This past week, I was in a google+ hangout with a group of very tech savvy individuals. To my surprise they were having a discussion concerning Drupal.
One person in the group works for the City of Austin which is a drupal site. He said they have full time developers and are very happy. Two other people in the group stated they were both in the process of having their sites rebuilt with wordpress because they need a website that the "average" employee could use. The cost factor was also brought up as smaller businesses can not afford the original developer or hire someone to just maintain their site.
Is Drupal the right cms for a business that can not afford on-going maintenance or development. Do you see this as a common issue and should we be more focused on usability? I would appreciate your thoughts and suggestions on the matter.
Comments
Drupal and the Small Business
Well, if you put it like this then there is no CMS for small businesses that can not afford maintenance and upgrading.
A CMS, no matter which CMS, needs maintenance, at least to secure it from new threats. That will automatically result in upgrading since old versions are not maintained for ever.
So the question is not is Drupal to expensive but can we afford a CMS?
The other question (or may be most important) is how can we streamline procedures and for example use templates to make Drupal a financially more attractive choice?
My 2 Cents
I agree Rob, we need to ask the right question. Small businesses need to fully understand the investment they are making and that it's never a one time deal, its ongoing! It's really an education process that we as developers/consultants need to do a better job at. Regular ongoing maintenance of the website code both for functionality and security is far less time consuming and expensive if done regularly. We all know it's much easier to update a few modules every few months than it is to do every module + core once a year.
The big difference I hear between Drupal and Wordpress (disclaimer: never done Wordpress) is the scalability. I've heard several Drupal devs tell clients they will never go through the pain of starting them off on Wordpress and invariably having to convert to Drupal later. Once a client gets a taste of a powerful CMS like Drupal, they will always want more functionality and WP can quickly be outgrown. Factor in those costs and it far exceeds the initial, often more expensive investment into Drupal.
I'd like to remind everyone that there is a very cost effective Drupal solution for the budget minded: http://drupalgardens.com. For as little as about $100 year, you get both hosting and all maintenance updates since Acquia takes care of all that. The only downside is that you can only use the modules they give you so it's not completely scalable.
And to follow up on Rob's last point, I maintain that a well built Drupal site is only as good as it's ease of use. If I hand off a site to a client and they can't easily maintain their own content after training them, I have failed in my job in providing them an effective business solution.
JCL
Educating, yes, but that is
Educating, yes, but that is not so simple, in my experience a lot of small businesses compare the prices and tend to choose between a static HTML site or a complete template based Wordpress site.
It is a matter of price, here a lot of designers offer template based Wordpress sites and do not bother about maintaining or updating the CMS. In this way Wordpress is obviously cheap.
My guess is if maintaining the CMS is taken seriously there will not be much price difference between Wordpress and Drupal, it is the way of doing business that makes the difference.
Yes I had a look at Drupal Gardens, it is to limited for me but it is a cheaper alternative.
What do you consider maintenance?
The problem with the basic question is there is no definition of maintenance cost. What is meant by "hire someone to just maintain their site"? Are the referring to the software maintenance, the content maintenance, or something else?
Regarding the first, as the preceding person stated user stated is required to keep the site secure. And yes, at some point you will need to upgrade to the new version of Drupal. However, that is something that manage can and should include in the annual budgets. That being said, I though I read somewhere that 1/2 of webform's 240,000 users are on Drupal 6 or prior. And Drupal 8 is a year or so away. So the security issue does not appear to be a huge issue otherwise 1/2 of webform's users would not still be on Drupal 6.
Secondly, there is the cost of maintaining the web site's content. The cost to add new content and keep the site fresh can been very expensive. If the user wants it updated daily, they are looking at 2 to 4 hours (or more) of someone's time. This is 25% to 50% of an employee's time, which can add up pretty quick.
And these are just some of the maintenance cost, but they are probably the most expensive ones.
Without being more specific with respect to which maintenance cost are being discussed, it is impossible to know if the cost would be lower using something like Wordpress.
Dennis
Clarify?
Dennis, I'm a little confused about your stats on Webform. There are still regular security patches for Webform on D6, there is no reason to upgrade to D7 at this time.
JCL
Clarify
The point I was trying to make is just because a new version of Drupal or a module comes out does not mean that you have to upgrade to it.
Dennis
I think you're asking the
I think you're asking the wrong questions and looking at the wrong markets.
There are always going to be companies that say they cannot afford even a modest amount of money for website that really fits their needs. You won't be able to sway them, and if you could, they would want something for, fundamentally, nothing.
The real untapped market is the corporate one. Most major corporations employ off-the-shelf solutions that cost a fortune -- and offer little opportunity for customization -- and only at great cost.
The problem is that most major companies are resistant to the very concept of open source. That's largely a matter of corporate IT departments wanting to protect their job security -- but it is a huge and untapped market.
tk
Customer's potential budget
I think Tom has a valid point about some small businesses.
During one marketing call, I determined that the company (5 people) was not backing up their data. I suggested they use Mozy, Cabonite, or purchase a Network Access Storage device with some decent back up software. Approximate cost was about $10 to $30 a month.
That was too much for them. I pointed out that if they lost the disk drive on the main computer, they would loose all of their accounting / billing information, customer information, etc. The cost to recover would be exceeding high. The owner said the computer was very reliable and saw no need to spend the money.
I decided that this company was not one that I would want to have as a customer.
Bottom line, as part of the analysis process, you should develop a projected development and annual maintenance cost estimates. The customer should be fully aware of all projected cost prior to any development effort. They can then decide if they want to spend the money.
Dennis
Dennis
Build/Sell them a TRUCK....
Drupal isn't for every business, it is simply not a perfect fit for every situation. Nor is it one size fits all kind of thing.
Take a Truck - yes a Truck - if you want a truck that you can deliver your goods with - advertise with, etc... a multipurpose vehicle... and you go to someplace that sells trucks - they will show you all manner of trucks big and small, or maybe you search the internet, put in all your requirements and filters, etc... so you can find the truck you want in the budget you want the color you want, the engine you want, the size you want and so on on and on.... well gosh golly gee whiz kiddo it sure is easy to get that truck the way you want it new, used, certified, warranty, service plan and so -
WELL KIDS - you have to find a way to provide the customer with that TRUCK!
No your not a used car salesman(or woman) but you are a sales person. You are selling your services, your skills and such....
A Truck like a website - lets a customer deliver goods - even if that is just information about there company, but really it can deliver anything the big difference is your going to BUILD that TRUCK to there SPECIFICATIONS, provided you can quantify them in such a way that both you and the customer understand what it is they are getting and how it matches with there needs/wants and expectations.
Do they want one with the life time oil changes, tire rotations and bumper to bumper warranty with car washes and paint butler?
Or do they want no frills, used, cheap, no service plan, no warranty, as is, where is?
Seriously - last time you shopped for a vehicle what was your criteria? Did you get what you wanted? What you needed? What you expected? How did it meet your needs when you got it? How well does it match your needs now? Did you know exactly what you wanted? Did you have a budget? And finally JUST HOW did you find and buy that vehicle - word of mouth some site on the internet? Drove buy it? Visit a few car lots?
You have to be all kind of things from Adviser to Sherpa to Salesperson... and in the process help them help you help them... yes its like that, you help them help themselves so that you can deliver what they expect and everyone is happy!
So about that TRUCK
Hot Rod? Rat Rod? Mini Truck, Full Size? Commercial Truck?
HTML? WordPress, Drupal?
I recently bought a Truck - I needed a Truck for hauling and towing. Didn't care about color, didn't care about quite a few things. I wanted it to run, drive and have some measure of reliability but mostly I wanted and old classic or antique and I figured I would add anything it didn't have within my budget. What did I end up with?
A 1968 C10 Stepside that sports a mean 350 with a 4 speed on the floor and is great for scaring small animals, children and the elderly because its both FAST and LOUD! It is not practical but it is loads of fun and I can tow and haul things with it- will it fit my future needs - maybe, maybe not - but being the industrious person "I am" I think of it like a foundation with the right modular approach and the proper INVESTMENT of time, energy and money I can MODIFY it to suit most any purpose.
NO it didn't come with everything I mentioned, but I modified it and it is a work in progress - I can drive it, race it, haul, tow and work on it as it suits me...
See in my case I am a gear head - your customers are likely to not be gear heads or IT geeks, wiz kids, or otherwise well versed in web technology. That is where you come in...
You can tweak a lot of basic stuff with HTML and CSS, toss in a little flavor or bling and call it done - Big wheels and tires? Lift Kit? Lowering kit?
Customers can pay some person at some point to customize or modify there website if they are so inclined - but in some cases the foundation for those modifications well frankly - it would be a waste of money... potentially a lot of wasted money to dress up a worthless wreck and never get what they want or need out of it.
Just like you can spend a lot of money on something they will never need...or use, there is also the cost to value aspect of the sale - customers don't always get what they pay for in the way of value to cost.
If you come along after someone else did them wrong from there perspective -that makes your job that much harder.
PERSPECTIVE is critical - even if the issue was communication they may even have gotten what they asked for, but it could be miles away from what they need or expected.
They could also want the moon, but can only afford a moonpie... its up to you to figure all that out, including as Dennis mentioned if you want them as a customer.
REQUIREMENTS gathering... is CRITICAL!
Here is a few links you may find of use (DRUPAL RELATED):
http://youtu.be/JI58gv0li9w (The Dark Arts of Business Analysis: Requirements Gathering with Mind Maps for Drupal)
The PDF that goes with the video:
http://lab4.com.au/sites/default/files/content/requirements_gathering_wi...
MOHMOUD FROM Egypt
hello to all at first,how i can use this site,help i need know to can search about my chance,please help...................................
Sorry for the time
Sorry for the time difference. I'm kinda new, but I'm , glad to help if I can.
Just post a specific question here, and folks will try to give you a hand.
What are you trying to track down?
tk
The owner said the computer
Wow. Somebody is going to learn a very painful lesson some day.
--
Digital Frontiers Media
Lots of very interesting
Lots of very interesting points and all of them valid. I have worked for companies where WP and similar cms sites were designed and turned over with the understanding that the businesses would do 100% of their own maintenance. They were provided a "help" file and sent on their way. Most of them were fine with it as the sites were simple enough.
Perhaps, the small business that has outgrown their wordpress site is now turning to drupal. They are coming to us with the expectation that a Drupal site will be as cheap and easy to maintain as their wordpress site. Just as the "infamous" learning curve for drupal developers, there is also a learning curve for a business switching over. If they were not educated on the differences such as maintenance,cost, or usability, I could definitely see why they would be unhappy or perhaps in a state of shock when they realize it.
Another interesting point was brought up that maybe we are targeting the wrong market. Should drupal be marketed primarily toward larger businesses and corporations?
p.s. I am just simply using WP as an example but could be any cms or static site.
Look at this article!
I found this article while blogging for work today. It has an average breakdown of costs involved for different cms. Very interesting
http://agbeat.com/tech-news/what-is-a-cms-outlining-details-of-the-diffe...
I've got some questions about
I've got some questions about their figures. They don't tell us anything about how they arrived at them, and some seem off: the install base for drupal, for example, seems very low compared to what I see quoted elsewhere. And they never explain what their figures mean: $1,000-$2,000 a month in maintenance costs for drupal sites? That's a chunk of change and I can't see how it's justified as an "average."
And what about $5K-$50K for average site setup fees? If that's really the case, someone is making a LOT of money off of Drupal.
I think this article probably gives a better-reasoned look at the top three CMSs: http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9219685/Site_builder_shootout_Dru...
tk
it looks like they have setup
it looks like they have setup fees confused with initial build and design time - at least that's the way it appears to me
but the maintenance fees between $1000.00 and $2000.00 doesn't seem too far out there, it is still cheaper than a full time employee
A few things come to mind
A few things come to mind here.
Drupal isn't difficult for a small business to maintain. It is more difficult to set up than wordpress though.
I see two possible reasons for the small business' frustrations, and the large business satisfaction.
Before giving up on Drupal completely, I would analyze their needs and find out what isn't working for them. If they just want a blog that they can manage themselves, wordpress might be better for them. If they want more than that though, or may want more than that later, Drupal is definitely much better suited for that task.
I wouldn't hand an "average" employee a site and expect them to install modules or manage fields. I would hand them a site and expect them to be able to add content and manage users though.
Maintenance of $1000 to $2000 still seems pretty high. This might include full-hosting, and if it does, my client's Amazon bill tops almost $3000 a month. That is for quite a few servers though.
For What It is Worth
I have operated a consultancy business for > five years now. I have a set rate for hours and enough experience to know how long several different products take me to complete. So, I can bid a job as "Time and Materials" (T&M) or by the deliverable products that the client and I agree on. I am in violent agreement with the comments by the Drupalists here about the care needed to be taken by the developer and the client to determine what the client wants and will pay for. Further, the observation that one of us made that a delivered Drupal site that is 'maintainable' by the client means that the client can confidently and securely input, delete, and manipulate the site's content and access, period.
Some remarks
The AGBeat article, I do not see any substantiation of the cost. Maintaining the Drupal installation can not be that expensive, even a core update takes no more then an hour worst case.
Maintaining the content can not be such a difference between the different CMS systems, in fact it should make no difference at all.
The Computerworld article makes more sense and I do not have the impression that the author needed substantial more time = money for Drupal compared to Wordpress and Joomla.
@twodances: Maybe we should "sell them a truck" and let the client decide about maintenance, hosting etc, if we combine that with template based websites we could be more competitive.
In that case we have to make clear our clients that returning to us with update and hosting problems result in extra cost.
WDLC and Process
Well since we are talking about not just requirements gathering, but the full gambit of things including implementation and maintenance, and a few other things.
I thought I would share a good article on Requirements Gathering and Change Management it includes a great little DILBERT cartoon as well.
http://www.artofbi.com/index.php/2010/03/requirements-gathering-change-m...
While the Article in question is about Software and Database projects (SDLC), the information applies to websites and well frankly any project that involves delivering something like a Drupal Site based on customer requirements.
There is also some good links to addition tools and information most of which is free.
While this will be overkill for most people - the concepts apply to websites, just like systems and software: http://opensdlc.org/mediawiki/index.php?title=Main_Page
Here are some more practical(easier to digest) sites - Website Development Lifecycle (WDLC) related:
http://www.gemfindwebdesign.com/brouchers/web-development.pdf
http://www.kdmi.ca/web-development-mainmenu-26/web-design-process-mainme...
Great stuff here - though it's focus is how this all relates to SOA - Service Oriented Architecture - which by the way is spot on with what we do - Though it is not Drupal Specific: http://cabibbo.dia.uniroma3.it/ids/pdf/t03-ws_development_lifecycle.pdf
http://www.tdtsolutions.com/web-development-life-cycle
This one touches on both the lifecycle and marketing - something critical to most of us - http://www.techconnect.vi/docs/web_marketing_presentation.pdf
Object Orientated Web Application Development - http://www.srtechgroup.com/oo_web.pdf
Forum Post - I recommend reading this it is rather old (2005) but relevant: http://www.abestweb.com/forums/midnight-cafe-11/website-development-life...
A shot doc - that can be used as a template for outlining a project:
http://www.leonamarant.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/WebProjectLifecycl...
and the accompanying diagram:
http://www.leonamarant.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/WebProcessDiagram.pdf
Ok so my point with posting all this - "we" have to be educated and versed in the entire project process - in most cases you wear all the hats, you are the salesman, the project manager, the developer, and so on and on - so you need to understand the full process and in my opinion treat each project as just that a project - you can of course shorten the process to suit the needs of you and your customer, but you should still have a process, even if it is abbreviated that you follow.
This should include documentation, and some form of contract that you use to protect you and the customer. They should be signing off on both the requirements document and the sales/service agreement - they agree to pay you x for services rendered/product delivered - that meets y requirements.
If you get real serious about it, they should be signing off on product while its still in the staging environment - that is of course assuming you could develop it and present it to them before final deployment (going live). If they want changes outside the scope of your agreement - well have a method for that - and a cost.
I do this with software and web applications, most companies do. I will skip the lecture on CMMI and ITIL, but if you interested google those.
Do I think you need to be some kind of ISO, CMMI or ITIL compliant? No - but you can take some good stuff away from those processes.
Yes you can fly by the seat of your pants - but that leads to a lot of grief Sooner or Later...
I tend to agree with Ben for one - about what may have happened with those customers. I think there was a lot of problems with understanding and communication, and pershaps a lack of experience on the part of the Drupal developer.
In short I think while not every customer will always be satisfied (they won't) you can rest assured that if you have a process that you follow and that ensures that all parties understand what is required and what will be delivered and you deliver that then you are providing a good dependable service.
But you should allow for changes - but avoid SCOPE creep and the like. Depending on what you build and for whom - you may need to make changes - that they should pay for, unless you are at fault - this comes back to proper process!
For the record I hate ITIL and CMMI and I prefer to Code and develop and let someone else deal with all the grief for process, documents and the like - but I have never been at leisure to do that, even when working for myself. YOU REALLY CANT afford not to have a process of some kind that includes proper documentation and requirements gathering.
The instructor in our class on Drupal Made some seriously good points about, whipping stuff together (rapid prototyping) for purposes of demonstrating or showing a customer something - this would be part of the sales part of your job - educating your customers on both what you can do and what drupal can do - it also helps with speaking the same language or being on the same page.
So too does finding out if they have a vision/idea of what the site should look like or know of a site that they have seen that is close to there vision.
In other words the more tools you can bring to bear and the greater your mutual understanding of what is required - the better!!
In some cases you may find that Drupal isnt the right fit, maybe a simple HTML page is, but regardless of what they need - if they need something - well then you might be in a position to fill that need - you may or may not be doing it with Drupal - but Ideally you would be using Drupal. That discover and evaluation is part of the process, the whole process.