eConsultant is leading SA Drupal

Events happening in the community are now at Drupal community events on www.drupal.org.
kayMasukela's picture

Comments

Awesome!

riaan burger's picture

I'm so happy that that tender went to a Drupal shop! Congratulations eConsultant.

Our own estimate for the work on that tender was around R 12mil and we had to work on it together with another company.

Looking forward to seeing the new website. Do you have an estimate for when it will be completed?

Congratulations ! Rock on !

amjad1233's picture

Hi There,

This is amazing Drupal is moving to .gov in South Africa.

I am an Australian Developer just moved here for www.emergingstars.com. The site was on WordPress, I transferred it to Drupal and made it amazing with all Drupal coolness(8 custom modules in total). The stunning thing is I can't believe I transferred almost 56,000 plain WordPress posts into Drupal content types with Taxonomies and Language stuff, that tells us what drupal is capable of.

For the Drupalars, I was wondering if someone from the Group can guide me for my "little" business www.eshockit.com. I have general networking queries only.

Many Australian local government websites runs Drupal and I am very positive about South Africa. I am also available for any help my South African Portfolio is www.emergingstars.com. You may visit and see "Registration", complex customizations and views I have used. work will speak itself.

Any help would be appreciated. Rock on Africa !

Vulcan nerve pinch

Anonymous's picture

12 mil + hey for a government website. So glad to see that our tax payers money is not being wasted on free and open source projects to represent our country online.. Oh no wait ..

Kudos to the marketers who no doubt can talk so much shit, it makes the american government look like mumbling armless children.

Just to put this retardation into perspective, a google software engineer gets paid $146,280 which is R1 445 768.84. Which means you could hire 8 senior google developers for a year to build this site. Of course these developers are working on patented algorithms that run arguably artificial intelligence through some of the fastest custom build networks in the world to deliver close to instantaneous result sets for a company that is trading 2,267,000 on average volume in markets around the world. So i am not sure that they would want to work on basic / primitive php scripts.

Wtf ..

god help you if i cannot control the SALT through this website!!!!!!!!!!!

How the f#$k can you justify this shit! seriously HTF? I know of large custom built POS systems that do not even come close to this much. I know developers who might not ever make anything close to this amount of money in their lifetime and they could probably code around anyone on this forum till their get so dizzy the fall over due to the inherent kluge's. heck i dont even think Merlin of chaos has made this sort of money and i have no doubt you are going to be using his module FOR FREE YOU BASTARDS.

And all this after we found out the free states site was R40 Mil. Its a joke .. this is twilight zone shit.

And here you are posting it on d.o like , what ... you want a fucking handshake for taking our tax money. Well done you kunts.

*faceplam ... i hate this country

Passionate, but not accurate.

jpoesen's picture

Whoa, nothing if not passionate.

However, let's put a few things in context.

  1. It's not because someone else quoted R12 million that the company who won this contract quoted R12 million. The winning quote is R2.7 million.

If you had read the actual RFP you'd seen that part of the requested services is 1440 hours of support spread over 2 years. I don't know the eConsultant rates but if we go with a conservative R650 / hr that totals R936,000. Let's say R950,000.

That leaves 1,750,000 for the rest of the project, being:
- full functional description of 2 sites
- migrating all content out of the SUN Solaris / BSD / Oracle environment
- building the new site with support for 11 languages
- documenting
- training
- hosting

For argument's sake let's say Acquia hosting is chosen, and we go with a conservative mid-range offer (2core, 7GB RAM, 100GB storage) Acquia Cloud Pro account. This is priced at R6000 / month. That makes R72,000 for 1 year of hosting. Note we're not even talking about a specific custom server architecture here or hard set Service Level Agreements.

That leaves R880,000 for all analysis, building, design, data migrations, deployment workflows, training and documentation.

At a conservative (I think) R4000 / day that leaves 220 man days. Noting that 20 to 40% of a project's time is project management, communication and overhead, let's stick to 25%.

That leaves 165 man days.

2 weeks to write documentation, 1 week to prepare training + training materials, 2x 1 week of training. That leaves 140 days.

1 week to analyse, 3 weeks to write functional specs and user stories, discuss with client, rework, etc. That leaves 120 days.

4 weeks for wireframes, story boards, design validations, mockups with final design. Leaves 100 days.

This amount of migrating data from various sources (flat text, html, databases in different systems) in various languages and character sets: you can easily spend at least 2 man months on this alone.

That leaves 60 days.

1/3 (20days) for building the theme, 1/3 for building the site, 1/3 for various user testing?

Seriously, if anything this project is undersold, not oversold.

Note: dreadfully optimistic estimations here. Should be doubled, if not trippled.

That was Quick!

riaan burger's picture

jpoesen... that took me three long days to do, though perhaps with a "few" more cells in a couple of spreadsheets and knowledgeable people ;-)

Even at the R12mil figure I was a little worried (though not that much in the end) that there will be hidden gremlins and unexpected client expectations.

Timothy.sea's post is great for lending itself to such a great reply as your own here. Thanks you very much.

Back when I was a young developer all on my own, I was irregularly exposed to the higher-end commercial industry and, perhaps like Timothy.sea (but with sweater words) I stood aghast at the cost thrown about for even small, but high-spec websites.

I've come a long way learning how much time goes into a client relationship, great team communication and all the other items that make for a superb project. It's not just these non-development items that make up a good solution though. There's non-coding stuff like decent UX and testing (this quote was big on testing), responsiveness that doesn't stop at a responsive front page but carries through the full experience, loads small things to consider like making sure we don't leak South African visitor information to a government site to third parties through tools like "Share this" ;-) and then there's the code... just getting a hot script done by an ace programmer isn't the whole issue, everything from the bus factor (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Bus%20Factor) to code review, dev, stage, production workflow and so on comes to play.

I'd be a little worried about the tender amount right now, thinking it is a great deal if it goes well for our South African taxpayers... just worried that it is a little low. I'm a tax payer too of course. And that was a constant topic in our discussions when we were working on the cost estimate.

This is no off-the-shelf Wordpress site sold for millions. This is a bespoke development. Our rates are indeed lower than those Google guys' ;-)

lol .. i totally read the R37

Anonymous's picture

lol .. i totally read the R37 645 099.33 figure just below it. The free state site still pisses me off though. Pure rape of tax money.

"Supply, Installation and Commissioning of Furniture for the new GCIS head office : R16 703 503.44"

my god ... i think they are just redirecting the corruption based on what sector the people find out about.

Apology

jpoesen's picture

You might want to apologize to the people you insulted and be thankful you're not banned from d.o. for this.

This community is the awesome place it is because usually it does not have the behavior you displayed.

Thanks.
J.

┌∩┐(◣_◢)┌∩┐

Anonymous's picture

┌∩┐(◣_◢)┌∩┐

What a Pity

riaan burger's picture

While your post did lend itself to all the readers here being exposed to more of the ideas of what a large website may cost and what may go into it. I'd have preferred even more that it also allowed you to consider it as a new insight. Sure hope you develop those awesome skills of yours more and find ways to contribute without such acrimony.

Pretty, ... Not!

Mily Gibson's picture

I thought that was a really cool alien looking peeking from behind a rock until I realised you're giving us the middle finger!

It's not rape if the money is

mckeen_greg's picture

It's not rape if the money is put to good use. The gov.za is an important website, and it should be done correctly. User Experience is important, just look at the current front page and try find what you are looking for.

Drupal is "Free" because it is Open Source is a bad opinion to hold and portrays the wrong idea to clients. Just because the software is "easier" to configure, and a lot of core "programming" is taken out of the scope of development, doesn't mean that there is No development. There's still Graphic Design, CSS, Usability, Navigation questions, etc. These things cost. Configuring Multilingual, adjusting the interface to be useful to content contributors, etc, etc etc.

However, before you carry on with a tirade as you have, you should have read through the specification. Then you need to consider the amount of potential back and forth required by the client to ensure all parties and stakeholders are on par. Then there are things inside that spec, such as Accessibility for the blind. Responsive design (not just adaptive). 11 languages interface as well as articles which need to be associated with each language, navigation etc.

Timothy you've illustrated bad form here. I think you've done a disservice to anyone who worked on this tender in different capacities, even those who did not win it.

A company won the tender based on their ability to deliver the site, with a preferable cost (as opposed to the other one of 12million). I worked through the tender myself, and I know there are many things which were not considered in the scope, as the creators/writers of the scope aren't aware of certain questions and complexities that all development houses should know about.

If an amazing site comes out of this, that presents the ability for Open Data and other platform integration, as well as a usable site, then I would say it is a tender well awarded. Open Source in government is a very good step forward for SA, and you should be proud instead of ashamed.

Fee difference?

Studira's picture

My humble question as a newcomer to this arena would be?

How come some have tendered R12M and others only R2.7M.....is their not some form of standard in project development that would direct tenderers to be more inline with each other? If their is such a big gap then is it that charging a client is a very subjective (rather than calculative) matter and I can go and charge my clients according to what I feel that day or what I think they can pay. That is worrisome because it confuse the client and it leave's a feeling that developers are not trustworthy in giving a genuine reflection of the actual costs?

Please if somebody on this forum can maybe give a decent breakdown or even better, maybe we should start a body that outlines standard pricing for the industry as a whole. I come from a photographic background and there I have seen exactly these kind of free market forces at play. Its messy because just imagine the range of that tender was around the R11-R12M mark, somebody then had made a decent enough profit and the community hopefully can benefit through them employing MORE developers and not less.

Maybe in SA we have got things a bit backwards by looking after small groups of individuals first rather than building LARGE communities of people that will bring longevity and constant growth to a marketplace where profit only rules.

As for the "derogatory" comments maybe to everyone on this forum just this question? How would a group know they are moving in the right direction if any "bad" criticism will be seen as alien. The group dynamics need to be shaped through those kind of people "good or bad" to allow a more focused kind of general view point. Lets live with the FREEDOM of speech and let we ALL learn from each other. A very wise man said once " I learn everyday and I sometimes learn from those I hate more than from those I love"

Ian Joubert
Alias:Studira
Email:studira@gmail.com

"If their is such a big gap

Mark Theunissen's picture

"If their is such a big gap then is it that charging a client is a very subjective (rather than calculative) matter and I can go and charge my clients according to what I feel that day or what I think they can pay"

This is called a "free market". You can charge whatever you like. That's why people will pay R20 for bottled water in a club, when the same water from a tap costs 0.01c.

This is not a unique problem for web development, and it's not possible to outline standard industry costs. Some development shops are highly efficient, others aren't. Small shops have less overhead than big ones. There are advantages and disadvantages and in some cases you get what you pay for, and other times you're ripped off.

Web development isn't a production line with very specific overheads and specific raw materials costs, etc. It's a craft. Costs vary wildly.

Completely agree Mark. Just

mckeen_greg's picture

Completely agree Mark.

Just today, I walked into a "Drupal Development" house to collect a website from them. The client has moved over to our 7 (currently) strong company with over 6 years of experience in the field, from theirs which has move than 30 developers. The offices were well done, the atmostphere enjoyable and the people friendly.

I had to collect the website, which they did not have ready. They needed to create a support ticket for the database to be extracted, codebase to be downloaded etc. I realised the situation would take over an hour, and so I left them with my harddrive.

Then came the shock and horror of the situation I was in.

Due to the hosting requirements, we need to deploy changes to their servers until the 1 month contract expires and they can issue support tasks etc to move the DNS, blah blah. This wasn't the issue. The issue was that I asked how we were to deploy. They said, I would receive FTP access. Coming from a very strong, linux only company, expecting SSH, I was left aghast, but this has happened before, so that is fine.

Then I asked about version control. I was told they only have version control on their development systems and not live. I couldn't and still don't understand this. If you have it for one system, why not extend to the rest? This is simple and changes your life forever. I can't imagine working without (what we are calling) our enterprise workflow. Essentially, Development -> Staging -> Live. Version controlled all the way. All content types, views, contexts, etc into Features. Merged from Dev branch into Staging, into Live. Deployed, Tested, Happy Clients, Good Systems.

And this is where the difference comes in. Some people know this, Some people dont. Some charge highly for inflated services, and others charge highly for services that deliver, even if that delivery is in the background. Trust me, your client knows when things break, and they blame you if you're coding on the live system, because you don't have a workflow.

There are other development houses that have these systems, and charge less. Perhaps the value equation is lost on them, or they only have clients that can only afford X. This is not our debate, as we don't have data.

What I am saying, is that I agree with Mark. It's a craft. Some build shitty paper aeroplanes and sell it as a Boeing, and others build Boeings and sell it as such. The market will flush these out, and yes, some clients get caught in the mix.

Setting up a body to dictate these terms is not the way to go. Educating each other on Standards and Expectations is one avenue to help all houses make better products, but then those houses would be sending people to Drupal meetups and we know that's not happening right now.

Not as Varied as it First Appears

riaan burger's picture

From the exposure I do have to a few other companies here rates do not vary as much as they first appear. They still do off course, with skill levels and sets. But hourly rates are not that hugely different.

Tenders are published and then you have specifications to work with. Different shops will assign different hours to those specification elements as best they can (that process can take days). If a project, for example, stipulates testing and reporting for the whole process then every single element from the first drafts to handing over an archive at the end of three years of a site that may have gone through several incarnations will be affected in terms of hourly requirements. But if the specification is not clear, shops need to make assumptions based on prior experience, best practices, their skills sets and the quality level of the project they intend to deliver.

Those things are to variable for a single solution. I tended to use Excel spreadsheets when I still used Windows. Switched to LibreOffice Calc for my current estimation sheets and for this specific estimate needed to use Google Docs Spreadsheets because it was more highly collaborative.

Some companies, notably Lullabot, publish their spreadsheets once in a while. I recall once when they did that I was quite chuffed at the parallels with my own which I made up as my company grew out of pure necessity.

The criticism wasn't just bad, it was not constructive. I'm so glad to see that we managed to take it in nicely though and turn it light and reply in informative ways in the end. When you think about it, as someone reading this group that may be slightly less communicative and hesitant about participation even just by posting to say hi, a combative post like that doesn't help at all, but the community response sure does. My happiness with being part of the Drupal community grows every day. You guys are super supportive, positive and helpful and somewhere I just have to always make a humble "thank you" known!

public string response

Anonymous's picture

1: 1440 hours of support. Generally companies in IT take request tickets and not fixed support hours. Prices are then evaluated based on the scope of the issue and the a predefined agreement regarding issues of application in production. Normally a certain amount of ticket requests are free and then a sub costing comes into play. What happens if there is NO support questions once in production? Its a bloody website for god sakes. And if the training and development is half decent which at 2.7 Mil i would hope it is, there should be little support.

2: Hosting. hmmm .. R6000.00 Of course it would make total sense to go with a company in America with our current exchange rate. Yes that would be an amazing idea .. to tell the client and use your own servers . Afrihost offers 4TB Traffic 8TB HD 12 vCPUS 32MB RAM dedicated server at R2490 pm( and lets be honest here .. they would not even need that type of server .. NOT EVEN CLOSE )

3: "you can easily spend at least 2 man months on this alone." .. well thats debatable. Considering the fact that neither of us know the amount of data.

4:"1/3 (20days) for building the theme, 1/3 for building the site, 1/3 for various user testing?" .. hmm... a bit dramatic here considering development starts once quote is approved, who the hell works in this way?

5: "Graphic Design, CSS, Usability, Navigation questions" // LOL!! Navigation questions wtf is that? css .. i could teach a monkey to write functional css. You web devs ( well im stretching the word dev here ) are another breed.

This has nothing to do with drupal and everything to do with the allocations of funds in this country that have a huge proportion living below the poverty line.

"It's not rape if the money is put to good use." .. I was referring to a website that cost 40 million to develop ( and this one to be quite honest ) , if you think that is a good way for our government to spend money in a country where just over 20% of the people have direct access to the bloody internet then you my friend .. you are smoking crack cocaine.

If ,financially this country was doing well then i would say f*&k yeah, more money !! but we not , the rand is slipping because, oh wait a sec, the world is just recovering from a global recession, and if anyone takes their head out of the sand for just one second you will see that this quantitative easing is only going to put more strain on governments the world over. And this shit that happens when people take advantage like this. It pisses the hell out of me, because it was this exact same shit , with the banks taking advantage of people with credit and the international rating agencies taking advantage of the ignorance of economies the world over.

Free and open source software is not about this. And i will rant on about this because this whole movement is being taking over but business dicks who see the potential of not having to spend a dime on software and still confusing the hell out of customers with big words like distributed denial of service..

We need to invest in the education of this country so that there are people who will be able to fucking read the information on the website. but no we must have a 3 hour meeting about navigation questions ><

Open source has ideologies in socialism whether you all like it or not. This is suppose to be a movement for change through technology , not another off shoot of hedonistic capitalism. All the server side software is free!! ALL OF IT !! And now you guys are prancing around about wire frames .

2.7 Mil .. I have seen extremely complex analysis programs , that are making companies millions of rand each year go for less then this.

Better.

jpoesen's picture

At least it' a step up from calling people cunts.

My estimate breakdown was done in 15 minutes to show the was not as far fetched as you made it seem - in my humble opinion.

I'm not going into debate about server requirements, data volume and the relative complexities of css - everyone estimates that according to their experience.

I agree with the other opinions voiced that estimations are hard. Complex projects such as these tend to get underestimated, especially by less experienced developers. The problem is that decision makers on the client side are often clueless so they easily fall for overestimations from dishonest companies.

A bidding process such as this serves to get a whole range of offers and to let a group of people decide using various criteria of which money is just one.

And finally:

I like to think that this forum and community is about technology and collaboration, not about politics, whatever side one takes. This is a place for constructive criticism. You rant about the bidding process being broken. How about a discussion on how it could be improved?

There is no ignorance, there is only knowledge

Anonymous's picture

The tender process in South Africa and in a lot of "democratik" countries is very broken. And excuse me, but there is not a way around discussing the tender process without talking about politics so if anyone wants to carry on with their module development and pure basic technology discussions then the rest this is of no value.

I do apologize for my abusive response, /but in my defense i did think the amount was a lot more then it was and certain biological functions are removed under realization of such a matter. I still to this day can not help myself from incoherently repeating the twilight theme song in my head when i think about the free state's website cost.

Tendering rabbit hole

First and for most, government officials should not be able to, by law, hold any position in any other organization while in service and in retirement. They are public servants, in their position , voted by the people to serve, not to dehumanise. It is human nature it be invested in processes that determines your worth, and in this capitalistic society, that worth is measured by your salary. The inevitable consequence is an invested interest in small groups of people ( ie private companies ) and not the interest and well being of the society at large. This very act is in opposite with the ideologies of Plato's republic and the inherent tenets of democracy, where first and and foremost come the upliftment of humans through education, health and security. These principles do not exists and the collusion of private companies and government have turned a productive and contributing process into a proactive way in which to enrich small groups of well connected people under the illusion of a righteous free market.

The tender process should be an analysis ( which is not hard now a days with the likes of google , and even more so with a piece of software written by Palantir, with just this software the government would become more productive in every area as long as they invest in education , which they seem to care very little for ) program based on real data, from various sources , and by various .. i mean a lot.

Obviously, outside consulting from companies within the broader area of expertise that have no interest or do not qualify for the tender. And not just one or two .. but a few.This makes perfect sense in a proper free market where there is large competition ... one word ... Telkom *sigh. In this case (the tender concerning ) if it was put forward with the government in guise of a private company and went to various web development firms i can right now guarantee that this would not have cost more then R500 000. And if you have a lobbyist with a IT background that price could come down to R350.000 . I have seen this happen on more then one occasion. But its the government .. easy push overs hey. Try that shit with any accounting firm .. i dare you. You will spend nights just trying to understand the contract you just signed, with legal jargon that would be somewhat understandable if we still spoke latin.

Tenders should be ( and maybe i am being a neive idealist ) treated with the same regard as a criminal investigation. The work that companies do for the government will either make or break a system and that could even mean a new government ( unfortunately that is not so much the case in this country ). This has happened in Europe because the government was in bed with the banking system and once the people who control the flow of money also become the same people who regulate it , you are stuck with egos that are so far gone in mental delusions of omniscience that pure reason and logic disappear almost completely.

Take our glorious president. He has officially stated that he used 70 million rand of his personal money on his stately security upgrade in a recent interview with the BBC. He should not have access to this amount of money, not while there are reports of the like we see in this country. Highest HIV AIDS infection rate, one of the worse serious crime rates per capita and recently was given the 1 spot according to Oxfam in the inequality between the rich and poor.

But lets take a look at the this current tender of 2.7 Mil for an internet service in a country with an unemployment rate of 25% ( yes money well spent , very well spent indeed ) that is basically a service to provide as an information portal. No revenue streams ( well not that i am aware of ) Now although they have removed their client list from their website it is a pretty well know fact that this company (eCon) as done but a few government based websites, least we forget the infamous "official" soccer world cup site. There is no doubt (and i could probably easily prove it ) that there is a cozy relationship between the government and this company. Which is good .. i am not saying it is bad, its is very good that drupal is being used in government. However , how fair is it during such an important tender process when a company that has well know relations with the government for the other companies involved and for a justified outcome? When you know that those two will be sharing drinks later and the smooth talker, mixed with a bit of 1984 kwv, will start mumbling on about facebook and twitter comparisons. The court of law has a term for this. It is called a conflict of interest. With that said any proven information of conflict of interest in any tendering process should leave the process null and void and a fine given to the politician who handed out the tender ( not necessarily the actual official whom the conflict of interest is with )

With 2.7Mil the government could have setup a educational project to teach a group of very motivated and very poor school leavers ( of which there are many black and white .. and indian and colored!! ) , maybe even hiring econ to train them, in web development using the drupal CMS. I dont mean to bust anyone's bubble here but to create a website in drupal is so bloody easy. You can create a really complex app without writing 1 line of code, in a matter of days. And as for a adaptive theming, i know there is a drupal theme for free, that allows this functionality with a few mouse clicks. These trained users can then work on the site with a salary , and a proper support structure from multiple drupal based companies. The government can put a process in place to carry on training new users while at the same time having provided real world training ( which is IMO is of way more then a degree ) to a group of youngsters who can now go and get a nice cozy job or even create their own company. This removes corrupt intent completely and at the same time it develops humans who otherwize are going to be smoking wongu and start knifing and raping because their is no work and no opportunity but a struggle of epic proportions the likes of which you, me and anyone else on this site could not even begin to comprehend, sitting behind your nice flat screen monitors and/or +R6000 smart phones.

( Just a side track. How is it that the government does not own its own servers? But wait it actually does, it actually has a server farm, with a team a server admins, so to be quite frank there should be a hosting cost of R0.00 )

This is what open source is about. It is about free as in freedom!! not free as in beer! that last statement will only make sense to an alcoholic .. not a software engineer. This form of programming is an ideology and you can argue the details of the positions between Stalleman and Linus (or maybe you dont even care :.( if you want but it basically comes down to empowering people to be better then they were the day before through the freedom of information , the freedom of source code. Well this is the way of the white hat anyway. It has so much value that even the likes of microsoft have opened up ASP, ajax, typescipt and a whole suite of technologies. And even more so with drupal going a step further and not releasing one ( NOT ONE ) module for money. This is about people and technology and wanting to improve peoples lives through this delicate art of coding. Not working off of a perverse subversion of Adam Smith's principles where money it the sole enricher of the soul and the determining factor of self worth.

Anyone who has really gotten into code or even site building will know this. That zone when the reality of Einsteins theory of relativity becomes very real and time becomes removed almost completely from the task at hand. I know we all have to survive ourselves and we all need to make money. But I think more then any other industry we have a responsibility as the pervaders of the speed at which our civilisation increases in advancement to not disregard the bigger picture and connectivity of a larger whole beyond the networks.

"The way of life can be free and beautiful, but we have lost the way. Greed has poisoned men's souls, has barricaded the world with hate, has goose-stepped us into misery and bloodshed. We have developed speed, but we have shut ourselves in. Machinery that gives abundance has left us in want, More than machinery, we need humanity"

// end of line

Than you for exapanding on your earlier posts

riaan burger's picture

It helps to keep communication open ;-)

I completely understand how raw everyone was after that costly over-prices website hit the headlines.

For you interest's sake, here's a link to the tender document:
http://www.gcis.gov.za/sites/www.gcis.gov.za/files/docs/aboutus/RFB01320...

Go through the gov.za website too.

I've built some awesome websites for clients and for repeat clients I regularly also deliver the odd site project that they really need to get to an end-client for several factors under development value. Some agencies are just so awesome you can't help but say yes to them and favors come easy. Germany's Avantgarde comes to mind. I simply cannot see how, after you take that specification and website in mind, you will be able to say that there is a way to deliver this for as little as you say.

"you will be able to say that

Anonymous's picture

"you will be able to say that there is a way to deliver this for as little as you say." ..

gnu / Linux : used by more machines in the world then any other os :free
Mysql : Most popular small tier database : free
Java: used on almost all google devices and various other large platforms : free
blender: Hugely popular 3d rendering program : free

AForge.NET ,Bitcoin,filefilla,foxit reader,mozilla, .. bro this list could go one for ages. Do you think these developers are stupid? Some of them have spent most of their lives on that one project, that is given for free. Ah but you creating websites not software applications. So totally different.

So lets float back to a normal reality in terms of costing. Its funny, i dont know how tenders work but if we go to a client ( and this is not web stuff ) and we dont show them a semi functioning version before any quote is even seen that meeting ends in 10 minutes. No paper work .. they want to see a working models.

So we can rule out hosting because ..well the infrastructure is already there, with support.

geez i dont have time for this .. but ok here we go.

"provide easy access to government online information "
f*&king duh

"conform to the highest international standards"
This is ambiguous with no actual reference to a definition of "highest" , this would would not work in any legal anything.

"are information-heavy and have complex and varying CMS workflows "
well that just incorrect use of the English language

"display on multiple devices"
pretty standard and easy with @media and modernizer, omega theme

" carry multilingual content"
this i can see as a challenge.

"comply with W3C accessibility requirements"
why would you not want to, just jquery it up

"comply with the highest security standards"
Again ambiguous, security is mainly server side ( besides the obvious which drupal does flipping well ) . And what do you have to give a lecture on social engineering because to me that is security in an organisation. Loose specs!

The vision of GCIS is: ”The pulse of communication excellence in government”
Lol at marketers!!

"government communication system that ensures that citizens and stakeholders are informed and have access to government programmes and policies that benefit them. "
So basically the standard functionality of a CMS

"As part of the initiative to enhance these websites GCIS is currently revamping the
look and feel of the websites."
Come on ppl Css is piss , jquery is piss . They are easy to program. i understand design is a whole other game but .. come on just find a good looking site and copy it. and then add jquery

"The information on the website is mainly in English. However, some information is published in more official languages"
So no support for the 11 official languages then .. piss. Basically is just creating pages in another language

"The information on the website is grouped in main content types/categories. Each category links to pages that list relevant"
So its like very single other website on the internet then

"mega drop-down navigation"
drupal has a module for this. Monkey clicks to get it working

"The revamped design will cater for some pages to display information drawn from more than one category/ content type "
So panels then?

" that allows users to searches over the entire website "
Thank goodness they specified that

"The websites are hosted on a GCIS web server in an Apache environment on a Sun
Solaris platform"
So there are no hosting fees then

"Dynamic information is stored in one Oracle database. "
you realize drupal can work with Oracle right .. so no migrations. Just training on the integration

"GCIS will only approve the designs once we are satisfied."
LOL .. Jumping frog fee here

"including the migration of current information in the database."
Ok so they do want to migrate it. Cause that is fun , no time wasting there.

"Migration of the current static content to the new CMS"
so basically you get a monkey .. ok not a monkey, get a parrot ( they can mimic and talk shit so thats fun ) then teach it through classical conditioning to use ctrl +c, ctrl +v

"A search solution that is integrated into the overall content management solution."
so more clicking here or not even clicking because you can setup that all up in console.

"The deadline for implementation of the CMS and search solution is 30 September 2014 at the latest. "
thats more then a year to do this ..

"the successful service provider will have to give ongoing support"
Right so the government does not even know how to use their own servers .. f*$k me

"720 hours over a period of one year"
this is bullshit and someone should have told them the industry standard

"GCIS can form a close and productive team." .. derp
If that is the case why do they not just hire full time staff which would more effectively work with the current integration of all their IT !!

"Adapted designs for the www.gov.za and www.service.gov.za websites."
Redundant data

.. Ok so section 5.1 is basically just repeating themselves . There is probably an official page length for tenders.

"further development by any expert in the field. "
Hope you provide //comment docs because , well papers go missing in government places

"provide training to GCIS users. This includes the following: a) training /user manual"
So you will have to train them on how to use the training manual ... Id charge them R1 000 000.00 just for that

"Progress reports"
This is viage but it sounds rather important

"support and improvement) for the CMS and search solution"
Why are they making out that the search functionality is such a big deal? Yeah i know its important but that just seems odd. If you are providing support for the CMS that includes the search

"and implementation of the CMS and search solution"
again .. weird

section 7
legal blah blah blah

"Accessibility: The solution must accommodate blind and visually impaired users"
ok so far this is probably the most technical piece i have seen in this document and would consider hiring a decent dev for this .. maybe a google dev ;)

"The solution must be able to manage an information-heavy website with complex and varying workflows."
Which is basically what drupal does .. Not as well as ASP MVC ( oh look hes a .NET stack nerd everything he says from now on counts for nothing :P )

"The solution must comply with the highest security standards."
This seriously needs to be more specific, Its actually retarded that the security which must be the "highest standard" has no specifications of the so called standard.

"The development platform must allow for the building of additional components and platforms. The development platform must be flexible to .."
Yes yes every CMS ever developed had this in mind

"solution should support load levels to cater for increased usage."
Again this is mostly server side which should be a in house activity based on currently active infrustruture

The rest of 7 is all standard CMS stuff with the integration of analytics .. oh wait google has one of the most advanced web stats ..for free, and a paid version which is even better, they charge $400,000 .. kidding they dont charge that much that would be insane

"The public view must be displayed in different languages, including the 11 official
languages of South Africa"
Ok granted this is kinda technical

"11 Navigation and structure " .. my god

"Links between pages must be stable when restructuring" .. LOL

"The solution must support presentation across the most popular browsers (latest
IE version; Mozilla Firefox; Safari, Chrome; Opera). "
modernizer and yes thats free aswell , not bothered if you dont donate

"Friendly URLs should be displayed. All URLs should be in lower case."
more monkey clicking

"7.2.13 Integrated search"
All important search only goes up until the letter e?

ok im just going to skim it from now on

the rest is just standard BS

I cannot believe you even quoted R12Mil for that. although considering the Orange free state deal I am sure mind sets have changes a bit in the high echelons of web development with those who know the main mobsters.

There are 2 major challenges i see in that whole document . Accessibility to the bind and the localization and maybe a migration to a certain degree. Drupal has very well documented modules on localization and migration . As for the bind , well ...

You should have not given me that link , I now even more then before think this whole thing is a bunch of inside bullshit. I would not be surprised if who ever you were working for was told to quote R12Mil so that the 2.7Mil looked like peanuts.

My god i should send you ppl a proper development spec where they actually add in the security spec based on an in house algorithm using a RSA cryptography derivative specified to data models that have connections that are more comparable to the neuron connections in your brain.

There was actually not one technical data sheet in that whole thing. There was some database table showing datatypes .. thats is.

I would do that site R10 ,000 . You give me half a chance. Id walk straight into that meeting , with my lawyer and and close that deal. 1% of every tender processed by the website. BAM .. never work another day in my life.

R10 000?

Mark Theunissen's picture

R10000?

Only local images are allowed.

I'd suggest you go out and spend a few years in the real world, then come back and revisit this topic. You may find your opinion changed somewhat.

whatever bro, if you actually

Anonymous's picture

whatever bro, if you actually read that sentence with any rational comprehension your would have realized i would be making money off of the site in an on going basis. I used a figure of speech ( that is a linguistic form structure if you were wondering ), sarcasm to poke fun at this tender process. I understand if you did not actually get.

Just to Point Out

riaan burger's picture

I have the utmost respect for people like Mark (sorry to do this to you Mark, I know how humble Open Source developers can be): https://drupal.org/user/108606 and I can only hope that with the assistance of Ivan and the people at the Johannesburg meet-ups I can grow into such an awesome contributor to the Drupal project one day.

Now that I read that profile I may add that one of the biggest time sinks of my week is my habit of reading the entire weekly edition of The Economist before switching to Drupal books and content ;-)

Timothy https://drupal.org/user/716774 - your profile looks closer to my own. It may be best to take in as much as we can here.

Finally, I'm also such a Trekkie that I get all the new HD releases of ST:TNG and watch them all again even though I saw the series several times already.

Timothy, you're a troll. But,

mckeen_greg's picture

Timothy, you're a troll. But, because you have landed on our bridge, Im willing to have one last battle here.

Linux, MySQL, Drupal, FireFox, Firebug, etc etc etc are free to the public to download and use. Yes. That is true. Now, how about your time? Is that free? If I brought you to my place of work, provided you with all the tools you needed to clean my office, and said, do it for free because I provided the tools for free, would you? No. Because free tools do not mean free everything. If you want that type of lifestyle, join the movements which have been created to cater to your lifestyle.

Moving on, because arguing "Free" next to "Open Source" is not a useful comparison. All those free systems have commercial interests behind them, which often drives the development and innovation required. Many modules on drupal.org have been spawned in this way.

Its funny, i dont know how tenders work but if we go to a client ( and this is not web stuff ) and we dont show them a semi functioning version before any quote is even seen that meeting ends in 10 minutes. No paper work .. they want to see a working models.

And here you show your ignorance. Firstly, not all projects require a working model before meetings and costings. And often the prototype requires a costing of its own. You're selling to the wrong people, and delivering on the wrong expectations. You should be meeting with a client to understand their scope, so that you don't build in the wrong direction. Next, and this will become relevant later. Often clients know what they want, but have a poor way of detailing that information. They hire you (or rather, us) because we are the experts and we can work through their clutter to find the solution they need. Sometimes this is as easy as installing Open Atrium for them, and charging setup costs (again, time spent - not for free).

"provide easy access to government online information "
f*&king duh

Not fucking duh. Sorry, but no. Working with government data is often messy, uncollated, and requires structure and thinking. Again, time. It's not cut and paste as you say later on. It requires consultation, a global view of the outcomes of the project, and what the User needs and wants. Not necessarily what the client (government in this case) thinks the user wants.

"conform to the highest international standards"
This is ambiguous with no actual reference to a definition of "highest" , this would would not work in any legal anything.

And now you know why some pieces of projects are quoted highly, because of the ambiguous statement, assumptions must be made.

"display on multiple devices"
pretty standard and easy with @media and modernizer, omega theme

Easy to say, not easy to do. Mobile devices aren't just "smaller screens", they are precious real estate. You can't just squish everything into a single column and assume it will be fine. You can't just hide everything with collapsiblocks and hope the user will know what to click. You have to consider each screen, each size, and yes, each page, to make sure you are providing the most important information to that user, in the most user friendly way, and that when they go to a Desktop device, with more real estate that they can still do the same. I hate this idea that mobile is as easy as squishing everthing into one column, that's bad usability, and casts a shadow on those of us who try to provide good experiences.

"comply with W3C accessibility requirements"
why would you not want to, just jquery it up

Oh yes, because Feature Phones (read: not smart phones) have excellent JavaScript libraries in their browsers and allow for a good experience. You cant just use Jquery to fix your broken up HTML.

"comply with the highest security standards"
Again ambiguous, security is mainly server side ( besides the obvious which drupal does flipping well ) . And what do you have to give a lecture on social engineering because to me that is security in an organisation. Loose specs!

Fair enough. But this is not the Development houses fault. This is the creators of the spec trying to cover their bases, and leaving up to the consultants to suggest the best way forward. Another item which will push up the price, because it's a piece of string knotted up, and you don't know how long it is.

"government communication system that ensures that citizens and stakeholders are informed and have access to government programmes and policies that benefit them. "
So basically the standard functionality of a CMS

Really? So, just paste the information, someone will find it. Nothing about a landing page to ask, "Who are you? Let us guide you to what you need. Are you a taxpayer? Are you looking for tenders? Do you have a service delivery issue?"
See, in two minutes I identified a useful landing page, but getting that content, collating it, presenting it in a usable format, that is that hard part.

"mega drop-down navigation"
drupal has a module for this. Monkey clicks to get it working

Yup, I can see a monkey clicking away at his keyboard the whole day right now, named Timothy. Just because you can click something, doesn't mean you should.
Mega menu's have their place. This project would require consultation to understand where are the best places to use mega-menus. Remember, they HIDE functionality, not make it easier to find.

"The revamped design will cater for some pages to display information drawn from more than one category/ content type "
So panels then?

Yes. Panels easily translate to mobile. Oh, wait, they don't. They need special classes to work with grid systems.

" that allows users to searches over the entire website "
Thank goodness they specified that

Just provide Drupal Search out of the box. Oh, wait, that's hard to use. Ok, make a view. Wow, look at that, more time, consultation, evaluation, etc.

"Dynamic information is stored in one Oracle database. "
you realize drupal can work with Oracle right .. so no migrations. Just training on the integration

Yes, give the client exactly what they want. Despite the fact that the overhead for using Oracle with Drupal increases exponentially as you add modules that don't use DBTNG, or add specific SQL queries that Oracle doesn't support.

"720 hours over a period of one year"
this is bullshit and someone should have told them the industry standard

Above you said you know nothing about tenders. And this shows. They specified it, even though it's not standard. With tenders, you quote on what they ask for, because again, you have to be evaluated on an equal playing field with other contenders, which will be quoting on the same. After you have the project, you can speak to them, and advise on the best way forward.

"support and improvement) for the CMS and search solution"
Why are they making out that the search functionality is such a big deal? Yeah i know its important but that just seems odd. If you are providing support for the CMS that includes the search

Because not all the decisions you make regarding search are going to work the first time. You will need to sit with users, tell them, find the tax percentages for 2013, and see if they can, if they can't, you will need to adjust. Gosh dude, it's like you think you're the emperor of amazing development, and what you do the first time will always work and be right. No room for agile in your development house?

"The solution must be able to manage an information-heavy website with complex and varying workflows."
Which is basically what drupal does

Not if you looked at the actual workflow required.

"Friendly URLs should be displayed. All URLs should be in lower case."
more monkey clicking

Sure, just install Pathauto and you're done right. Let the title of the document be the full path, and who cares about navigation etc.

By now I am also tired of your post. So I am going to stop. Go back to your troll hiding place, you're making the rest of us look really good by comparison.

Stunning Contribution!

riaan burger's picture

That reply must have taken you a while! Thank you so much for sharing such valuable information highlighting so many if the items individually. With so many people, even internationally, now reading this topic (as Mark pointed out, it went to http://groups.drupal.org/hot) it is really important that we highlight that we do have the talent, skills and shops in South Africa to build enterprise websites in Drupal.

Thanks you Greg!

Thanks Riaan. I feel like a

mckeen_greg's picture

Thanks Riaan.

I feel like a bit of a toss though for my reply below where I state Timothy has saved himself from the douche bag title.

And yes, we do have the skills to deliver excellent projects and products to our clients. There are many Drupal houses here in SA who work hard and make sure their clients get what they need.

Squabbling on the price of a project which one does not understand undermines the work that went into qualifying for this tender. It took us over a week to develop our tender docs, and while we are sad we did not get it, we are happy that it was still awarded to an Open Source Dev house. There were closed source systems at the table too, and they could have easily been priced at much higher (though I can't be certain as I don't know what each individual company tendered for)

I think you've just saved

mckeen_greg's picture

I think you've just saved yourself from forever being remembered as the douche bag who went on a tirade.

What you are saying is true, and we can get into the details of how Web Development costs time and money due to their requirements etc etc etc. We can talk on whether this project is over or under funded, etc.

However, I want to touch on what you have said about Skills and Training. This is something that the Drupal Association of South Africa is busy tackling.

Anyway, in our tender, we costed to have training for under privileged so that they may be the eventual caretakers and developers of future systems. This was probably ignored, particularily because we were instructed that the only things we could cost for, were the specific requirements. When tenders go out, they need to be evaluated equally, and ours identified areas that the others would not have, and therefore we submitted an "unofficial document". However, we couldnt submit the document without that, as it sits close to our hearts to help others, learn and be better than they were.

We arent all corporate rapists. We want to survive, thrive and do well, and take others along for the ride while we are at.

R2.7mil is a very reasonable

Mark Theunissen's picture
  • R2.7mil is a very reasonable price for what the SA government is asking for. Read the tender document, it's right there.

  • Suggesting that someone should spend 2.7mil teaching disadvantaged school leavers to build the SA government website is ridiculous.

  • You claim that building such a website is "bloody easy". This shows that you have never implemented a large-scale Drupal project. I have spent the last 5 years working on exactly these types of Drupal projects, and yes, they cost millions of dollars. Yes, they're all open-source.

I'm sorry Timothy, but your abusive tone is not welcome, nor are your rants about your political ideologies in a Drupal forum. If you want to change the political climate and the spending habits of the SA government, I suggest you start by campaigning with voters.

Nice to Have you Here!

riaan burger's picture

Hello Mark!

So nice to see you active here in the South African group. To have such an active contributor and rockstar here to give insight is helpful and super cool.

Often one sits back and questions oneself. Timothy's posts just had me do that again (though it is a regular affair). Lovely how the Drupal community can turn rants to something so very positive. I'm sure many local shops learned a lot from the tender to read, the amounts actually mentioned and the supportive constructive community communication.

We face troublesome political views on a daily basis still here in SA. It is a pity and we do have to actively and positively work against such things. Out is the open is best ;-)

Do you have any special ties with South Africa. A friend here perhaps or are you from here originally?

"Suggesting that someone

Anonymous's picture

"Suggesting that someone should spend 2.7mil teaching disadvantaged school leavers to build the SA government website is ridiculous."

yeah totally mad right. Trying to find ways to help with this crazy unemployment rate through the education of young people... madding!

All the Better if it can be Built Cheaper

riaan burger's picture

You should really also enter the tendering bids. The market controls itself quite well, if you are able to deliver large scale sites like this cheaper using OSS you should.

What we offer clients isn't cheaper sites so much as better sites. Competing with enterprise software we can spend those licensing fees on better product. We choose to, it is a free market. If you choose to compete more on price, that's up to you. I have clients that are more price sensitive and quote to them accordingly. Others that are very, very quality sensitive and quote to them accordingly too. I try to be very open about it too so they know what they pay for.

Something else to keep in mind about government tenders is that they have to try to keep a level playing field between the bids. So it's less communicative than with commercial clients. For my industry clients communication is very organic and they get exactly the stuff that gives them business value.

Thank you

Mily Gibson's picture

I have only been working with drupal for a short amount of time and can definitely agree that it is a well developed, user friendly software to build high end websites with awesome functionality, but to involve such statements as "Monkey clicks to get it working" is a really low dig and unnecessary! It also has a very negative effect on Drupal.

To provide the client with the correct content and functionality is a challenge especially taking into consideration as Greg mentioned earlier "we are the experts" which means also having to use our own initiative based on what we know will work best for the client to build the site.

Thank you for all the support in the community it is really encouraging and I'm sure opens the door for more Drupal users to post in the forums with their ideas.

Drupal is an awesome community and I am incredibly happy and excited to be a part of it and eventually contribute as much as I can. The amount of learning is endless and is tough at times, I must admit but always exciting and very moreish. ;)

Well i guess we are all sick

Anonymous's picture

Well i guess we are all sick and tired of this back and forth you obviously think this is a fair price and thats fine, good for you all.
I was flipping tired when i looked over that tender so maybe i did not take a lot into consideration

I do feel that some of that work is complex, localisation is not easy with our languages, migration is tricky when you are working with multiply data sources and accessibility to the bind is, i can only imagine , is very complex task.
I just think almost 1 million rand for support and another 72,000R for hosting is a bit ridiculous. As well as other costs that should not inflated because we use open source software.

Obviously im a troll this nothing better to do , i am not in any way constructive so please if you point me in the direction to how i can actually remove my account and leave you with peace. That would be great.

We All Start Somewhere

riaan burger's picture

Timothy. Nobody starts out knowing the complexities of large scale Drupal projects. We all started in various ways like just getting PHP Nuke up, felt like we graduated to the big time several times as we built our own CMSes, discovered the amount of work to maintain such, found Drupal and there's still no such thing as a Responsive design expert (didn't even hear people talk about it 24 months ago). Life's about learning and celebrating change and new information. There was certainly a time I could not conceive of a million Rand website.

Please stay. Check this out and tell me it's not worth staying: https://portland2013.drupal.org/code-of-conduct

Come to a few meet-ups and hear all the guys talk about their humanitarian side interests and you may be surprised at just how ethical the community is, organically so.

I'm so happy cause today I've found my friends, they in my head

Anonymous's picture

I dont think i hold those values as i am sure you can attest from my posts. I obviously suffer from a bit of psychosis and will probably need to get a hold of some lithium soon. I hardly even use drupal nowadays, i am not to sure why i even posted on here to begin with. Probably just so damn jealous, we work on fairly complex projects and dont get nothing even remotely close to this type of money.

I see it turns out you cant even delete a drupal account .. so .. anyways

good luck to eCon with the project and may the force be with you

Good Bye for Now

riaan burger's picture

Cheers Timothy.

If you ever look at those Drupal community values again in future and feel they draw you in, you'll always be welcome here under such conduct.

Privileged Situation

riaan burger's picture

Since we're getting a brand spanking new Drupal gov.za website from eConsultant and I'm in the privileged situation of being to ask a developer directly for something related to a government website... ;-)

I just realized how many client websites I've built and are building this week that links to gov.za documentation. My request is two fold:

1) Please remember to check existing usage and traffic, especially to all the documents so that the new website will redirect to any new document locations.

2) It would be so much nicer for external websites and links to be able to link to web landing pages for documents in stead of directly to the PDFs. Even more intelligent landing pages would be awesome. Right now I'm linking to the National Credit Act and there are several amendments to the act that would be quite convenient to have listed on the landing page for the act.

South Africa

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