is available.
I would like to see this camp able to take 300 - 350 people, based on how fast the last 3 have filled up and how many people wanted to but could not attend the last one due to the 250 person cap.
We would want one room large enough for everyone, and 2-4 other rooms for sessions.
Is that a realistic
Is that a realistic expectation ? last time we expected a lot but i was surprised by the low turnout.
The usual turnouts are about 50% of the total people that signed up, so even if our whole group decides to sign up we still won't break the 300 mark.
However if we plan to do a lot of marketing for this camp (something we haven't done for the previous one) then we should be able to achieve much larger participants count than in my skeptical mind. perhaps we should brainstorm how we are going to PR the event :).
Eric are you going to manage donations this time again? we should putup chippin link for easier contributions.
low turnout?
We had about 80% - 90% the first day and 50% the second (which is typical)
I don't think we had any empty seats for the initial session on the first day, I thought it was a very good turnout.
If we have a large enough space, we could do more outreach. When we get over 100 registrations within 48 hours of announcing the event (as we had last time) there's little reason to to outreach and publicity for the event.
If we can't find anyone else willing to handle the money side of things, Openflows would be willing to handle it again. When the event is so low in overhead, I hate seeing such a high percentage going to paypal or chipin. But that like everything else is always up for debate and discussion.
Setup a homepage then promote that.
We could setup a unique domain just for PR purposes, I can do some web and print flyers that we can all pass around but the website can be promoted online to various related sites, I'm very good at SEO and could get us ranked up in little time, also If we need a high performance server I can provide too. Looking forward to finally meeting and linking with the group users, I got a ton of ideas to spread around...
community event based in community infrastructure
there has been much debate on this in the past and the NYC group has repeatedly and explicitly decided to not run the drupal camps on their own domain, but only via groups.drupal.org or barcamp (or any other community controlled infrastructure).
check out the old threads (I'll try to find them and post the urls later) for all the reasons behind this perspective.
thanks for the offer, and I'm sure there will be some way for you to plug into the effort to organize the event.
A halfway point?
Apologies if this alternative has already been discussed (or if it violates a ToS I haven't seen), but what about a search- and person-friendly domain that points to a page here dedicated to the DrupalCamp info, coupled with a grassroots push to encourage members to promote that URL on their own blogs, forums, etc, to drive people here, with some SEO tips for more effective backlinking?
This would facilitate better rankings and easier promotion while maintaining this group as the info and communication hub.
Thoughts?
Amy C. Cham
Tech/Marketing Convergence Manager
Tree House Agency
Twitter: amycham
has not been necessary
The event is very self-promoting, to the point that we've never had to worry about it from this sort of "marketing" perspective. We've never had a camp that did not have a waiting list for registrations.
There has been some discussion of working on a general drupalcamps.org site that could be like g.d.o but specifically for drupal camps. I'd rather see people put their energy into something more community centric like that than spend money on domain names that are not necessary.
We have had no trouble with being accessible via search engines, with people finding out about the event, etc., so to me this seems like spending time and money to fix something that is not broken.
the "ownership problem"
The most critical reason to not take this sort of path is the issue of ownership.
Once one person or group is in control over a domain name, the power dynamic changes, the potential for divisive struggle is introduced.
This has been discussed in depth in the older threads I made reference to, so I won't go into too much detail here. I think the arguments made in those threads are still very important, even more so as drupal gains in popularity and this group grows in diversity.
Who's in charge? no one and everyone. It's easier to ensure it stays that way if we use community-centric infrastructure.
The first time someone tried to force a separate domain name on the nyc drupalcamps is a perfect example of why it is a bad idea. This individual, meaning well, without any discussion or input from the group registered a domain and declared it the new home of drupal camp nyc.
The group clearly rejected the idea and there was a clear desire to keep the camp on community controlled infrastructure and domains.
The person with the new domain, who had stated himself as "in charge" of drupal camp nyc, after seeing that his idea was not going to find support, simply dropped out/vanished, leaving a vacuum that Sam T. and I jumped in to for that camp. He's since come back, and even put some money up in sponsorship of other nyc drupal camps. But if we had left anything in a domain under his control it could have been very ugly when he decided to take his toys and go home.
Gotcha. I've seen the
Gotcha. I've seen the discussions on hosting; didn't realize that a domain scenario had happened.
Just thought I'd throw the idea out there, but I can see how ownership could create issues.
Amy C. Cham
Tech/Marketing Convergence Manager
Tree House Agency
Twitter: amycham
The "who speaks for the group" problem
Re "The group clearly rejected the idea and there was a clear desire to keep the camp on community controlled infrastructure and domains."
I can't resist saying that it's not at all clear to me that "the group" has a strong opinion one way or the other. It's quite clear that a few very vocal people claim to speak for the group on this matter. It's also clear that the idea of using any site or domain other than the NYC groups.drupal area is a complete non-starter, so it would be better to put our energy into something other than rehashing this topic. But the mere fact that this keeps coming up again and again is an indication that there is no solid consensus.
jean
Jean Gazis
www.jeangazis.com
www.webhostny.com
I agree on letting it go.
I agree on letting it go. The suggestion wasn't intended to stir debate or create a distraction.
Amy C. Cham
Tech/Marketing Convergence Manager
Tree House Agency
Twitter: amycham
I think the confusion comes
I think the confusion comes when people look at it from " either or " perspective. I believe that the more the merrier as long as we decide on some fundamental rules such as 'not splitting the community from it's home' and 'always linking back to the g.d.o/nyc' or something along those lines, oh and very importantly not to create memberships outside groups.drupal.org/new-york-city. i think that last one is very important.
If we can all agree on those rules then i see no problem with, and in fact will encourage, creating different sites that promote our group and group home page.
we have numerous domains at our disposal (nydrupal.org, nycdrupal.org, drupalnyc.org - i think, etc etc), plus we have hosting sponsored for the group so there's no ownership dispute possible.
Bottom line: We have a lot of options available at our disposal and we shouldn't settle for an exclusive 'either or' scenario. If some one wants to promote the group i encourage them to do so as long as they don't try to compete or split the group from it's home.
P.S. sites like http://drupalcon.org/ make me jealous :-D. why cant we have something as nice to promote our local group activities ?
indeed this is a long
indeed this is a long discussed topic. however i personally believe that it is fine to use an external website for PR if following some basic rules, such as if that site makes it very aparent that this group page is THE (and only) homepage for the group and links back to the group home page as much as possible. Personal efforts to promote the group activities are always welcome.
For flyers and stickers you should contact Charles Novick (http://groups.drupal.org/user/6251) for he have helped the group on number of occasions with designs and finding good printing companies.
Thanks!
The New School
I can help with this Ezra. What is the consensus as far as the needs - 300 people, one room where everyone can fit and then 4 to 5 session rooms?
Polytech
Since Oleg points out that finding a larger location might not be necessary, I've sent an email to the folks at NYU-Poly, where we've hosted the previous 5 NYC DrupalCamps to see if they can host the event again. It's probably one of the best locations, in terms of subway accessibility and could be the least expensive option as well, but let's find out what all our options are and then decide.
Poly is available
NYU Poly is available for the end of Feb.
I think that like last time our only costs would be custodial fees, which came to about $600 total for both days. I'll see if we can get a department there to sponsor the event so we could avoid those fees as well, but I don't expect that to happen.
lots of other -camps
hey gang! when planning a date, make sure to be in the loop of other big tech camps as to prevent a scheduling conflict. Feb to March may see BarCampNYC4, Startup Weekend, and SxSW (to name a few).
always a conflict with something
It is indeed important to try to not conflict with other events, but no matter when we try to plan, we'll have a conflict with something.
Best thing to do, from what has been learned from the past 5 camps, is start by researching the availability of spaces, then put up a poll to see how many people might have a conflict and try to plan as best as possible to minimize those overlaps.
let's set a deadline for hearing back from people on space?
anyone object to setting a deadline of this friday? If we don't hear back from the New School (I've also contacted some professors there so we have 3 people trying to get info from them at this point), or the CUNY Grad Center by friday, let's pick a date and go with the offer from NYU-Poly again.
It seems like it would be
It seems like it would be good to be more clear on the # of people we're expecting before setting that deadline, though having a deadline is a good idea.
@Eric: You reported at the Wiki of Drupalcamps in 2008 that we had 170 attendees on the first day for DrupalcampNYC5 and I also recall that more people tend to sign up than actually show up. However, looking at the signups for that camp only 173 people signed up. So, did 170 people sign up or show up? Was there another signup lilst somewhere else?
Also, When did we start promoting that Drupalcamp?
Thanks!
@Jen: Thanks for offering to help! Are you on IRC? It might be helpful to discuss this in the #Drupal-NYC room at some point.
number depends on space limitations
I really think that how many people show up is completely dependent on the space available. If we do it at poly again, we'd have a 170 person limit like last time. But we could most likely have 300 people show up without much effort/outreach.
Last time, we asked people that did not think they were going to make it to remove themselves from the list the week before the event so we could work out who from the waiting list could attend, about 50-75 people removed themselves at that point, which is why we had a high percentage of those signed up actually attend.
The second day is always smaller, but that's not a bad thing.
Also as far as selecting a
Also as far as selecting a date, I feel like SXSW is the most important event to avoid conflicting with, and it happens March 13-22, which doesn't conflict with Polytech's availability. I generally think polls are a good idea but it would be good to keep in mind for this event that we'd like to get new people attending and involved with Drupal and those people aren't likely to be voting on this poll.
Attendance Fee
I think it makes sense to add a small attendance fee, such as $10 or $20 for this Camp. Drupalcamp Colorado 2008 charged $10 and 80% of people who signed up actually showed up. When we give out a free lunch (literally) we might get folks who aren't genuinely interested in Drupal
Adding a small fee keeps the event accessible, helps cover our costs and makes it more likely that people who sign up actually attend. For many, it also adds to the impression that the event will be valuable and worth attending. A $10, $15 or $20 fee seems extremely reasonable, especially for NYC. What do folks think?
/me agrees
I totally agree on a fee for attendance and also would like to suggest incentives like sponsor provided material for users that attend the group meetings. Example would be a free Drupal related ebook or free t-shirts etc. Any kind of material would be something that would give users the push to attend who would normally not make it since there were no incentives other than knowledge. On a final note I believe that knowledge & social interaction with fellow drupal users new and old is the biggest incentive to any group meetup; that and going out for drinks after everything is done :)
Best avoided
In the past we've managed without an attendance fee, and I've never seen anyone there just for a free lunch! I don't see a problem with letting people make a donation when they're there if they want to, but one of the great things about Drupal is that it's open source and has the community support. Charging a fee to come to a camp, never mind how small, detracts from that.
Does it really matter if we don't get 80 or 90% attendance? We can just factor in a typical dropout rate in planning.
Once we've finalized a location we'll have a clearer idea of what money we need to raise.
extra organizational labor
I like that we've been able to keep the events free, but I do see your point. We're likely to get fewer impulse registrations that are not real.
But, the added organizational labor and complexity of having to track payment, make sure only those that paid come to the event, etc seems to be more effort than it's worth.
I agree
I personally am fine with a small fee ($10 or $20). There's costs associated with putting on an event on like this and I think it's reasonable to ask folks to help cover the cost - especially since everyone gets so much benefit from getting together and learning. I also like the idea of offering something extra in exchange for the contribution, like an ebook or t-shirt.
That said, I see the flip side of it too. For students, a fee might be prohibitive. And I see the philosophical argument for trying to keep the exchange of knowledge free, but other events like DrupalCon charge a fee so there's precedent there.
Maybe the right solution is charging fee (or calling it a recommended donation) for those that can pay and have free admission for students. Those who have a different philosophical point of view can opt out if they chose. But if we do offer something of benefit to paying attendees (like an ebook or something) there would be extra incentive to just pay the $10 or $20.
Drupal Cons and Drupal Camps are very different
I don't think that it's good to say that since X happens at DrupalCon it's ok for DrupalCamp. But that being said, many DrupalCamps in other cities have charged a nominal fee to help offset costs.
If we were to charge a fee, it would make the stress of finding sponsors easier. I also think that t-shirts, while nice to have, are really useless and not worth the expense or effort.
Especially considering we're looking to do this next month, tshirts, ebooks, figuring out how to handle making sure people pay/sign in, etc seems unnecessary. If there's extra money after we find sponsors beyond the costs for space and food, and someone wants to take on the grief of handling ordering tshirts, I would not object.
Speaking as the person that ended up doing most of the work on the past two camps (and has been peripherally involved in the organizational side of almost every NYC Drupal Camp to date) , I like the model we've been working under so far. Easy to organize and coordinate.
But, it seems we're getting ahead of ourselves here. Let's pick a space (my vote at this point is NYU-Poly, which at this point is our only choice), then setup registration, then see how many people sign up in the first week, then use that as a guide for what to do.
I am in favor of having a
I am in favor of having a small attendance fee. it is often impossible to tell how many people are most likely to attend and having organized many nyc meetups i know that attendees estimation is a very important detail to have. Everything deppends on knowing how many people will attend: How much to order for breakfast/lunch, sponsor(s) outreach, space reservation, better understanding of whom will attend each session so presenter can better prepare for his/her audience, etc etc...
I will volunteer myself to offset the extra responsibilities involved with tracking registrant payments and attendees. Having a better estimate for number of attendees is just too important, IMHO.
in the past
we've been able to make rather accurate estimates based on the sign up list and the assumption of 80% or so attendance.
I appreciate that you have not only advocated for charging a fee but have also explicitly stepped up and volunteered to handle the extra effort/burden created by that suggestion. (even if I disagree with your position, I can feel ok about the outcome of this debate going either way since I can be sure it's not just going to become more work for me).
No on fees
Charging a fee is REALLY against the -camp ethic. I know $10 or $20 may not seem like a big deal, but part of the utility of these camps is to expose curious people to drupal, and the difference bw "fee" and "no-fee" is much bigger to that set.
An accurate head-count would be nice, but every other barcamp and drupalcamp and rootscamp (etc etc) has gotten by without one.
Why is this so much about
Why is this so much about -camp ethic? Not every camp is free. Drupalcamp Toronto isn't free, Drupalcamp LA isn't free. I'm sure there are plenty of others that aren't free. It takes money to put these things on. And while it may be the root of all evil, it's something that you just kind of have to accept and go with. You can't always depend on the generosity of people to donate money to pay for the costs associated with these events, especially in this economy. While I do appreciate the grass roots effort that drupalcamp nyc tends to be, its a tight squeeze every single time. Charging a nominal fee alleviates most of the financial burden and allows us do some of the fun stuff like giving away swag like tee shirts and stickers and buttons. Are things like that necessary? Absolutely not. But someone taking home a cool tee shirt makes people feel special, and that they've gotten something special for their money. Hell, there's a BoF session at Drupalcon that's dedicated to trading drupal swag.
In my opinion, there's a lot that we can do with a better budget, and the benefits far outweigh the nominal costs of charging a few dollars at the door.
Mike
DrupalCamp grew out of BarCamp
If I understand how the first DrupalCampNYC came together, it was something that came out of discussions among Drupal folks who attended BarCamp. That is why the BarCamp wiki was used to handle registration for most of the camps, and it is also why this is so much about the "-camp ethic".This is a camp, its not a con or even necessarily a meetup.
Each of those types of events have different styles, organizational structures and cost structures. These differences came out of the various underlying ethos of each event. A DrupalCon is a software convention in a more standard, more corporate model. DrupalCampNYC came out of BarCamps and have followed their model of "an ad-hoc gathering born from the desire for people to share and learn in an open environment. It is an intense event with discussions, demos and interaction from participants." I'm not championing one type of event over another, but since we are planning a Camp, and not a Con I think its important to stick to the core principals of what a BarCamp style event is.
I am not against swag, we had stickers at the last camp, and we had tees a few camps ago, but you only got one if you wanted one - they were $10 if I recall correctly.
I see the appeal on the front end of asking for money as a registration fee. But it adds a ton of logistics that we have to figure out now if we hope to pull this off in about a month.
I'm sure I could come up with a few more if I thought about it. I'm skeptical that this won't turn into an organizational mess, given the complexity that comes with adding handling money in any situation, and the short time frame we're looking at.
I'm 100% pro a chipin or a donation bucket on-site as a way to get money from individuals who want to support the camp. I would also like to see the continued fiscal support from organizations in the community. I would rather see the event be free, and you pay $10 for a T-shirt if you want one.
Here's the problem with this
Here's the problem with this argument. We're putting on a Drupalcamp, not a barcamp. While the barcamp people do great work, we're not beholden to them for anything. The manner in which a drupalcamp is put together should be written in pencil. If there's a need for a change, change it. What's the harm in trying something new?
But I ask you, what's the difference between buying 100 tee shirts and giving one to everyone with their $10 registration, or buying 100 and just selling them at $10 each? The difference is that if you get 100 tee shirts and give them out with registration, then you're going to go through most of those 100 tee shirts that you buy, while not everyone is going to be willing to shell out $10 for a tee shirt once they're already there. And at this point, now someone's put out the cash for those tee shirts, and has a half full box of tee shirts to show for it. I can guarantee that people would be more willing to pay a $10 registration if they're getting a free shirt, vs. getting free registration, and buying a tee shirt for $10. It's the difference between giving someone something for free then asking them to pay for it, versus giving someone an added value for what they're already paying for. With the latter method, there's more guaranteed capital that we can use to put on drupalcamp than guessing how many people would be willing to buy tee shirts.
useless semantic debate
One could say that we are indeed putting on a Barcamp, un-conference event with a focus on drupal.
Knowing one's history and staying true to the ethics that put these events in motion is important to some of us.
You know, I really don't
You know, I really don't appreciate your insinuation that I'm unethical, and/or don't know my history. I've been with the NYC Drupal Group as long as you have, Eric. And all I've said was "maybe we should try something different for a change." Hell, I didn't even say it. I just agreed with a sentiment that was already being discussed. And you find the need to, on more than one occasion, make backhanded and PERSONAL attacks on me. You've even recently made backhanded comments about me when I wasn't even part of the discussion. And that is NOT cool man.
You and I see the world very differently. And that's fine. I've come to terms with that. But to attack me personally because of how I see things, and tell me that I'm unethical? That's low man. That's real low.
Everybody cool it
I read "staying true to the ethic" to be using the word "ethic" in terms of a credo or stated set of principals (like "work-ethic"). It's not a value judgment. Nobody's calling anybody anything. Nobody's starting shit.
If you guys have a problem, by all means work it out—off-list—but there's plenty to be done here, and we'll do well to keep the debate level and give each other the benefit of the doubt.
seriously I meant no insult
you asked a question, I really was just trying to give a simple answer. I never implied anything about your ethics, I was referring simply to those you were questioning in your post. You asked "Why is this so much about -camp ethic?" I was simply answering. It was not in any way intended as an insult.
I can guarantee that people
That's an awful lot of "guaranteeing". ;-) You're assuming that everyone's like you, and want what you want. And some people are, and some people do. But other people aren't and other people don't, and incurring additional financial, historical, and opportunity costs for the sake of swag seems like a poor investment. If you want to sell t-shirts, by all means do so. I hope you're successful, turn a profit for yrself, and maybe even donate a bit back to the community. But by adding a potentially unwanted t-shirt—and more significantly, a cost to the event—we're jeopardizing turnout among the one of the most important cohorts at these types of events: drupal-curious folks who could get turned on to drupal at a camp like this and be writing the modules that you rely on in a year.
The future of this community lies in people, not swag.
other points aside, where do
other points aside, where do you get your tees? 10$ per ? nearly twice as cheap as what i've seen. please share your sources.
Twice as cheap
I'm not sure where he is getting his t-shirts from, but Vista Print is selling them for $5 a t-shirt right now. Never used them and can't vouch for their quality (they probably catch on fire easily), but since you asked...
http://www.vistaprint.com/vp/T-Shirts/TopDeals.aspx?GP=1%2f23%2f2009+10%...
-Daniel
Trying new things is fine
I was never arguing that we are beholden to the our history with BarCamp. I think the decision to move registration to a drupal.org domain/ infrastructure proves that. My point is that the unconference style is what has made the event so successful in the past. The core ideas of the unconference that have been very central to the style of past DrupalCampNYCs appeals to me in ways that the meet ups don't, and DrupalCon doesn't, and I can only assume that there are other people more casually interested in Drupal who feel the same.
The harm in trying something new is adding an unknown amount of organizational complexity. Its not that I'm against spreading the cost of putting an event like this on, but this entire thread is starting to validate my point that registration fees will add layers of complexity that have been absent in the past, and that we don't have the time to deal with them properly. This is a volunteer run event, registration fees means the need to find and organize more volunteers than were needed in the past.
There are still questions that have nothing to do with our BarCamp ethos, and everything to do with the logistical issues of collecting money. I put a few in my last post, I haven't seen them addressed substantially yet.
I am happy discuss the merits of different (un)conference styles or what other Drupal Camps do, but if we are introducing the idea of registration fees, the logistics need to be nailed down before we announce the event, and its already turning into a pain in the ass, and I don't envision it getting easier.
Attendance Fee Thought
I think the free option is important for people who are coming to Drupal Camp just to see what it is.
That said, what about doing it the way some Museums do it. Make a "suggested donation", web based or bring to event, of $10 per person or so. But no one would check to see who does and doesn't do the suggested donation. And leftover funds go to future events.
No muss, no fuss, but I'm guessing a large percentage of folks will go ahead and do it.
My 2 cents, but I don't have that strong an opinion and will happily pay the fee if that is the prevailing opinion.
Good idea
This seems like a good way to test the waters for whether/how much people will pay to support Drupal Camp. It would help subsidize it (or future events) but not preclude anyone from attending based on cost.
Jean Gazis
www.jeangazis.com
www.webhostny.com
When we're talking about a
When we're talking about a difference of 80, 170 or 350 people, a 50-80% difference in attendees vs signups seems significant to me.
yes only having a certain..
yes only having a certain percentage of users that actually show up versus those that signed up is bad, but do you really think that charging a fee would help?
Maybe we should focus on incentives instead of an attendance fee, charging a fee might seems to commercialize to new comers or an insult to veterans or people are in the opensource scene, i.e Linux User Groups usually are free to attend except those sponsor by corporations. As others have put it, Drupal is Free Software & Opensource; yes Drupalcon charges a fee and maybe they can get away with that because their attendance numbers are really high or because they been at it for a while and have gained a large following. Whatever the reasons my suggestion is to find actual sponsors that will provide free promotional material for group users that attend the meetups instead of charging a fee to get in or maybe instead of charging, ask for donations but also provide some kind of material that people can take home with them instead of just memories of the event. Now I must sleep my mind shouldn't be up pass 36hours.
fixing something that is not broken
I feel that the issue of percentages and such has never caused us any problem in the past and we're debating a fix to a problem that does not exist.
I think the point of the...
I think the point of the discussion at hand is to figure out a way to improve the actual user turn-out by either charging a fee or providing added incentives (ebooks,t-shirts,coffee mug etc..) to users that actually attend, I would go with the latter.
yes, I understand
I understand that is the point and that is exactly what I am saying. From my experience helping organize the past drupal camps, there is no issue with needing to improve either registration or user turnout.
from a marketing point
from a marketing point I think that if previous turnouts were less than half is low and it's something that should be improved. If 100 people sign up there should be atleast a 75% turnout not a 50% turnout like it's been averaging. Don't get me wrong, I think any turnout is good but there is room for improvement and that's what litwol, ezra-g, myself and probably others would like to would like, nothing more..
previous turnout
previous turnout has been between 75% and 90%.
I'm not sure where the 50% figure is coming from, but it is not accurate
If we're worried about
If we're worried about quality of RSVPs (though it sounds like maybe we're not) but we also want to have a "free" event we could do what Seth Godin does for non-profit attendees of his seminars, and charge a nominal registration fee which is only refundable upon attendance. Would theoretically cut down on people squatting on an available space they're not likely to actually use... but not volunteering so FWIW.
I've never heard of such
I've never heard of such method but its as close as it gets to love from first sight :-D I would be interested in trying this out if the traditional method doesn't go through.
deposit/refund: great idea
If people are willing to take on the overhead of tracking and refunding, this sounds like a great way to 1) keep the RSVP list honest, 2) get a little subsidy from the no-shows, and 3) associate "drupal" with "ppl handing me cash".
actually i am very surprised
actually i am very surprised by the 75-90% figure. I would love to see some documentation if we have any. It would definitely lift my spirits, especially since I'm the biggest skeptic about the turn out rates.
Inventing a problem
Why?
It's one thing to say "there aren't enough people at Drupal Camps to make them worthwhile". Its another to say "we've consistently been burned when estimating space-needs because of faithless RSVPing". But neither of those issues have been problems historically, and I've yet to hear why the benefits of charging admission (t-shirts) outweigh the benefits of keeping Drupalcamp free (lower barrier to entry for drupal-curious folks, keeping D-camp true to its free-and-open roots, etc).
While the turnout has been
While the turnout numbers have been good for the past couple of drupalcamps, it could use some improvement from a percentage standpoint. Also, I don't see why it's an issue to want to give the attendees some added value for coming to Drupal camp. Having something tangible to come home with helps people remember the event. Additionally, it's free advertising once the event is over. If I come in to work with a Drupal tee shirt that no one's seen before, people are going to ask me about it, and I'd be inclined to tell them about Drupalcamp, the NYC group, and the awesome time I had that weekend. Without some kind of takeaway, the event kind of falls flat once they leave. To be honest with you, over the past three years, I've attended a bunch of Drupalcamps in NY, Toronto, and other places as well, and the ones I remember most are the ones where I've gotten something to bring home with me. And it doesn't necessarily matter what it is, but something tangible and "neat" that helps to solidify the event in the person's mind. There's a reason why they give away swag at trade shows. Because having something to bring home, solidifies the product in the person's mind. And I know you're going to jump all over me for even thinking about using any marketing concepts, but marketers don't use these techniques for fun. They use them because they work.
Mike
Nothing wrong with a little marketing..
Nothing wrong with a little marketing, it's what helps spread the word on a product or service and that's what I've been talking about. Charging to get into an event for an opensource web application sounds to corporate to me. Going to a free event for an opensource web application & meeting cool people, learning new new development tips and tricks and then leaving that event with something free to remember it like a t-shirt, a business card, a cool pen with logo or any other tangible item will not only leave a lasting impression on you but will also self promote that event when others take notice of the stuff you brought home with you. That's how word of mouth would spread as someone will ask about that cool tangible item you got. The idea about charging a fee then refunding it to users that actually make it seems ok, but what about those users that don't make it? do they loose out? what if they are really late for the event or had a really good reason for not making it to the event. I really should get some sleep but this discussions just keeps me up.
What it basically comes down
What it basically comes down to is this. The way the last few drupalcamps have been put together, we've barely scraped by with just enough money to put on the event from sponsorships. This isn't something you can guarantee year after year. We didn't have tee shirts for the last few events, because we simply couldn't afford them. It costs about $1000 for shirts for the event, give or take. Where is that money going to come from? Free event plus free tee shirts isn't going to work, unless you can find someone who's willing to donate that money. Do you have it to spend? I don't.
So it breaks down like this, the way I see it. Let's say shirts come to $8 each. If we charge $10 at the door, and they get a "free" tee shirt with their registration, they're paying for their shirt, and $2 goes into the general pot that can go for ordering pizzas for lunch, or bagels for breakfast. And I really have to disagree that this is "too corporate." It takes money to put these things on, I think it's much less corporate to charge at the door than to rely on corporate sponsorship for donations. And I can say this, because my company was a corporate sponsor for the last drupalcamp.
And if you really don't like the phrase "charging" or "entrance fee" we can play the semantics game and call it a "suggested donation." How's that sound?
have to agree
Sponsors but since you feel that we can't get enough sponsors the users will have to pay those fees.
I would if I had a product that drupal users would benifit from like drupal hosting services, but that's another story since I am still working on my control panel
Charging at the door is still corporate like since you're conducting business unless it's for non-profit, not charging is being free and whatever is pass the door won't matter much, even if it's lots of corporate advertising and such.
Suggested donation, Event donations, Group donations, or "we need money to pay for your food" would sound good, but your first suggestion is good :)
@Eric outreach sounds a lot better than marketing specially for this.
I think if there is a "suggested donation" for future events most users will not mind but some will, so figuring out which users will mind paying, could be figured out in a "poll" asking,.. "Would you pay to attend future events?"
sponsorship is a less coroprate centric model
I have to disagree with this.
Getting individuals and corporations to voluntarily put up money to fund the event is providing a way for those that make money with drupal to give back to the community.
Asking those that have never touched drupal to pay for the event with a fee is a corporate model -- asking for money before knowledge is exchanged.
At the NYC camps we have had an explicit policy -- Sponsorship gives you a letter-sized printout with your logo in the primary room and sometimes in other rooms as well. You get thanked at the start of the event. that's it. Sponsors do not get any special treatment; sponsors don't get any guarantee of putting on a session, they are treated like every other participant.
That is a community-centric model which in my opinion is far less corporate than charging those that attend. But as has been pointed out, if necessary, asking for a small fee can go a long way towards keeping the event from becoming a trade-show, job fair or otherwise turn the model around and many other Camps have taken this path when it has been necessary.
We don't talk to sponsors about the value the camp gives to them, we don't sell marketing opportunities masqueraded as sponsorship. It is clear that sponsors are putting up their money out of an obligation they have to the larger community. This is an important distinction between Conference and UnConference/camp.
If the choice was between becoming more corporate in what we offer sponsors or charging a nominal fee at the door, I'd be in favor of charging a fee. However I don't see where anyone has made the argument that this is really necessary.
From the perspective of event planning, NYC Drupal Camps are amazingly inexpensive to pull off. If we need to we could also do a one day event instead of two (which would cut costs by about 60% since sundays have a more expensive base cost at NYU Poly and many other spaces we might use).
outreach, not marketing.
I think that the words we use are critical to how we perceive ourselves as a community, and how the larger community and world view us.
In that light, I would like to make a friendly objection to the use of the term marketing.
Marketing is what you do for a product or commodity, this is a community-centric event for knowledge and skill sharing. Could we say outreach or publicity instead of marketing? I know this might sound petty but I think it is an important distinction.
The distinction can be important
I would agree that the distinction can be important. "Open Source" basically equals "grassroots". "Outreach" or "publicity" fit better into that mold than the term "marketing."
Let's just make it happen!
I think everyone can agree that this event needs to happen. There's a pretty short timeframe to do this - just over a month if we're aiming for the end of February - so this limits what we could do in terms of getting T-shirts designed and the correct number printed.
It seems like we as a group should focus our energy on the really important stuff:
The outreach can't really start until we have a venue and are sure that the event can happen, so shall we as a community focus on this and perhaps put the debate about t-shirts and whether or not to ask for donations/signup fees/etc. on the back burner for now?
i think we should /not/ rush
i think we should /not/ rush this. if we want a quick event then we can do a meetup, in fact there's huge meetup happening this month.
Lets put the time line decision back a little and first figure out whom are the people that are available to help making this event happen. based on number of volunteers we can figure out how much we can do without burning out the volunteers. after that we figure out our camp agenda and after that we figure out the realistic time line which will tell us when the event will happen.
Please lets not rush this just because of some arbitrary date was set, quality comes first.
I willing to help out
I'm more than willing to help out. Let me know what you want me to do. Like many of you, I'm just excited to see this event happen.
A suggestion for place and time
Now that we've had a lot of interesting debate and discussion, I'd like to divert the discussion to actual time and place.
My suggestion is this: We hold DrupalCamp NYC 6 as a one day, not a two day event. We go from 10am until 8 or 9pm instead of only until 5pm. We do this at NYU Poly (limit 170 attendees) on February 28, 2009.
This would mean that our costs for the event would be roughly $400 in fees for the space (mainly for custodial services), $150-200 for breakfast; $300-400 for lunch, basically $1,000 could cover the entire event.
I suggest we spend the next two weeks seeing how fast registration fills up, then make a decision on where to focus some outreach efforts to ensure a diverse crowd and skilled presenters. I'm sure we'll find people willing to put up the small amount of money needed with little to no effort.
(even though I'm not a fan of the idea) I also suggest that we put a chipin widget on the page for the event to allow attendees to voluntarily and anonymously donate a few $ towards the event.
let the debate begin!
Cost difference
What is the cost difference in having a one day event versus a two day event? Just curious.
last time...
last camp, it cost about $950 for the first day and $750 the second, but we really did not have enough food for lunch the second day, as we had to put up close to 400 for the use of the space. I don't have my notes here, but I think the custodial fees were $200 the first day and $375 the second.
So, depending on how it's done, the cost difference is anywhere between 40% to 60% more for a two day event, and I think the second day is always of less use and quality (not to mention half the crowd is hungover)
one-day Drupalcamp is worth a try`
I'm sold. In practice, one-day may end up being too limiting, but there's certainly a good argument for giving it a try.
I am highly against a rush
I am highly against a rush job. It is hard enough to organize a meetup in 1 month. Also the idea of scaling back our camps after we've made so much effort to make them bigger and better does not sit well with me.
I recommend we first find out whom may be of help organizing the camp, what the agenda of the camp will be and the sessions and then figure out the date by which all of our plans/desires will be ready.
let's do both
I think we have plenty of time to do this on the scale I've outlined. DrupalCamp is really not a hard event to organize, especially compared to some of the events I've been involved with.
Let's do this one in late feb, and start now planning for one in August or September. We need to give more time for research into larger spaces, etc.
To respond to the points you raise: I see doing a one day event not necessarily as scaling back, but as an experiment with what could be a better model. The second day is the largest burden in many ways, and is always lightly attended. Especially considering that custodial fees on sundays are higher, it seems like poor planning. We could always find a less formal space for the folks that might want to do code sprints on sunday, if there is interest.
I think that a long one day event could be more successful than two shorter one day sessions. We spend the day sharing knowledge and then everyone can go out for dinner or drinks and not worry about getting to camp again the next morning.
I'd be willing to bet that once announced, we'll see the list fill up fast. There are a lot of people, organizations, etc that would be interested. Also, doing this close to and right before DrupalCon might mean that we might be able to get some really good presenters/participants that otherwise might not be in the area or country normally.
Agendas for camps are never set ahead of the camp itself and really should not be discussed until we have a day. This is so that people that might be interested in presenting a session can figure out if they will be able to attend.
I think there is enough time to organize a successful event (based on past camps) and don't see where that could be considered a bad thing compared to the camps we've done so far.
I also see the logic of really spending time to organize, get a better/larger space, secure funding from sponsors, do a more formal job of putting it together. So, let's do both.
How's that sound?
I like both :)
I like both :)
how soon would you feel comfortable with?
I forgot two important questions in my last comment: How long would you consider enough time? When would the soonest be that you would not object to?
I do believe that there is the interest to make it worth while and enough time to pull it together, I also think we have enough people to help make it happen, and we know we have a usable space available. But, I'd rather put it off a month than have it be a point of conflict.
4 to 6 months imho. However,
4 to 6 months imho. However, I will not object helping regardless of the final time frame.
Two Drupalcamps, Signup Lists
I have to step away from my computer for the week, so I regret that I can't aggressively follow up on the New School or the Drupalcamp thread for a little while, but briefly:
I think we could have both an un-conference and another potentially more structured conference at separate dates. As much as possible, I'd like to see us schedule the DrupalCamps in between and not around the time of the Cons, so as not to compete. It seems likely that between myself and Jen (jenmhill) we could pull off getting good space at the New School at no cost, so I'd like to keep this in mind as an option for late spring/early summer.
On the topic of paid registrations, if we can enforce a waiting list and a free signup list, I don't see why we can't enforce a paid signup list. For the task of enforcing a list of attendees, how someone got on the list seems irrelevant. Am I wrong?
Those in the Hudson Valley group may be interested as well.
Could you add the audience of this post to Hudson Valley group as well? NYC is a quick train / car ride for most of us, and I'd certainly be willing to help out in any way. Cheers
Frank Carey
TwelveGrove Drupal Development
http://www.twelvegrove.com
I hate crossposting
I find it annoying when I start getting emails from g.d.o. for an event in a different region that has been crossposted to groups I'm in.
I'd ask that you post a discussion in the group you are in and link it to the post here. This way only those interested get messages about it.
I think we'll also be using a separate mailing list for those interested in volunteering so we keep the unnecessary noise off the site. See the drupalcamp5 pages for info on how to subscribe to that list, or wait until one of us gets around to posting more content here later today or tomorrow.
That's true
I didn't think about Subscriptions, etc. I'll make a separate post as you mentioned
Frank Carey
TwelveGrove Drupal Development
http://www.twelvegrove.com
Suggestion with an NYC drupalcamp component
I'm interested in being a part of new-to-drupal team that would meet regularly and identify and work on a team project as a way to make learning drupal more efficient and more pleasurable.
Best case would be a situation where NYC experienced Drupal group members would be willing to act as team-mentors - no expectation of regular in-person meeting, but a resource.
Team size -> Not more than 4 people (Assumption that because these would be ongoing projects people will roll-in/roll-out)
Project -> A resource that would be useful for some not-for-profit organization. Project would be developed entirely autonomously.
Ancillary benefit -> Teams may develop tools that would facilitate team formation , mentor-team communication and a useful team experience archive.
I'd like to think that it would be possible to publicize this in advance of NYC Drupalcamp and that if a team or teams formed before NYC Drupalcamp that some time could be set aside for teams to identify potential mentors.
General feedback and feedback on how to publicize to new-to-drupal people would be greatly appreciated.
I like the idea!
I'd be interested in this.
Jean Gazis
www.jeangazis.com
www.webhostny.com
Great suggestion!
I am brand new to drupal and hence a little nervous about the upcoming camp, so I would absolutely love to be involved in such a project and gain some actual, substantive practice!
Update: Suggestion with an NYC drupalcamp component
I put up a first-draft bulletin board which may give additional insight into some of the thought I had re the Thursday Feb 12 post quoted in full below.
There's been some interest and I'd like to meet any day this week to see if we can get one or more small groups formed in advance of NYC Drupalcamp. Feedback from the original post has been favorable - thanks to all.
===========Posted Thursday February 12, 2008=============
I'm interested in being a part of new-to-drupal team that would meet regularly and identify and work on a team project as a way to make learning drupal more efficient and more pleasurable.
Best case would be a situation where NYC experienced Drupal group members would be willing to act as team-mentors - no expectation of regular in-person meeting, but a resource.
Team size -> Not more than 4 people (Assumption that because these would be ongoing projects people will roll-in/roll-out)
Project -> A resource that would be useful for some not-for-profit organization. Project would be developed entirely autonomously.
Ancillary benefit -> Teams may develop tools that would facilitate team formation , mentor-team communication and a useful team experience archive.
I'd like to think that it would be possible to publicize this in advance of NYC Drupalcamp and that if a team or teams formed before NYC Drupalcamp that some time could be set aside for teams to identify potential mentors.
General feedback and feedback on how to publicize to new-to-drupal people would be greatly appreciated.
==================End quoted post==================
Great Idea~!
I love the idea , though I am not an experienced Drupal dev person, I laud the idea and will support in whatever way that I can. Thanks for the thoughts.,
~
AshokanKid
Lower Hudson Vally, New York
Drupal Newbie Seeks Basic Help!
Hi! We went to Drupal Camp 6 in New York and just learned how to use Drupal! However, we are now trying to open the page we created, but WampServer is not taking us back to the page where you can create content. We know this is a really simple question, but how do we open the page that we created at camp? Thanks for any help you can give!