KE9QQ2: Proposed Drupal Modules for “The Next Generation of Wikipedia” (CommuniDB)

[answering KDY6M6]     Hi DrupalPal,

thank you very much for you work. I think it will take some time to really leverage the information of this document.

My Drupal nick is "hailstorm". I'm a Drupal developer in Germany and write about Drupal for a german mag called "t3n". Right now I'm evaluating Drupal as a possible intranet solution for our Drupal workshop. For me a wiki is a very valuable tool an therefore a must have for our solution. I read the articles you mentioned a couple of months ago and made some prototypes. The results were quite nice, but I had to shift my intention to some bigger Drupal projects and lost focus. Now these projects are almost finished I'm back on track evaluating the STORM module, rockclimbr, XMPP module and all the other solutions available for D6.

I found this through my Feed Reader which has a dynamic folder for wiki related information. It found the Los Angeles group post for me. :-)

Information Architecture is a very important fact that many projects I was assigned to neglected altogether. So I try to made it relevant.

Best regards, Mike

PS: You should have another look at Typo3 by the end of this year. The Typo3 team is rewriting Typo3 from scratch. The new system will be an application of the so called "flow3" framework that looks very promissing. Reading the feature list it's a killer! It will be interesting how it will compete against D7.

[answering KDY6M6]   Thanks for taking time to reply.

I'm actually pretty new to Drupal.  I stumbled on it when I was looking for a content management system for a site that I've been put in charge of here at work.  I've been very happy with it so far.

As far as what I'd like to do with a wiki, I'm working on building a setting (essentially an entire fictional world) for some writing I'm doing, and a wiki is in my opinion an ideal way of storing information about it.  Up until this point I've been using MediaWiki, which is fine for what it is, but I'd also like my website to act as more of a portal.  MediaWiki is great as a wiki, but fails miserably as a blog and a discussion forum.  Addidionally, Drupal has some built in ways of organizing things (book outlines, for instance) that I think would be beneficial for my purposes.

I'm not looking to duplicate all of MediaWiki's functionality, so much as just a few key wiki features:
* Wiki-like article links
* Change history
* Ease of uploading images and embedding them them into pages

I actually played around briefly with a few modules that were supposed to emulate MediaWiki's functionality, and found them to be somewhat lacking in various ways; it occurred to me, however, that it's not important that Drupal emulate MediaWiki exactly.  I just need a wiki that does the things that I want it to do.

Sorry if I'm rambling. :)

Peace, Bart       [also a later similar later msg]

Thanks for your feedback! I worked hard on your concerns:

1. ^KEAN6K:  Actually, the document is already here in Wiki group, right under your fingertips: just 1 click to access it (and access the source -- live)!
   1. ^KEARPC:  --all one needs to do is complete these quick steps to get access (and with good reason);
   2. ^KEASGH:  A number of folks have already completed these steps,
   3. ^KEATUI:  and at least 5 now have accessed the doc with no reported problem.
   4. ^KEASFG:  Moreover these steps only need to be done once,
   5. ^KEASFQ:  indeed once for this and any number of such live Google Docs which Drupal.Org users share.
   6. ^KEAUAH:  But would other Drupal.Org users-really share docs on Google Docs? 
      --Would this really happen?  It's happening now...
      1. ^KEASG0:  Did you know the work on Drupal's new core database structure (the "fields-in-core") is being developed & coordinated via this Google Spreadsheet?
      2. ^KEAUEL:  Seen The Drupal Field API specification is being done in this Google "Word" Doc?
      3. ^KEATTY:  Heard of "Acquia, Inc documents and spreadsheets program, powered by Google."?
2. ^KE9ZSK:  Yes I know it's not what some others may have initially imagined
   1. ^KEB2MS:  --maybe if someone is used to exporting (say to PDF) and attachments (but see the nightmares of that)
   2. ^KEB2N5:  --and maybe especially if one is a very seasoned Drupaler used to posting everything just in Drupal
   3. ^KEB2ND:  --and definitely for anyone who hasn't really tried online office suites (Office 2.0), the growing new trend which may end up putting leading MS Office desktop software out-of-business).
3. ^KEAU3J:  Just give it a try!   --if you really go thru it, you'll probably instantly see.
4. ^KEAUJ3:  What might you see?  What benefits??  It's
   1. ^KE9FRO:  Now easier! Since your constructive comment, the entire introduction is heavily rewritten to make it a snap for folks -- all one needs to do is step thru it! And there's even a status column in the requestors table to let folks know what they have left (plus who's already done!).
   2. ^KE9FT6:  And totally transparent, as was naturally my goal from the start!
      • In my first version I made a big mistake: I asked people to request the Google Spreadsheet and just assumed they would also be posting their comments here (as they always do), and that they would already have profiles telling at least their basics --big mistake! Instead most folks just requested the document, and their profiles were missing all sorts of stuff, or even empty - I couldn't even tell who they were.
      • So now I've completely rewritten these instructions, so
        • the profiles are complete: see real examples,  
        • and participants ARE posting here all communications which could be productively shared: see the real examples,
        • and now the request for the document is very last
        • Moreover, for all the earlier folks who emailed me directly (in reply that earlier version), I posted their stuff in the intro.

        So for maximal transparency, hopefully now there will be NO 1-to-1 communications of anything sharable, as now it's clear for folks to post their feedback

        • in the shared document which everyone who is participating can see,
        • or else here on this node just as you did -- thank you!
   3. ^KE9FVA:  And there are actually good reasons for the above easy standards, as insuring proper credit & protection of someone's work where it is due plus, with these easy standards, enhancing the Drupal community a tad with better profiles and folks sharing constructive feedback to the group! -- see in the intro Why I ask this.  Indeed, having additional sharing options as this could promote more sharing & collaboration within Drupal Groups -- as many people, like myself, may be willing to share stuff, but not just to anyone they don't know.
   4. ^KE9FTK:  And speaking of being easy... 
      there's another HUGE motivation to do these easy steps (but something which might not be obvious to those who haven't, or haven't recently, tried office documents online (aka, the new "online office suites ("Office 2.0"))):
      Once you've completed these easy steps, 
      the document (plus your own complex documents that want to share) are just 1-click away!
      1. ^KEA3KD:  No software! No need to have everyone have or install some software to get to the doc
         (note even an attached document (say .pdf or .xls) would still require Acrobat Reader or Excel, etc)
      2. ^KEA3L0:  No downloads! Indeed, no need to have everyone download and save some file (nor upload it again if they've edited it)
         (instead just click & open it right in your web browser, then edit it right there -- indeed it's even auto-saved)
      3. ^KEA3L8:  Super-complex docs! --and even for a complex document type as a spreadsheet!
         (--complexity (such as computed cells and huge tables which scroll vertically & horizontally but always keep the row & column headings visible) which completely impractical to do by hand in an HTML page)
      4. ^KEA3LV:  And even with edit access right in your browser!  And a multi-user version history!
      5. ^KEA3MC:  Plus of course dramatically better security
         (in marked-contrast to your usual public web page which gives you 0 protection)

      And once you've familiarized yourself with this simple process, you can

      6. ^KEA4LP:  plus you view (and edit!) the live source document,
         In marked contrast to the old method of an attached or downloaded file, which then forces you to view (and edit):
         1. ^KEA4MN:  some copy of the original (which would quickly go out of date with the rapid editing (as this document is going thru), plus your own edits would be hard to share & version) -- see links-not-copies,
         2. ^KEA4ST:  and not even a full copy if it's some degenerate export of the original which easily has all sorts of info & formatting lost (as a PDF (was suggested)  or HTML (was also suggested)):
            1. ^KEBOLJ:  most notably our doc here is a big spreadsheet, but PDF-export wouldn't even have "freeze panel" scrolling (so one would constantly be asking "What column is that in?" since the header row wouldn't be visible) to say nothing of the many/majority of cells which are sized down for readability so one has to click into the cell (when interested) to read the full content.

         ^KEB2AI:  With some copy (especially a degenerate export as PDF), people couldn't edit it; and even if they did somehow edit it, subsequently merging all those async edits on different versions (plus messaging them back and forth) would be a total nightmare --no way!

      7. ^KEA3MJ:  And then finally & most excitingly,once you've then become familiar with this process (and so logged into your Google Docs), you can
         also then instantly create and share your own complex documents with all these abilities! --just as I've done!
   5. ^KE9FVR:  And getting your own unique Google Account actually...
      1. ^KE9IN1:  It couldn't be easier!   Perhaps you haven't looked at Google Account creation recently, as you certainly don't need "a company that has Gmail for their domain", in fact you don't even need to touch Gmail!  Indeed 93% report no problem with using a Google Account. And if one doesn't  have one, it just takes a minute it get one --see that section which I added to the intro just because you mentioned this.
      2. ^KE9INE:  And here Google makes notable steps to really respect one's privacy. 
         1. ^KEA0WW:  Google requires nothing which is personally identifiable.
            1. ^KE9INW:  In fact, on singup, Google doesn't even ask you for your DOB, your name, nor even your postal/zip code.
            2. ^KEA14J:  Indeed the only things Google asks you for is the seeming absolute minimum:
               1. ^KEA1OB:  some password of course,
               2. ^KEA1OL:  plus just some good email address just for you (so you can be notified if people share stuff with you, or when they change the stuff you share with them, or of course if you forget your password)
               3. ^KEBIWH:  plus your country (I'm not sure why this is asked; maybe to observe legal Internet restrictions (such as in China).  But I doubt it's verified and, most importantly, it seems very minimal.)
            3. ^KEA155:  And ethat email address can even be a pseudonym (it does not have to identify you at all).
               1. ^KE9IOF:  Indeed if you want even more privacy (indeed the maximum), all you need to do is create a pseudonym email address for you only to be given to that Google Account (what I did) - it doesn't have to give a hint of who you are! Such an email can be created in minutes: as by adding an email address to a private domain (say one you own) or by using a disposable email address service (but where the email gets kept, and where it only goes to you).
         2.   ^KEA0P2:  And (from my tests) everything Google asks you for is changeable (even your signin username!) and
            1. ^KEA2OW:  including easily erasing all your prior entries & values.
         3. ^KEA0NU:  And you can have unlimited accounts.
         4. ^KEA1TF:  True, all this is in notable contrast to Google's questionable reputation of their Gmail product (in Gmail, not well or potentially not protecting their user's privacy).  But perhaps as a kind of address of this concern, Google Accounts seem to notably separate itself from Gmail, indeed seemingly so much that it is if Google were saying to perspective users, "You may (understandably) hate Gmail's privacy, but we don't want you to abandon all Google's apps because of that, so with Google Accounts we offer privacy which is totally different."
5. ^KE9IPI:  Indeed, if you at all create or use spreadsheets, once you get a taste of free online Google Spreadsheets and potentially other online spreadsheets, you'll probably wonder how you've lived so long with out it!

-Sincerely, DrupalPal :-)

How about something easier,faster,&MORE than PDF... Right Here!

^KEAV0S:  --perhaps you don't know of all the other Drupal.Org users already doing it.

1. ^KEA3Y1:  Sure Google Docs can export into all sorts of formats, including PDF, XLS, and 4 others,
   but then:
   1. ^KEA4E1:  you'd loose all the 7+ cool (indeed in many cases essential) and time-saving abilities of Google Docs
      (check them out -- I can't over-emphasize this; indeed your comment reminded me to also mention here yet another of these key abilities: having the live source (thanks!) -- take a look.
   2. ^KEA4TC:  And for what gain?
      1. ^KEA4TK:  So not to take 5 minutes 1 time 
         to make one's a Google account?  --when that's so easy & notably anonymous, plus,  amazingly powerful, and free! --That makes no sense.
      2. ^KEA4TS:  So one wouldn't have to "learn" a new system? 
         But this so easy that the truth is the only hard part is motivating a few folks who won't just give a it a try.  Hey,
         1. ^KEA4U4:  I've given the exact quick instructions.. 
         2. ^KEA4UJ:  And Google Spreadsheets operates almost identically to the MS Excel that everyone already knows.
      3. ^KEA4UR:  Or over some privacy concerns?  But that may be from Gmail. 
         In contrast, Google Accounts takes notable steps to protect one's privacy.
   3. ^KEA6LW:  As KEA4MN mentions, share links-not-copies:
      1. ^KEA6M7:  While yes, it seems easiest (to just export and/or attach a copy) if you're just thinking about giving someone some data this instant,
      2. ^KEA6MF:  But the moment you even stop & think "But how will they have the latest version?, And how will they'll add their edits?, or And how will you control access?", it becomes obvious as day that instead sharing a link to the original, not a copy of it, is the way to go (as does all "Office 2.0" docs and thus all online spreadsheets), and of course ideally versioned on a secure central server (as does this as a Google Docs Spreadsheet)
      3. ^KEAK83:  --that is, if it can work, and it has: at least 5 (and counting) have accessed the doc already with no reported problems.

   ^KEA4VA:  In short: once you try it almost certainly see: by exporting or even attaching: you gain nothing, only have less ability, spend more time, and have more trouble.

2. ^KEA4VI:  And, yes, I'd like to "know who accesses the document" and explained why.  Plus there's enhanced community and other reasons for these good standards, including for everyone what I just mentioned: all sorts usability pros.

^KEA4VT:  So instead of PDF --or also any other export format-- how about something easier, faster, much-more powerful... right here:  Give the easy access steps a try. :-)    -Sincerely, DrupalPal :-)