Help! How do I respond to this?

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xjm's picture

This morning I received an email from someone who used my contact form, someone I'd spoken to on IRC the previous day about contributing. It says, approximately (paraphrasing for privacy):

I just saw your profile on the community spotlight. I had no idea when you helped me the other day that you were a girl, and a pretty girl if you don't mind me saying so. Congratulations!

Now, obviously, this person isn't intending to be sexist or creepy. It's intended to be complimentary, and this person is also genuinely interested in contributing to the project. But, ick. How am I supposed to interact in the future, and be encouraging and supportive, when I know that this person is thinking of me as "a pretty girl"? Crap like this is exactly why I didn't mark myself as female on my d.o profile until I finally got sick of being called "he" on IRC this year. (This thread about marking one's profile really resonanted with me.) It's also exactly why I don't like having my name or picture on the internet. It's been very hard for me to overcome being terrified at the thought of people knowing who I am or knowing things about me, and this does. not. help.

I'd like to respond in a kind fashion, thanking the person for the compliment but also explaining why remarks like this aren't appropriate. I plan to use a different email account than my normal email account. But I'm tying myself in knots over what to say and how to not push a contributor away by being "overly sensitive" or something. Help? Any suggestions?

Comments

Yeah, I've gotten these sorts

linclark's picture

Yeah, I've gotten these sorts of comments on my Drupal tutorials on YouTube and one or twice on IRC or through Twitter.

My general response is to delete the comment, since it is off-topic for the discussion. When it's a one-on-one communication, like email or IRC, I just straight up let them know that it makes me feel uncomfortable. I used to say "thanks for the compliment" kinds of things, but that just made me feel ickier. So now I say, "Just so you know, I feel uncomfortable having people comment on my physical appearance."

I'd be interested in hearing other women's responses here, since there's no wrong answer but just the best answer for you.

Yep - I've been pretty

arianek's picture

Yep - I've been pretty liberal about letting my images/personal blog etc. be accessible for the last while (for a long time I used pseudonyms on the internet, particularly because my name is so unique, but about 6-7 yrs ago I switched to my real name). Luckily, I've rarely been a target of this kind of communication, and when it has happened it hasn't been too creepy.

But, I have had a couple through my contact form, and also when the Contributor Spotlight profile went up - actually it's still there http://drupal.org/community-spotlight/ariane-khachatourians#comment-3714524 pretty harmless but also totally "icky".

I am pretty sure that about 90% of these kinds of comments are because of cultural differences - for us it's really not acceptable in a "professional" environment like this (or even in most social situations) for a stranger to comment on your physical appearance. But I think in some places, particularly where there's less gender equality, this is more the norm and widely accepted. I've tried not to let it freak me out too much, as luckily I haven't had any personal contact with the people (like talking to them in IRC first) and have just ignored the messages.

But since you did have more personal contact with this person, my suggestion would be totally along the lines of what Lin said - just responding with "Just so you know, I feel uncomfortable having people comment on my physical appearance." and maybe adding something like "...and prefer if our conversations can stay on the topic of Drupal."

Lin is (sadly?) kind of a pro at dealing with this stuff, but I think her super cut-to-the-chase and unapologetic approach is spot on. Just pretend you're a guy receiving a message like that - nobody would think it was offensive or weird if you were like "uhhh, that's really not appropriate and i'm uncomfortable with you complimenting my appearance in a professional communication".

I could swear there's an old thread in here somewhere about similar things, but I couldn't find it among all the job and event posts (maybe I need to do some group audience weeding in here...).

Let us know how it goes!

Ooh ooh, I found it! It

arianek's picture

Ooh ooh, I found it! It wasn't a thread on here at all, but Lin's blog post http://lin-clark.com/blog/being-woman-tech-some-my-experiences

You have to respond in a way

slsonnier's picture

You have to respond in a way that makes you comfortable, but I usually ignore that type of comment. If I think the remark was meant to be benign, I really don't want the other party to feel uncomfortable. Tone gets lost in email quite often... and it just isn't a hill I want to battle over.

If the person were to continue with that type of remark, I might comment. Otherwise, I'd move on.

I was recently called

dsquaredb's picture

I was recently called "atypical" by someone I was discussing a Drupal job with. He went on to define "atypical" as 1) a woman and 2) old - neither of which I can deny. Needless to say, I didn't do business with him. So while I don't have to put up with the same discomfort from unwanted advances or unintended actions, it doesn't get much easier being a woman in tech - just different.

I agree the best tactic is politely letting them know you prefer to keep the discussion on Drupal.

DSquaredB
Danita Bowman

well, were it in person I'd

esmerel's picture

well, were it in person I'd tend to gasp all shocked like and look down my shirt for confirmation.

I've also made a point of enforcing my title (Senior blah blah whatever), or saying "I'm not sure what that has to do with my competency/helping you/etc, is there something you needed?"

But, I'm also a pushy, bad person.

=-=

vm's picture

Perhaps a males 2 cents may aid?

If I were a woman, I wouldn't acknowledge the compliment. Acknowledging the compliment could invite more of the same. Instead I'd explain in simple terms that the drupal community isn't gendercentric and that programming/supporting the project isn't gender specific. Then I'd thank the user solely for the idea of contribution.

That's a good point

xjm's picture

Thank you for pointing this out. The notion that it's polite to acknowledge something that's intended as a compliment is pretty hard to overcome, but frankly it was an insult and it ruined my day. I guess I shouldn't pretend otherwise, even if the email's author "meant well," so that there's no ambiguity to the fact that I don't think it's acceptable.

Depending on how

CatherineOmega's picture

Depending on how condescending you wanted to sound, you might even say something like, "Huh, that's kind of a weird thing to say. That's not even related to Drupal at all." A senior member of the community chiding him for off-topic would likely come across differently than "you're creepy", which...well, yeah, he really is.

Of course, I've responded to this kind of thing with, "Thanks, I'm glad my appearance meets your approval. That's REALLY important to me."

I usually go with something

Bastlynn's picture

I usually go with something like: "Thank you, but I would rather be congratulated on something I had control over and worked for - like my programming skills." If it's been a bad day I leave off the 'thank you' part. ;)

I find that approach keeps the person from feeling like they've been attacked for offering a compliment (not that it is one, just that that's usually the mindset on the other end of such lines) which keeps them from locking out your efforts to change their behavior. It also gives them clear guidance on what they should do next time and why the difference is important to you.

That's if the person you're talking to is reasonable. If they're not... then you'll find that out pretty quickly, and then I suggest just sending their emails to /dev/null.

Flip Side

maggielanoue's picture

Hopefully this is not too far off topic. My son showed me this video (he did not know about this thread) that showed how women and men would behave if women acted like men and vice versa. Called Flip Side. http://youtu.be/XzJC9OCT0ss
By the way I am looking forward to seeing you all at the Drupal Chix pre party in Denver. This will be my first DrupalCon.

I'm sure that this is already

Letharion's picture

I'm sure that this is already obvious to a lot of people, but not necessarily everyone, so I want to point out that for a lot of men, comments like this one, are really believed to be something positive. While I clearly understand why someone would send an entirely negative response to this, I don't think that's going to be entirely helpful in the end.

If I may, I would like to suggest something a long the lines of: "I appreciate that you want to thank me for helping out, but I would really prefer if gender could be kept out of this." This hopefully avoids being a mental slap, while pointing out that a mistake has been made.

But really, she doesn't

linclark's picture

But really, she doesn't appreciate it. This is a touchy subject because women in our society are conditioned to behave as if they have to constantly apologize/thank people... far more than men are conditioned to do the same.

I myself was conditioned to do this, and, as I said, it made me feel queasy in the pit of my stomach. To tell you the truth, since I've taken the tell-it-straight-and-then-move-on attitude, it's actually made these interactions smoother and less awkward for the other person while maintaining my own sense of dignity.

Don't want to start a S**Tstorm in this thread, but just wanted to point out the issue and my personal experience with it.

She absolutely shouldn't feel

Letharion's picture

Edit: I did the same mistake Michelle did. Ignore my posts, they don't make sense.

She absolutely shouldn't feel a need to lie about how she feels.

I'm just seeing a distinction between wanting to express appreciation and doing it in an in-appropriate way. Though perhaps there is none. Or perhaps it would be appropriate to ignore it.

I guess, if I made a similar mistake, I guess I would appreciate getting it told straight. Most other responses I could come up with sounds like I'm defending the behaviour, which I won't, so I'll leave it at that. :)

Doesn't she?

michelle's picture

I'm looking at this: "I appreciate that you want to thank me for helping out" and then "But really, she doesn't appreciate it."

It seems to me that what she doesn't appreciate is the gender related commenting, not the being thanked part. At least for me, I always appreciate a sincere thanks. What I'm getting out of this thread is that it isn't being thanked that's the problem but references to gender. So telling the person that you appreciate being thanked but want to leave gender out of it sounds spot on to me.

Michelle

Edit: I'm reading this thread over 2 days and just looked at the OP again and realized that the comment didn't actually have any thanking in it. Whoops! So take my words above as referring to a situation where someone actually said thanks at the same time as the gender comment. In this particular case, yeah, there's no thanking there, just a gender comment, so the response wouldn't make sense. Sorry for the confusion. :)

The subsequent comments tend

greta_drupal's picture

The subsequent comments tend to be the more telling. It's bad if the comment is "you are so pretty", to which you politely say "thank you". And, then he follows with "and your ____ are magnificent!". Then you just need to go shower immediately. :-)

A few humorous replies

greta_drupal's picture

This is tricky because as Letharion noted, some men, even the more highly evolved ones, think that they are paying a nice comment -- with respect to the "pretty girl" part. Even if a comment is "icky" to me, I try to consider believed intent...after the inner eye roll. In your case, because the person politely added "if you don't mind me saying so" seems that he meant the latter comment it in a benign way. The surprise at your being female is inexcusable.

Where cultural differences might play a big factor, age (generation) does as well.

When you are unsure, try humor. I usually respond with a similarly ridiculous comment, followed by a wicked grin:

"And, you seem pretty smart for a boy. Now that we have the whole gender nonsense out of the way, let's kick ass on this module, huh."

Or, trying something more subtle and more educational as:

"We modern women don't tend to be flattered by references to our gender or physical attributes in professional relationships. But, you probably meant well."

That is polite and educational. And, you also let them know that your "ick" is a collective "ick".

Actually, in this case, it's

CatherineOmega's picture

Actually, in this case, it's the "if you don't mind me saying so" that makes me think the guy in question knows that what he's saying may not be appreciated. He just doesn't care.

Frankly, if he'd left that out, it might actually seem "better", if only because it could be indicative of a greater degree of cluelessness on his part.

I agree, by saying that it

greta_drupal's picture

I agree, by saying that it does seem that the person might think it dodgy, but maybe felt the had established enough rapport for it not to be offensive. But, makes the response easy enough: "Yes, I do mind."

I would be completely

drnikki's picture

I would be completely offended by the email, though, like most others, I've had plenty of comments on my gender / appearance / sexual orientation and how the commenter thinks it intersects with my programming ability.

While professionally I'd recommend something along the lines of what the diplomats above have said, I've generally responded with "I had no idea that I was a pretty girl, and no idea that you were a gender-centric asshole." And as far as I know, I've never suffered from it professionally, either. If the person responds, they usually do it with more respect than if I'd deferred or ignored the "complement."

Great Discussion

hypnokayte's picture

Its so great to see this being discussed - most of us have probably experienced scrambled up versions of that exchange along the way. I know I have, and usually I either blow it off of use humor to deflect any awkward or marginally inappropriate comments. There are many times where I should have asserted myself more and I didn't, lots of great suggestions here on how to manage comments in the future.

Its been really interesting to read everyone's thoughts. When I first read that message, I thought it sounded like he was congratulating you for being pretty AND being smart - which is creepy and insulting. The congratulations was probably for being in the community spotlight.

I agree that the whole "if you don't mind me saying so" means that they likely knew that they were saying something inappropriate.

Same as people saying things like "I don't mean to be rude but....", "I don't want to sound mean but...." - if you have to preface what you are about to say with a disclaimer - you probably shouldn't say it!

A while back, I was really

Letharion's picture

A while back, I was really frustrated about the state of a specific issue queue. I felt like I spent way to much time educating people one what "reproducible" meant, and to little fixing actual problems. For to long I took it upon myself to educate to many people about what they should already now. It all boiled down to telling some energy requiring people in a firm tone that they needed to shape up.

In #contribute, someone told me that "If being somewhat rude in the issue queue is what it takes to not burn out, then so be it." I think that applies here too.
Quoting the OP: "this person is also genuinely interested in contributing to the project".
It's great that this person wants to help out, but if that comes at the cost of making xjm uncomfortable, no thanks. I've recieved xjm's help myself, and if risking the loss of a new contributer comes with xjm defending the right be a person, not a gender, then so be it.

@xjm, respond in a way that makes you feel ok, for the long term.

This is precisely the analogy

linclark's picture

This is precisely the analogy I've thought about recently.

It's kind of funny, developing my straight-up attitude to this sort of behavior coincided with me starting to create and maintain modules. I had to figure out how to manage people's demands on me and expectations of me (sometimes appropriate, sometimes inappropriate) in the issue queue in a way that wouldn't make me burn out... and I wonder if I subconsciously applied those lessons to the rest of my life. Anyways, it's another thing I can thank Drupal for if it did :)

Ack!

xjm's picture

OT, but please don't be rude in the issue queue. We need to foster a less negative environment in our issue queues. I expend so much energy trying to help others avoid abrasive issue queue experiences and I am crushed that someone would encourage you to undercut this work. (Edit: Really this can mean copy-and-pasting a polite templated response on WTF "steps to reproduce" means.) :P

Anyway. :) Thank you for saying this. Reading these posts, I did come to the conclusion that no matter how the person took my (not-rude-but-still-firm) response, my confidence was worth more to the project than the potential contributor if this person wasn't able to interact professionally. It actually also helped me realize that (in general) I help enough people contribute that it's okay to miss one once in awhile, for whatever reason. :)

Yah, at best it was meant to

arianek's picture

Yah, at best it was meant to be an innocent compliment. At worst, this person was hitting on you in what I think is a "professional" environment, which is pretty uncomfortable. I know there's no code of conduct around this, as it would be crazy complicated since our professional Drupal relationships do inevitably cross into personal friendships and relationships. But that doesn't mean that anyone should cross a line like that if you have zero personal relationship to begin with.

Totally agree with Letharion "@xjm, respond in a way that makes you feel ok, for the long term."

Obviously lots of people here have your back!