Chat transcript, IRC Meeting, August 7, 2008

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Chat transcript of the meeting discussing and reviewing proposals.

This transcript is cut and pasted from the chat log

  <NewsCloud>   hello, here for the KDI review
<agentrickard>    Hey, is that Jeff?
<NewsCloud>   Yep
    <nickvidal>   hi :)
  <agentrickard>    How's your morale?
    <billfitzgerald>  hello, all!
    <NewsCloud>   Good! Thanks for asking! :)
    <NewsCloud>   Hi Nick!
   <NewsCloud>   Hi Bill!
   <agentrickard>    hey, I just hope trees don't fall on my house this time
   <billfitzgerald>  hello, Jeff, Nick, Ken -- good to see you all here
<agentrickard>    billfitzgerald: any updte from Knight on your project?
<billfitzgerald>  I've been working on the App for knight, and it's going well
<billfitzgerald>  Jose Zamora is great
   <agentrickard>    he may drop in today, too
  <billfitzgerald>  it's a lot of work, though -- some of the ideas from the Group discussions apply, but there are other different/broader questions as well
<agentrickard>    yes -- I hope it ends up worthwhile.
   <billfitzgerald>  really, it's a great process -- forces you to think about small and big-picture details
   <billfitzgerald>  yeah -- me too :)
  <nickvidal>   @bill: great to hear your progress
<manuee>  http://drupaldojo.com is down ?
    <billfitzgerald>  I don't know if I'd call it progress ;)
  <nickvidal>   if it forces you to think, i would say so :)
   <agentrickard>    so -- to other folks in the channel -- are we talking insiders only for KDI, or are other people paying attention?
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    <manuee>  ill ignore the convo since i got no clue what u talkin bout nevermind me
   <manuee>  thought there was a lesson goin on and was trying to see in the site if it was the case
    <agentrickard>    http://groups.drupal.org/node/12974
    <Druplicon>   http://groups.drupal.org/node/12974 => KDI: Proposal Review => 3 IRC mentions
    <yogadex> Hey all (Dave Cohen here).
<NewsCloud>   Hi Dave!
   <nickvidal>   hi dave
    <agentrickard>    hey Dave
   <yogadex> hey I'm conecting from the linuxworld conference. If I disappear its because the wifi is weak.
    <agentrickard>    funny how that goes
    <manuee>  ow k agentrickard thnx
<manuee>  sorry to bother u guys ill just "listen"
<agentrickard>    so we should do a little procedure review
  <yogadex> Sounds good.
   <agentrickard>    based on the last session, I think we should give each proposal two shots at formal review.
    <billfitzgerald>  sounds good
    <NewsCloud>   Ken, I wonder if we should hold off on more reviews until there are at least 25 participants
   <agentrickard>    so if you didn't get enough votes, or need to make changes, you have more time
    <NewsCloud>   I think the process as a whole would benefit from more diverse involvement of the community
    <agentrickard>    (this applies directly to the NewsCloud debate going on right now)
<agentrickard>    seconded
   <NewsCloud>   Perhaps we could all go do some PR for the effort
  <agentrickard>    please
<agentrickard>    I think billfitzgerald and yogadex and I are the only ones
<billfitzgerald>  yeah --
    * agentrickard  is speaking at DrupalCON Szeged
    <agentrickard>    and people who make proposals do not need to be shy about recruiting reviewers
<yogadex> I mention KDI whenever I can but I don't reach a large enough audience.
   <NewsCloud>   Is there no mechanism on Drupal dot org to push this out more?
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    <agentrickard>    it is a little bit of a tough sell -- people either don't know what it is or confuse it with the News Challenge
   <agentrickard>    NewsCloud: there is, but I don't think any of us have permissions to do so
    <yogadex> It has been on the front page of d.o.
  <agentrickard>    I had to get Michelle to promote that yesterday
    <agentrickard>    we should run through proposal status and then talk PR strategy
    =-= m1mic|afk is now known as m1mic
    <NewsCloud>   ok
<Michelle>    The KDI? Yeah, I decided not to try and do that for advforum once I saw the level of the other proposals.
  <agentrickard>    Michelle: did you review any?
  <agentrickard>    NewsCloud: Michelle is a target user for you
   <Michelle>    No, just kinda skimmed them a bit and realized I was out of my league
  <Michelle>    The ones I looked at I couldn't even understand
   <agentrickard>    hardly
<agentrickard>    now that's an interesting problem.
    <NewsCloud>   Hi Michelle - feel free to email me at jeff at newscloud dot com
   <agentrickard>    so http://groups.drupal.org/node/11859
<Druplicon>   http://groups.drupal.org/node/11859 => Information-Sharing using FeedAPI and Buddylist => 2 IRC mentions
<agentrickard>    has 9 votes
    <agentrickard>    and has been gaining some momentum
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  <agentrickard>    http://groups.drupal.org/node/13071
    <Druplicon>   http://groups.drupal.org/node/13071 => Facebook Application for Personal or Community Online Newspaper => 1 IRC mention
  <yogadex> Is 10 votes the target?
    <agentrickard>    it is the propsed target
   <agentrickard>    and no one has challenged that proposal
    * agentrickard  would love for 100 to be the target
    <Michelle>    Yeah, some pretty advanced stuff there. I would have felt silly proposing something for my little forum mod
    <billfitzgerald>  it's a solid proposal, and the deliverables are clearly laid out, and it has support from the uni
<yogadex> I think the ones that don't have 10 votes yet will have them before long.
<agentrickard>    right, but how long do we make people wait? nickvidal submitted weeks ago
  <billfitzgerald>  nickvidal's app is solid -- I think it should be forwarded along
  <agentrickard>    has everyone voted on it?
  <nickvidal>   it takes a while to bootstrap, i suppose
   <agentrickard>    true
   <nickvidal>   thank you bill
<yogadex> IMHO, if Knight has the bandwidth to consider them, lets send along rather than wait.
  <billfitzgerald>  agreed w/ yogadex
  <agentrickard>    I would agree with that
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    <agentrickard>    so that means we have two proposals to pass along
  * gusaus    just voted on it
   <agentrickard>    and one to debate with the commuity
    <agentrickard>    community
  <agentrickard>    do we need to discuss withe Information-Sharing or the FaceBook apps?
  <Michelle>    Curious... What happens with something like #11859 where they have a deadline that is fast approaching. If they get it all done before this KDI process goes thru, do they still get the money?
    <agentrickard>    otherwise, I'll send notices to the proposers and Knight to get things moving
<agentrickard>    that's a Knight question. And I think the answer is no.
   <nickvidal>   @michelle: indeed with have a strict deadline, so my proposal has more to do with packaging and documentation
  <nickvidal>   we
    <agentrickard>    I think that nickvidal is also asking, in essence, for scholarship money, which Knight may look on differently.
    <nickvidal>   i sure need help polishing things up, and it would be a nice opportunity to teach others as well
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   <Michelle>    So for it to be worthwhile, you need something big and you need to be able to wait a while to do it and you need to have a lot of time to follow thru the whole process.
   <agentrickard>    big but not necessarily huge
   <agentrickard>    but certainly a long-term project
  <nickvidal>   i think bill's project follow this line more appropriately
    * agentrickard  looked at a News Challenge grant that was 2 years
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   <billfitzgerald>  the level of follow through is something that comes up in the Knight paperwork
<agentrickard>    nickvidal: I am assuming, as well, that international issues (being from Brazil) will not be an issue for Knoght
   <agentrickard>    they do audits, right?
<nickvidal>   i hope
<billfitzgerald>  they ask for financial info, yes -- it's different for us b/c we are not a non-profit
<agentrickard>    we were told that it was not an obstacle, so you should be fine.
   <Michelle>    Well, I gotta go parent. Catch you all later.
  <agentrickard>    thanks, Michelle
   <billfitzgerald>  bye, Michelle
  <nickvidal>   bye michelle, nice to meet you
<yogadex> likewise, michelle
<agentrickard>    ok, so do we want to discuss the NewsCloud proposal? Since I think the other two are settled.
  <yogadex> I see it got some comments today that I have yet to read...
    <NewsCloud>   Ken, again - if it just makes sense here to gather people's feedback and come back later with a final proposal - I'm really open to that.
    <agentrickard>    I think that's what has to happen
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<billfitzgerald>  NewsCloud -- are you open to reworking the proposal?
   <NewsCloud>   I guess what would be really helpful to me is to identify core areas that need to be added to the spec.
    <agentrickard>    so we have time if anyone wants to chat about that. I can see pros and cons to the proposal
    <NewsCloud>   Yes
    <NewsCloud>   Keep in mind, the app form is very limited ... a full spec isn't a requirement for this stage of the proposal. I wasn't trying to create a full spec in my app
   <NewsCloud>   proposal.
  <NewsCloud>   Can I add a few more things before opening the floor...
    <agentrickard>    sure
   <NewsCloud>   I am not a Drupal developer but I am a s/w architect.
  <agentrickard>    you should consider the application open for improvement
   <NewsCloud>   The Drupal Developer Dave Tarc worked with me and we tried to pick the platform with the most installed base
   <NewsCloud>   We tried to pick Drupal intrinsics to support wherever possible
    <NewsCloud>   e.g. we used comments, we used voting
  <agentrickard>    I think the resistance you're hitting is as someone new to the community, especially since the project steps near other projects
  <agentrickard>    so there is soe skepticism
<agentrickard>    some
   <NewsCloud>   Looking ahead to supporting D6, we're pretty open to adding support for commonly used Drupal tech
<NewsCloud>   e.g. install profiles
  <billfitzgerald>  Ken, I don't think this is related to being a newcomer
    <agentrickard>    ok
<NewsCloud>   Where it makes sense to add support for other architectures - I am very open to this... but it would help to have scenarios.
   <NewsCloud>   And also to be sure everyone understands what the capability of the module is and will be over time.
   <NewsCloud>   Drupal site members use the module on sites their on transparently. They never need to login at NewsCloud to benefit.
  <NewsCloud>   that's all...
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  <agentrickard>    that part might be made more clear
<NewsCloud>   ok - I can add that to the proposal more clearly. the demo has a cron bug so it keeps going in and out (and Dave has been too busy to patch it) but you can see this on the demo site.
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<billfitzgerald>  Jeff, the main thrust of what I was trying to get at in my comments -- and this probably got lost in the ebb and flow of the discussion -- is that there might be easier ways to do this
   <NewsCloud>   listening...
   <billfitzgerald>  The functionality you describe is great
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   <billfitzgerald>  but the middleware, and the necessity for it being a ground-up effort has never been made clear
    <NewsCloud>   let me try to address this a bit
   <NewsCloud>   The major architectural push at NewsCloud is to create an automated, feature-rich newsroom that can be used anywhere - on any platform.
    <billfitzgerald>  please -- I've been trying to understand, and you've been trying to explain, but we've missed each other...
<NewsCloud>   You can see an early version of this in our NewsClouds pages on our site
   <NewsCloud>   The idea is that a group can choose a topic that already exists in our community
   <NewsCloud>   or create a new topic with their own tags and feeds
    <NewsCloud>   So, while you could have them configure this with drupal instrinsics ... e.g. feedapi
  <NewsCloud>   there is nothing in drupal today that would support sharing content, collaborating, co-moderating
  <nickvidal>   @newscloud wouldn't it be appropriate to think of a more decentralized architecture?
  <NewsCloud>   content across other platforms
<NewsCloud>   let me finish for a sec
    <agentrickard>    so if I fire a feed of Drupal news at NewsCloud, it will create a cloud for other to access?
   * agentrickard  apologizes
<NewsCloud>   there is a demo facebook framework that shows the cloud being accessed on a Facebook app
   <NewsCloud>   The early Drupal module shows an early take of this cloud on Drupal
    <NewsCloud>   that's kind of where development stands
   <NewsCloud>   ok - fire ahead
    <NewsCloud>   Ken, on the short list of features...
  <agentrickard>    > so if I fire a feed of Drupal news at NewsCloud, it will create a cloud for other to access?
  <NewsCloud>   is to allow configuration of a cloud through the api
   <billfitzgerald>  data wise, how is a cloud different that what I can collect via taxonomy, nodequeue, views, related content, or memes?
<NewsCloud>   while not fully familiar with memes ... I will say that the Web Services API we offer exposes this content to other platform solutions
<NewsCloud>   Now you could build all of this natively in Drupal
<NewsCloud>   and expose the content through an API through drupal to other platforms
    <billfitzgerald>  and how is this web services api different than what can be delivered via the services module?
<NewsCloud>   but then you get in to arguing whether Drupal should build every middleware app in Drupal
  <NewsCloud>   Again, NewsCloud has a bunch of features today around the way the community works - and features we're continuing to grow that add more than the native set of Drupal intrinsics offer.
   <NewsCloud>   Again - it's a two part question
  <NewsCloud>   1) Should Drupal community try to build every middleware solution or just expect its plugins to work well with its architecture?
   <NewsCloud>   2) Should KDI focus on innovative projects that lower the barrier to entry for social media (this plugin does) ... or should it exclusively focus on Drupal architecture development vs. external mdidleware? Perhaps this is a qeustion for Knight.
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  <NewsCloud>   I guess one other question is
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    <NewsCloud>   to date ... why hasn't anyone built a bridge to plone for Drupal social media features?
   <NewsCloud>   I think I'm coming in with an aindependent solution trying to reach more than one platform and I've shown initial capability to demonstrate I can do this ... Facebook/Drupal ..
<agentrickard>    that question is the part of NewsCloud that makes me interested in the idea
    <NewsCloud>   Connecting these different platforms with a core set of features is what I'm trying to do.
    <billfitzgerald>  but this is what web services does --
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<NewsCloud>   But configuring social media on drupal today is still kinda hard
   <billfitzgerald>  the "should drupal be every middleware" question is somewhat of a red herring
    <NewsCloud>   Configuring an automated newsroom is still kinda hard
  <NewsCloud>   Configuring Drupal to talk to plone/facebook - expensive and time consuming
    <billfitzgerald>  Creating a piece of middleware to talk to Plone/FB is expensive and time consuming
<NewsCloud>   I'm half way there.
   <NewsCloud>   I just think if you have KDI fund a drupal only automated newsroom install profile...
  <NewsCloud>   it's unlikely that would ever get extended to other platforms via services
    <NewsCloud>   Not sure though
    <NewsCloud>   I can appreciate the point that the Drupal community would like to see KDI fund other projects ...
<NewsCloud>   But I think what I'm suggesting here has merit on its own
<agentrickard>    I think the proposal does fit with some of the core Drupal goals
   <billfitzgerald>  Jeff -- the merit of the actual idea is without question
   <NewsCloud>   thx
    <billfitzgerald>  it's a great idea
<NewsCloud>   would you guys be willing to offer some time on email/phone to discuss changes that would make you more excited about the proposal?
    <billfitzgerald>  what happens if you walk away from the middleware? who will maintain it in your absence?
   <NewsCloud>   It's a bit of a non-starter for me to build something that doesn't benefit the NC ecosystem and api
  <billfitzgerald>  and yes, absolutely, re phone call
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   <NewsCloud>   I can't answer that very well...except to say that I have worked on this platform for 2.5 yrs. I also have another proposal with Knight under final review that would provide some additional resources for me.
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   <NewsCloud>   and that all the code is open source
   <billfitzgerald>  really, i don't care if the middleware is in Drupal, Plone, Django, or whatever
   <billfitzgerald>  part of the attraction of building off a pre-existing framework is that you are already plugged into a dev community
   <NewsCloud>   third party apps take more time to develop a following
<NewsCloud>   I am working on providing a straight-php version of the cloud and hope to build a following from that
  <NewsCloud>   the NC system itself is too complex for most people to install and use
<NewsCloud>   I often recommend Drupal :) to folks
   <NewsCloud>   Ken, for me, I would be glad to put in a call to Bill and hash out some of the ideas. See if we can come to some new ideas for where there needs to be open vs. third party approach.
  <NewsCloud>   Is there anyone else that wants to sound off in a 1:1 call with me on this?
    <agentrickard>    personally, I like the open exchange on g.d.o. I think it is healthy.
  <nickvidal>   @newscloud: how decentralized is newscloud?
    <agentrickard>    yogadex: is your proposal attached to a company?
   <NewsCloud>   Nick, can you be more specific?
    <billfitzgerald>  I'd much rather have greater community involvement
    <nickvidal>   from the proposal, i understand it's tied to newscloud.com
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  <NewsCloud>   Ken, I just didn't think we were getting very clear ideas from the comment thread. I would prefer a phone call with a follow up comment post.
<billfitzgerald>  Jeff, I also hope that you recognize that my feedback comes from a sincere desire to see a good proposal
   <NewsCloud>   Yes, NC is the service provider for an automated-topic-based social media newsroom
<NewsCloud>   Bill, I get that ... which is why I'm open to talking more :)
<nickvidal>   what if newscloud goes down?
   <billfitzgerald>  cool -- just checking :)
   <NewsCloud>   Nick, down or away?
    <yogadex> agentrickard: no company now. If the proposal is accepted as is, we'd form an organization to host it.
    <NewsCloud>   It's been pretty solid the past couple of years. I addressed the away part above in chat.
<nickvidal>   but it is a central part, right?
   <agentrickard>    yogadex: ok, just writing the introduction letter
  <nickvidal>   could other relying sites work with newscloud.com down?
    <NewsCloud>   at this time - the sites would work with newscloud.com down - but they wouldn't update substantially until the service came back up
   <NewsCloud>   is the NC.com service swap-out-able? theoretically. I don't see that in the near future though.
   <nickvidal>   wouldn't a more decentralized be better?
  <nickvidal>   architecture

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<NewsCloud>   Yes, but there isn't a standard architecture yet for this kind of feature.
    <NewsCloud>   I mean there is RSS
    <NewsCloud>   but there isn't a lot of infrastructure built in this area yet
    <NewsCloud>   I think it makes sense for me to go back...
    <NewsCloud>   and think about how to present the clouds architecture so it could be replicated by other services more easily
<billfitzgerald>  I would love to see a shift to a more federated model
  <nickvidal>   me too
<NewsCloud>   can you be more specific?
  <NewsCloud>   are you agreeing with my last point?
   <NewsCloud>   theoretically, I could design a server engine that handles the core heavy lifting for the clouds api
   <nickvidal>   i'm agreeing with both bill and your last point :)
    <billfitzgerald>  as you said earlier -- "is the NC.com service swap-out-able? theoretically."
<NewsCloud>   and that could be separate, open source, and easily installable
    <NewsCloud>   it would be a more expensive effort but very doable
    <NewsCloud>   I would say that the KDI goals don't push for this ... so it would be asking Knight for additional funding for infrastructure that isn't clear they are asking for
   <NewsCloud>   just a thought
<nickvidal>   i'm not sure the issue is money
   <nickvidal>   it's the architectural design
<nickvidal>   if you see bill's and mine proposal, it is very decentralized
<NewsCloud>   ok
<nickvidal>   my
    <NewsCloud>   this is very helpful
   <NewsCloud>   it's helping me think through the NC approach
<NewsCloud>   in a different way
<NewsCloud>   thanks
<nickvidal>   you're welcome
    <billfitzgerald>  absolutely --
  <agentrickard>    let me just say that the bridge-across-many-paltforms idea has real merit.
<agentrickard>    nickvidal: did you get my email?
   <billfitzgerald>  yes -- that's a really strong component
   <agentrickard>    and I don't think that central paltform needs to be Drupalized
    <nickvidal>   @ken checking
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   <NewsCloud>   can you guys post your contact info for me? or email me at jeff at newscloud dot com
   <agentrickard>    I need to know, more clearly, how NC module will help people interact on my site
   <agentrickard>    but, I just installed the FB version, and get some idea
    <billfitzgerald>  what agentrickard said
<NewsCloud>   the FB version is an alpha without fully functional commenting/voting
  <agentrickard>    NewsCloud: I want to keep all discussions public.
  <yogadex> Question for NewsCloud and nickvidal: how much overlap do you see between your proposals?
  <agentrickard>    but we should all have contact forms at g.d.o.
<NewsCloud>   try /
  <NewsCloud>   http://newsroom.ourbridge.ca/
  <billfitzgerald>  re the central platform being Drupalized: agreed, not necessary
    <NewsCloud>   login as user/user or admin/admin
  <nickvidal>   @ken yes, just replied
<agentrickard>    nickvidal: and should I associate you with an organization in the welcome letter?
  <NewsCloud>   I've answered that in comments Yogadex but I think Nick should address it
<nickvidal>   @yodadex, honostly i think i see more overlap with mine and bill's proposal
   <nickvidal>   honestly

  <yogadex> Thanks for those answers. I'm still trying to fully understand the NewsCloud proposal, that's why I ask.
<nickvidal>   it's a decentralized architecture to distribute information in a bottom-up fashion.
   <billfitzgerald>  all of these proposals have overlaps, and that's not a bad thing
  <nickvidal>   overlapping is good, it means we are converging to an optimal answer! :)
   <yogadex> I agree the overlap is not bad. I think its inevitable given Knight's focus on news.
  <billfitzgerald>  and our focus on social media
  <nickvidal>   we are all trying to solve the information-sharing problem
<agentrickard>    yes
    <billfitzgerald>  I'm going to need to leave in approx 5 mins
   <agentrickard>    I think the problem I am having with NewsCloud is understanding the tangible benefit to me as a site owner. I just don't know how I would use it.
<agentrickard>    but we've beaten that to death today
  <NewsCloud>   Alex Samuel's posted a couple comments on this on the proposal - she posted two scenarios
<NewsCloud>   a lot of content CMS tend to get stale
<agentrickard>    I think the official word, then, is that the proposal stays open, with calls for revision based on the discussion
  <billfitzgerald>  those scenarios were way too general, and can be solved in an infinite number of ways
  <NewsCloud>   social media provides a way to have current events, discussion, etc.
   <NewsCloud>   sure
   <agentrickard>    I agree with billfitzgerald there. Too general.
    <NewsCloud>   Bill, I'll email you to coordinate a call
<NewsCloud>   Dave, Nick - let me know if you want to chat as well. jeff at newscloud dot com
    <NewsCloud>   Thanks everyone!
   <agentrickard>    billfitzgerald: are you going to be able to load the chat transcript later?
    <billfitzgerald>  yes
    <agentrickard>    NewsCloud: thank you
   <NewsCloud>   You're welcome!
   <billfitzgerald>  NewsCloud: thanks as well
  <agentrickard>    I already sent notes to Knight and nickvidal and yogadex
   <yogadex> Thanks all...
  <NewsCloud>   Bye
    <nickvidal>   thanks everyone
    <billfitzgerald>  bye

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