NOTE TO JOB POSTERS

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greta_drupal's picture

Dear Job Posters:

Please include in your job post instructions for submitting resumes/applications -- include email address or direct link to such info on your site. It is surprising how many of you (including some big agencies) do not include that information -- especially perplexing when your site has no link to an employment page that does. I'm sure that most of us would like to communicate with you in the way most preferred by you...if you just let us know how that is.

Also, since we, the Drupal community, are suppose to be one big happy/loving family, is it really so hard for you to send an acknowledgement that resume/application was received? Pretty simple automation.

[Sure, this outspoken post might cost me personally (for those who aren't interested in constructive criticism), but if it helps the greater good, so be it. That's how I roll.]

Comments

Also include the $/hr or Salary

Michael-IDA's picture

I'll add this as a tidbit for those hiring as well. Use as desired:

If you don't post a pay rate I won't bother looking further*. Nor will I apply, as it's a waste of my time.

One of the things a job poster indicates when they don't include a compensation figure is they are are looking for the lowest cost**, and don't care about quality. If a compensation figure is included, then you can be fairly sure they are looking for the highest quality they can get for that amount.

Complete ramble, but it amazes me that a client will blow $60k and 6 months, because they accepted the lowest bid, <$5k, to do the most detailed aspect of a project, when the whole project should have been $25k in 6 weeks. You get what you pay for.

Best Regards,
Sam

PS: Second that automated reply. We're in IT people, a simple auto responder is beyond your firm's skill set?

  • I actually search on "$," if it's not in the post, I don't read it. Seriously, there are enough jobs out there, why should a job applicant waste their time trying to figure out your job specs?

** You might as well have posted on eLance or oDesk, you can get some stellar, spam form application, quality there for $6-7 bucks an hour.

Some people don't like to

greta_drupal's picture

Some people don't like to state a specific number, but why not at least a range with the ol' flex statement "based on experience".

P.S. - Check your spam folders!

greta_drupal's picture

P.S. -- Especially when you will be receiving emails from "strangers", after posting job announcement, do check your Spam folders. Job posters sometimes are adamant about "no phone calls", so makes it hard to respectfully follow up on sent emails.

If you want us to jump through hoops, hire us so that we can jump through hoops for a really good reason. Testing us with can-they-crack-the-mysterious-application-process seems counterproductive. Help me help you, Rod.

posting salary - request for suggestions

Kelly Coulter's picture

Hey all - this is a very helpful string. I have a job posted for a Senior Developer right now (http://groups.drupal.org/node/200308) and I will be posting another for a User Experience Specialist soon. It's a great job for the right person - we are willing to consider a remote worker, we are a library which means there won't be a lot of overtime, and the project is very high profile and high impact. But I am getting no qualified candidates.

I do NOT have a salary posted, and I will tell you why. I am having a really hard time internally convincing HR that a senior developer costs upwards of $95K a year. So we posted with no range attached, hoping to hire at between $70K and $85K. One of the reasons I agreed to this approach was because I want to gather salary requirements from qualified candidates (in the US of course) and show those to the internal road blocks that be.

I would love to hear any suggestions from this group on making this posting more appealing. I want to conduct interviews at DrupalCon, but I need some applicants!! Thanks for your input.

So as not to detract from

greta_drupal's picture

So as not to detract from this post with a comment about specific job announcement, commenting to you offlist, via Drupal.org contact.

Hi Kelly, I agree with Greta,

Michael-IDA's picture

Hi Kelly,

I agree with Greta, but later today I'll go review your job app and add a comment to it. But I'll include some links here on salary costs that you, or any other hiring manager, can use with HR.

Best,
Sam

Legalize: I am not affiliated, or have financial blah, blah, blah, with any of the below.

Reference Job Listings:

3 Month Contract - Lead PHP Drupal Developer $75-100/hr | Stonyfield Farm
http://groups.drupal.org/node/71398

[$80-$90/hr. Local]
Sr. Drupal Developer-Baltimore, MD | Emergent360
http://groups.drupal.org/node/168044

Drupal Consultant $75-85/hr | Talener Group
http://groups.drupal.org/node/101954

6 Drupal Engineering roles in NYC: Contract to $70/hr, Full-time $110-130k | Talener Group
http://groups.drupal.org/node/73823

Sr. PHP Drupal Developer - 2 year contract | Major TV Network Needs Sr. PHP Developer-New York City- 2 year contract 65 hr.-75 hr corp
http://groups.drupal.org/node/180449

Drupal Developer for Marketing Agency $50-80/hr | Talener Group
http://groups.drupal.org/node/166354

A major Broadcasting Network seeks a Web Project Manager (Drupal) 65 HR New York City | Emerging Technical Search
http://groups.drupal.org/node/173489

Twelve (12) Drupal jobs: FT to $125k, Contract to $65/hr | Talener Group
http://groups.drupal.org/node/149879

Drupal PHP Technical Lead-Full Time-$100K+ | David Hite Executive Recruiting, LLC
http://groups.drupal.org/node/207688.

Software Engineer (Drupal 7) $70-90k/y or $50-70/hr + Bonus + Stock | Vibio
http://groups.drupal.org/node/140389

Okay, one can't post a

Michael-IDA's picture

Okay, one can't post a comment to a Job post. Learn something new everyday.

Using items from Kelly's post, but trying to keep this related to Greta's post, so that's it applicable to all job posters*:

  • Your asking for one person to be both front-end and backend.

They are different mindsets, and rarely overlap in the same individual, and if someone says they are both, run. (Okay, I'm sure there is that one in a million, but I've yet to see anyone who can tune an SQL query and make spinning, bouncing baby widgets with JQuerry.)

  • "Please note: This is NOT the official job announcement. You may receive and invitation to officially apply for the job at a later time."

You get one shot for your item to be read. You told everyone to not bother. Edits after the fact don't get it re-read. And I don't know how to put it politely, "You may receive an invitation..." is snobbery (and amusingly syntactically wrong, especially coming from a highly literate employer).

tldr: 1) Don't post until you can take resumes. 2) Have two separate people edit your job rec.

  • 37.5 hours a week?

Will it bother you that I'm working other job(s) as well? I understand from your point of view this is a benefit, and yes, I've been a consultant since the mid-90s, so I'm probably not of the proper 'perm' mindset, but you're telling me that, "the pay sucks, cause we aren't asking you to work much."

  • Wanting a Senior developer in a city of 400,000.

This isn't specific to Kelly's post, but unless there are nice amenities within usable distance, you're not going to get top notch respondents.

  • Wanting someone who has churned out Drupal sites for years on end for ~$80k/yr.

Taken. They get $90 an hour in New York. That's $180K/year if they only work 40 hours per week. Many senior developers I know, farm out living BS (laundry, cooking, cleaning, grocery shopping, etc.) and work an extra 10 hours or 20 hours a week ($225k/yr and $270k/yr). It's not hard to fit the odd hour, or two, in after the kids are in bed or before the spouse gets up in the morning.

#

The first and last two items are probably why you aren't getting qualified applicants. It's not to say you can't fill the job rec, but it will take awhile to find the person who has the skills, who doesn't want the pay scale they can get somewhere else.

All the best to you,
Sam

  • Hey David, want to create a wiki page for stuff like this? "Pros / Cons for various styles of Job Posting?"

There's room for everyone

kabarca's picture

Here's the other side of the coin. I represent a company with +15 devs in Costa Rica and even though more than 60% of our workforce are Drupal Ninjas (Senior) we mostly apply for jobs that don't have a compensation figure since we already know there's a disadvantage for us to compete in the higher rates field (at least for now). Note that our rate is higher than $35.

That said:
1. Do I think it is a bad practice to post a job with no $ in it? NO!
2. Some kind of filtering is needed so users posting jobs don't get all kind of random unknown individuals, companies and third party agencies offering their services at $5, $10 or $20? YES! (but that is a whole new subject).

  • I agree that a response should be sent to applicants (an auto response should do it). But then it goes back to #2 :)

Kabarca

Hi Kabarca, Yeah,

Michael-IDA's picture

Hi Kabarca,

Yeah, unfortunately not being US or western Europe based will squish your rate. Nothing wrong with living there, but your fellow country persons won't demand the rate US based employees demand, so you're fighting an uphill battle to achieve parity.

As one tip on your point #2, I when I'm on the other side of the table, I always ask for a drupal.org username to be submitted with the application. Makes it very easy to filter out the cruft.

Best,
Sam

well, it takes some time for

windmaomao's picture

well, it takes some time for any one or company to get into the market. rate under $20 just means two things,

1) the developer might be less experienced
2) the client doesn't have money

IMO it has nothing to do with the quality of the work, $45 - $55 doesn't mean you'll get quality work. This is very subjective, depending on how well the funding source, and the expectation from both sides.

But don't devalue the field

greta_drupal's picture

But, an experienced developer has no business working for $20 an hour. Else, they devalue the field and hurt everyone -- even themselves, eventually.

If an employer wants to take a chance on a newbie at $20 an hour, that is their choice. And, they might get lucky. But, once a person has some experience, they need to raise their rate to stay in the range of others in their skill set...for the stability of the job field.

Different rate for nonprofits

greta_drupal's picture

I do have a different, lower rate for nonprofit organizations. I consider that an acceptable rate compromise. And, I do often not bill some hours, for nonprofits. But, I show those hours at $0 rate on the invoice to denote the 'charitable contribution', so that client gets a realistic picture of the project scope.

windmaomao, I can only I

Michael-IDA's picture

windmaomao,

I can only I agree with you on point 1 and I heartily disagree with you on:

$45 - $55 doesn't mean you'll get quality work

If you pay someone to be an expert, you fire them immediately if they aren't. The client does have to be able to hire appropriately, but if they can't, they need to hire a headhunter to do it for them.

Best,
Sam

PS: Sorry for spamming everyone yesterday. Don't edit your posts to fix typo's :)

thanks for your feedback

Kelly Coulter's picture

Thanks so much for your feedback on my post. Stings a little, but it's accurate. I appreciate your time so much.

new posting

Kelly Coulter's picture

at the risk of being obnoxious I wanted to follow up and close the circle by sending my updated job announcement. Of course, I am still very open to input and feedback

http://groups.drupal.org/node/215698

Nicely done!

greta_drupal's picture

Nicely done! http://groups.drupal.org/node/215938

Clearly, they've no openings for copy writers. Darn!

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