OK, so the previous thread is entirely too long. I am splitting out its issues into separate threads to better move the discussion forward.
Some people want a DrupalCampNYC site, some want just the existing groups.drupal.org page and the barcamp page as was done in the past successfully.
I would like to suggest a compromise. It has been suggested that the barcamp page funnel barcampers to the drupalcampNYC page. Lets reverse that. The people who want to can make a kickass drupal site, but registration is on the barcamp site.
You can then do whatever you want on the new site, and if attendees never make it there, it doesn't impact attendance. WE can assume drupallers who find the DrupalcampNYC site will be ok signing up on barcamp's site - they have been ok in the past.
The new site can act as a repository for audio/video/liveblogging, whatever but I stress we put NO ESSENTIAL FUNCTIONALITY FOR ATTENDANCE in it.
If this doesn't work for people lets discuss it, but let me be clear, any site that launches that isn't a consensus will splinter this community. Please, don't do that.
Thought, comments, links to your comments from before, discuss.
Comments
I've thought about that, and
I've thought about that, and it's not a bad thought. However, I can massage the data a bit more easily if the registration isn't in a wiki page. I can create mailing lists for updates using a stand alone site. I can do a lot more of the management side of the event if I use a stand alone Drupal site. It's one of the things that Drupal does so well.
Now I know someone's going to complain and say "but it's so much more work." Well don't worry about it. I'm already 99% done.
Yes, barcamp works, but I think that we can do better. I think we can grow and make Drupal Camp even better that before. That's why I want to TRY doing it this way. If it bombs, well it's my fault and I'll take the blame for it. But I don't think that it's fair for everyone to be ganging up on me when I want to do something a little differently. Jacob put a lot of trust in me when he left and asked me to run this Drupal Camp. I'm humbly asking that you (collectively) do the same.
Mike
hardly community process
You started creating a new home for NYC Drupal Camp without any community discussion before hand.
Now you simply want people to shut up because you are nearly done?
That is not a healthy community based method for organizing.
You have still not answered the question I posed on the poll. If the community does not agree with you, are you willing to go along? Are you just going to do what you want to anyway?
What I'd like to know is who
What I'd like to know is who are you an alt for? Why don't you have the moxie to state your problems to my face? And yes, I don't have much of a choice if the community at large disagrees with me. All that I ask, is that people calm down and think about it rationally before making a decision. I'm looking at this from a marketing standpoint, and I feel that we can gain a stronger foothold with an independent central location. If we post on barcamp and push to an external site (like Drupal Camp Toronto did), we'll grab the barcamp people. If we post on d.o and push to an external site, like a lot of other conferences have done in the past, we can grab those people too. I also wanted to reach out to the PHP groups in the NYC area as well as other CMS groups. I think that if we're sending people from their own location of comfort to a site that isn't a site specific for this event, that we will lose a lot of people who would have otherwise come. Now keep in mind that I'm not saying that we're going to lose people if we keep doing what we're doing. I'm merely stating that we won't grow as much as we could. I think that it's at least worth the effort of trying.
Mike
Stop.
Let me nip this in the bud right here. Don't call people out with no proof of anything, as you insinuate below, THAT is flaming, michael. Calling someone out personally for stating opinions.
Lets keep this clean and rational. Doesn't matter if the person is an alternate identity as long as there is no flaming. IMO.
Tresler Designs
CNDP, LLC
building community
Building community does not require Marketing, it requires good group process, transparency of process and finances, and inclusionary methods.
The size of drupal camp is meaningless to the quality of the event and the value to the community. The process by which we organize is critical.
I'm not comfortable with how you have handled the debate; the questions you have avoided and your tone towards some of those that disagree with you.
I ask you to take a step back and think about what people are saying, otherwise you run the risk of breeding conflict and division in the community..
lots of I, no "we"
are you working WITH others to pull off this event or not?
I'm sorry, but I really think you need to look at your role differently.
You want us to ignore very valid concerns and just trust you when it is clear that you don't trust the group you are supposedly organizing with.
Address the issues of power and control; address the issues of site longevity; address the concerns of the group.
Do not expect those of us with dozens of years of experience to simply trust you when we feel you are heading in a direction that some of us have seen turn bad in the past.
Eric, I think you're way off
Eric,
I think you're way off base here. And insinuating that I don't trust the group is flat out flaming. I DO trust the group. I think that the way things have been done in the past work quite nicely. I'm just trying something else. There isn't any harm in that. I modeled the idea off of what Drupal Camp Toronto did. That event was well put together, had a huge turnout, and ran like a well oiled machine, mostly because they kept everything in a central location where they could USE the data that they collected, not just print out a roster of who's supposed to be there.
The NYC group is growing by leaps and bounds. I think that, with the right marketing and being able to utilize the data we're collecting, we can make this event better. And with that, we really (in my opinion) NEED to have greater functionality and control over what the barcamp site can offer.
Mike
trust
It is an issue of process and goals. You give me the impression that you think group process is a waste of time and that the goal of keeping this all within infrastructure already in the community is useless.
Trying something new is great, but you have to understand that you are doing so as a lone cowboy and not an organizer/participant in a larger community.
I find your stated positions to be disturbing, as I do your lack of response to the question from gadfly when s/he asks if you will respect the group decision.
At this point on the poll, over 80% of those responding do not agree with you. what will you do when you do not win the vote?
Same as above. bordering on flame
http://groups.drupal.org/node/7586#comment-22511
"lone cowboy" and restating what you've clearly said several times, and michael has answered above about the community disagreeing with him - is a more than a little antagonistic. Lets keep the discussion rational, if we can.
Tresler Designs
CNDP, LLC
sorry, i'll back off
thanks for the poke. you are right.
Certain issues are of great concern to me and Michael has hit a nerve. I'm going to step back from this debate and let other do the talking.
sorry.
Eric, I find the fact that
Eric, I find the fact that you're putting words in my mouth is what is truly disturbing. That's not fair of you at all. I have never stated anything to the effect that group process is useless, and I am quite frankly extremely insulted in the fact that you think that is how I feel.
And just for fact, I have already responded to gadfly's (whoever's alt that is) question. Check the timestamps on the posts.
Now what I feel you're doing now, is simply flaming me. Grow up.
no reply to gadfly
http://groups.drupal.org/node/7584#comment-22492
as of 2:30 pm eastern time I see no reply from you.
I'm sorry if my comments are making you angry, but you have to see that the way you are conducting yourself in this debate has at times been dismissive and disrespectful to those that disagree with you.
My intent is not to flame, but to push the debate so the important issues get addressed.
http://groups.drupal.org/node
http://groups.drupal.org/node/7586#comment-22509
I replied in THIS thread, as it was reposted because the question was in a poll and for voting, while this post is for discussion.
My $0.02
This isn't an issue of marketing for two reasons. First, community events are organized. Marketing is simply the wrong word for this context. DrupalCampNYC is an event put together by the NYC Drupal community. There's no market there; what is there is a community that is open to participation from anyone, but I hate to think of that as a market. Products are marketed and we aren't selling anything, we might have a cool logo but that does not mean we (NYC Drupal community) or what we do (DrupalCamp) is in any way a product to be marketed.
Secondly, until this group decides that a new site is warranted as a result of these discussions, any new site is already bad marketing. If there is a new site that no one in the community is using, because we decided we didn't want that site, what does that say about our "brand" and how will an ugly mess help bring people to our event?
So if there ever was a question of marketing, it is on hold until the bigger discussion is settled.
I've read most of the threads on this larger subject and have gathered that the aim of a new site separate from this group, or the barcamp site takes on two main roles. One, promotion of, and registration for the DrupalCamp. Two, a place to aggregate the collected happenings of the event (live blogs, videos, images, notes, etc).
There are two very different types of data in those two uses. The latter is documentation, produced specifically to be helpful to people in the future. The former is only useful if you want to do stuff like send people bulk emails and CRM. I don't want that. I'm fine with that registration information being mostly useless after the event. If we are talking about "utilizing" the data, that raises some questions about privacy and access. What data? How are we using it? Who are we? Who ultimately owns the database, and the information therein (specifically if this data is not being stored on community architecture)?
These are some pretty big questions, that I really don't think we need to tackle.
The Barcamp wiki has worked just fine in the past. Its ugly, but its tried and true. That said I'm throwing my lot in with using groups.d.o because figuring out how to plan Drupal events on this site is definitely something that other local groups can use and build on. It helps everyone. It is hosted on public architecture.
Though I like the idea of having a site containing the collected happenings of DrupalCamp, citing my privacy concerns above, and the concerns of others, I don't think we should use a new site for any planning of, registration for, or promotion of DrupalCampNYC.
If we really want a DrupalCampNYC site, why don't we build it at DrupalCamp? I haven't fully thought this out yet, but having a room that was dedicated to just banging out the site might be kind of fun. It would give new Drupalers a chance to watch a bunch of experienced folks build a site. It would give the experienced folks a chance to pick up new little things that they may never have realized. From the basics of the install to the discussions we'll have on the best way to taxonomize, there's lessons to be had by all. In the end we would have a site that where can input the general happenings of the event. It will truly be the work of everyone who wants to be involved.
Though we would need to get a domain controlled by the community, and some form of community access to hosting, but this plan also buys us between now and DrupalCampNYC to sort all that out.
Awesome Idea
A room at DrupalCampNYC that anyone can walk in and out of all day long and watch or participate in building the new site.
+1
As context for the
As context for the discussion on managing large numbers of registrants: How many registrants were there for the last Drupalcamp NYC?
less than 200
http://barcamp.org/DrupalCampNYC3Attendants
That page does not totally reflect reality. More space was available than initially expected, so the registration limit was raised and everyone that wanted to was able to attend.
Since there is no fee involved, registration is really only a way of getting an idea of how many people plan on attending. This is needed to reserve enough classrooms, buy enough food and t-shirts etc. Unlike a formal conference, no on-site registration or sign-in has been necessary at any of the 3 NYC Drupal Camps.
Even if there needs to be a registration cutoff because there are more people interested in attending than we can accommodate, I don't think we would need to do a formal sign-in at the door.
Therefor, the needs of the registration system are not at all complex.
Since I posted on the poll
Since I posted on the poll thread BEFORE Sam pointing out this thread existance, I'm double posting what I said.
I've got a few thoughts...
I think having a separate site outside of existing community infrastructure could be a somewhat risky proposition. Not saying that this would happen here, but I encountered a situation with a BarCamp where they decided to own a separate website for themselves apart from barcamp.org, and what ended up happening is the owner of the domain decided that he was the end all be all for BarCamp planning in the area. The beauty of BarCamp and my extension DrupalCamp is that anyone can start one. If someone buys a domain to start a Bar/DrupalCamp site for a certain area and then decide they don't want to share that space with others in the community who'd like to plan an event... that can be potentially detrimental for the community at large and confusing for any newcomers.
Keeping the DrupalCamp site in an existing community architecture, whether it be BarCamp.org or Drupal groups could avoid any potential "ownership" issues in the future.
Personally, I haven't had any issues with the way things have been done previously with the DrupalCamp website on BarCamp.org and then being promoted and discussed on the NYC Drupal group OTHER than the fact that I don't live in NYC (I live in New Hampshire) and for the majority of the year most of what's being said in this group just makes me feel bad that I live out in the sticks. ;) So maybe having a group specifically for DrupalCampNYC wouldn't be such a bad idea.
Good Community Conference Architecture Found!
Some guys I know are part of PodCampNYC http://podcampnyc2.confabb.com/conferences/PodCampNYC2. They by chance are having a Conference February 29 - March 1, 2008 AT POLYTECH UNIVERSITY. Hmm... don't know anyone else doing anything like that. They are using confabb http://www.confabb.com/ as a platform. Their site looks pretty damn good and it is very functional. I think it is what Michael and others are envisioning for the DrupalNYC site. Further, the site is hosted by a third party which is not going anywhere. The PodCamp guys are the real deal when it comes to un-conferencing. We could learn a lot from them.
No more islands..
The barcamp vs. roll-your-own discussion has raged at most of the camps. Most recently was "Bad Camp" San Francisco. http://www.badcamp07.org/ . A few months ago I was in the email discussion about whether or not to create the badcamp07.org website or to use barcamp.org. I suggested they use barcamp.org and they countered with the need to use Drupal. The "eat your own dog food" argument.
While I don't necessarily agree with their decision I do fully understand why they decided to do this. Their camp was a terrific success, just like Toronto's BUT the website was a complete mess. Just like the website for DrupalCon the forums were broken and tons of little annoying bugs cropped up all over the place. I think this should've been expected though. Creating a community website still isn't a drag-n-drop, plug-n-play (insert your own analogy here) process. We should all know this, this is what we do for a living (i.e. there is a reason we get paid to do this.. ya know).
This is what I suggest.
1) use barcamp.org. Seriously stop creating more domains with a short timeframe and can't branch out for more purposes.
---DrupalCampNYC4 should use barcamp.org. Its the "tradition", its fast, easy and does everything that needs to be done (no fuss, no muss). Prior camps haven't shown any need to use any other software. If you don't believe me, go to http://www.badcamp07.org/ and check out how often they used the features of Drupal that they really "needed". Its an awesome site and a lot of great work went into it but.. in the end was it worth it?
2) don't use barcamp.org.
--- Its recognized that barcamp.org doesn't have all of the features that a drupalcamp needs to really function. I recognized this when I was organizing, LA recognized it (they used yahoo groups), SF recognized it, Toronto recognized it, Drupalcon..... etc. You get the idea. Barcamp.org kinda sucks in a way but STOP creating more websites!!!
I am repeating the suggestions I have given in numerous private email conversations.
Stop pouring so much time and energy into creating islands. I apologize to the Badcamp people for this because I'm not trying to pick on them but they created an island. Weeks of energy went into creating a site that last 3 days and now no other Drupalcamp can use the site. Heck they can't even use the site for BadCamp 08.. they have to create a whole new site.
Put this time and energy into either (a) bettering groups.drupal.org so that it handles the new functionality OR..
my suggestion is....
help....
create....
camps.drupal.org
as barcamp.org is to barcamps. camps.drupal.org would be to drupalcamps.
One place that users from ALL over the WORLD can come to find information about Drupalcamps. Personally I think the drupal community has grown to a large enough population to justify the use of a new url off of drupal.org (or drupalcamp.org; which is owned by Noel Hildago, the first organizer of DrupalCampNYC and whom want the community to use it, freely).
Although the camps are geographic in nature I think we tend to forget that they are still about the community at large. When I state community I'm talking about the world-wide community not the 150 or 200 people that turn out for your local community. In the end that "large" group of people is a drop in the bucket. What makes the 200 people in NYC better than the 200 people in S.F? or the 150 in L.A? or the 200 people in Toronto? or Paris? or Brussels? or Barcelona? or London? Or.. Shanghai???
Why do ALL of these groups need their OWN website? They are all doing the same thing in almost a picture perfect manner. Stop creating islands.
My suggestion summarized
1) Use barcamp.org NOW
2) Begin work towards camps.drupal.org (or drupalcamp.org). ONE place for the WORLD to use.
My steps to seeing camps.drupal.org realized
Once this list is compiled suggest ways they can be handled with current stable, well-supported modules. This list with site ideas would be presented to the many maintainers on drupal.org for inclusion as part of the drupal.org domain.
Heck why don't you make this a session at the Drupalcamp
"How to carefully plan out a Drupal site from thought, conception and module selection"
To be honest I would wholeheartedly support adding this functionality into the existing barcamp.org site but I do understand the Drupal community's desire to "eat their own dog food".
I think you get the idea of my thoughts on this topic.
-Jacob Redding
-Jacob Redding
Excellent suggestion
I think this is an excellent suggestion.
There are so many great folk in the Drupal community in NYC and region, and we should make the most this. camps.drupal.org is a project that we could work on over the weekend of the camp, and as Jacob says, it would benefit the Drupal community in the rest of the world. Finally Drupal would have a place that would suit our needs for organizing the camps, which is in the community and can grow to suit everyone's needs.
Until it's ready I agree that we should use barcamp to organise the event (or groups.drupal.org if that's preferred by the community), and then post the videos and suchlike on the new camps.drupal.org afterwards.
Thomas
http://www.thomasturnbull.com
http://twitter.com/thomasturnbull
Agreed.
The more I think about the idea of building camps.drupal.org, the more I like it.
It kills the discussion of using a third site for registration/ promotion. Judging from the early poll numbers, that is something 78% of us seem to agree about. Picking this option means that a third site will simply not exist until the event is actually taking place.
Everyone seems to agree, aggregating information from DrupalCampNYC is beneficial to the larger Drupal community. Arguments have been made that groups.d.o is not the proper infrastructure for the type of content that will be generated at DrupalCamp, and that a custom install of Drupal would better suit the needs of campers. I'm not convinced of this personally, but I don't think that creating a new site geared towards DrupalCamps is a categorically bad idea. Having a site that wasn't built out of the collaboration of all interested folks in the NYC Drupal community, but built for them, is categorically a bad idea. It rings so false to the sense of community that such a site would be trying to build in the first place. Also, why have a project that so few people worked to bring about while there was so much interest in working to bring it about? Why not use all the interested people in the community to build something for the community?
This is a great opportunity for collaboration, teaching, learning, and contributing to the global Drupal community. I think it will be really interesting to have a room full of Drupal talent that has never worked together conceptualize , plan and implement a Drupal site over the course of a weekend (hopefully). That kind of interaction could also be really beneficial for new folks; getting to see what really goes in to the execution of a Drupal project, along with some of the nuts and bolts like a base install.
The end product of this would be a site, given the initial push by us, that belongs to the global Drupal community. It will be available to be used for future DrupalCamps in NYC and elsewhere. It will have its DNS hosted within the Drupal community. It will presumably be on some form of community hosting. It will immediately draw the interest (and eventually work) of other Drupal groups planning camps, bugs will get fixed.
Thanks for your sage advice Jacob
Thanks for your sage advice Jacob. I agree. We should use barcamp.org for now, but work towards building a system with additional functionality that will benefit the whole community/world. There are lots of great DrupalCamp discussions in this topic. Let's steer our energy away from arguing about building a separate site and take some definitive action both now and at DrupalCampNYC towards creating camps.drupal.org (or drupalcamp.org).
Good idea, however
I really like this idea, and think that it is probably the better long term solution to this question, which is one that seems to get raised at every camp, however, this is not something that should be undergone lightly.
There are quite a few hurdles that need to happen if we pursue this path and most of them won't be conquered in a single weekend of hacking. I think it is worth exploring a few options before we even put it on the table. Like, what is the process to approach the DA about adding a subdomain to drupal.org? Would OSUOSL be able to handle the hosting? Of course, if we are doing it properly, this ould be developed on any domain and then ported once we hammer those issues out... ...
Can we bring this topic up with the larger community as a whole and get their feedback (and Help!) on it? Before we make any decisions? Also would love a few others from this group to weigh in. Thanks Jacob.
Tresler Designs
CNDP, LLC
agreed
This is more a long-term plan and goal than something we can just create in a weekend.
We'll need to talk to a lot of other folks, as you point out. OSUOSL, Dries, the folks that coordinate groups.drupal, the other groups that have been doing drupal camps, etc.
We can start, as Jacob suggests, by coming up with a list of what we believe would be needed, then get feedback from others, then make a formal proposal to the drupal community about this.
Hopefully, by the time we're ready to pull of nyc drupal camp 5 things will be close to ready.
The world is watching
For those of you who don't know me I recently moved from New York City to Beijing, China. The one thing I can say about Beijing in regards to Drupal is....
They are watching you.
China hasn't had a DrupalCamp yet and the Drupal meetups are just beginning. The city, and country, is full of talented, bright programmers that are eager to get involved in OSS but they are currently heavily involved in creating their own islands. China has become infamous for reinventing the wheel. Some of it for good reasons (mainly language) others seem to be just because.
I've been communicating with several developers from all over the country and based on my brief discussions with them what I see/read/hear is that they want to get involved with the worldwide community but that they don't know how. I'm hoping that I can take what I learned about running meetups, camps, etc. in the U.S and teach others here in China so that they start doing the same.
I'd love to see the power and the size of these awesome Chinese developers working in tandem with developers from all over the world. I hate to see them working on the Islands they are currently on.
So please remember that you're in NYC. There are more eyes on you and your actions that you may ever know.
Of course this same message goes out to all of those involved in the Drupal community as they are all important (S.F, Toronto, the Cons, etc.).
Islands bad. Community good.
-Jacob Redding
-Jacob Redding
The world is watching
sorry.. my stupid slow connection from 中国. 太慢的。
-Jacob Redding
One more vote for camps.drupal.org or drupalcamp.org
I agree with jredding, gnat and others who are advocating for the group site. In fact - I think just about any variation of a shared site (whether it is barcamp, drupal groups or a new drupal camp site) is preferable to a single site for just the NYC drupal camp.
I think my difference with michaelg derives from a different organizing perspective. If NYC drupal was an organization, with an established leadership and hierarchy, I would agree on a separate site. That is the way to build an organization.
However, I think of NYC drupal as being something different. For one thing - it is part of a much bigger movement and it owes it's existence to that bigger movement. Creating an individual site will harm the bigger movement (by splintering it) even if it makes it easier for the NYC group to grow.
I think the NYC drupal groups should maintain a goal of supporting the bigger movement.
The second biggest reason to do so is to enable better community control of the site and create an environment where we can maintain a more fluid leadership. Most people here have the resources to easily put up a new web site, but what happens if that person leaves? Or abuses that control? With a group as loose and fluid as this one, I think it's more powerful to keep the site infrastructure in the hands of people who's goal is not just NYC drupal users but all drupal users.