Greetings fellow Drupallers!
I began working on OpenMusic, a social network that aims at letting fans help music artists. By giving appropriate roles to its fans - thus getting them involved - an artist can build a network of valuable friends where each can provide a service to help the artist.
I've been in a band many times ( and still am!) and I've seen how fans crave to be involved into bands in one or another way. Designing posters, building websites, making a connection to a local radio station, giving haircut advices each fan can throw in his own 2 cents. What we all need is a platform to allow us to find each other, discovering new music in the middle, making successful gigs and throwing parties. It sounds so much fun, it even gives me the illusion that over there music could eventually be Free.
Now that I finished drooling, on to the serious part. Your opinion is deeply appreciated in forming a framework of functionality for the following diagram:
I've been striving to work out the best approach but I am always at dead ends. Organic groups, buddylist, taxonomy access, a more granular form of access control, somebodysysop's og_user_roles, which of all!? How can a user be a fan of Band A and simultaneously be Band A's manager. From what I've gathered so far, organic groups seems to be the best approach, where a generic og member is a fan, and roles specific to each group tell what kind of a fan one is. A band's manager should be given the right to publish an event node to the band's og page, a band's graphic designer to publish an image node, much like a music artist should be able to create an audio node in his bands og page.
Am I missing something here? Can this be done without organic groups? What about artists that are not bands, how can they have fans?
Could all this ever be made into a distribution profile?
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Comments
I have been working on a
I have been working on a similar project, except the purpose is to facilitate music collaboration. I haven't played too much with roles in og but I see great potential with it.
But maybe to simplify things for now, why worry about roles in groups? If a group node is a band, then the band members could be group admins and the fans would be everyone else. The fans could submit any type of content they want to the group, and then the group admins could moderate that content.
If tricky permissions are needed then my guess would be the band needs its own site...at some point configuring organic groups looks a lot like configuring an entire mini site! But of course the value of organic groups is that there is cross pollination and fans/bands/managers can work in multiple levels.
Well, looks like I've restated everything you've said and contributed absolutely nothing. :) But you did get me thinking about this...
that's the point
that's the point my friend! I've posted this to ignite some brainstorming, I know there is a lot of people planning on a drupal music community, and I would like to hear your opinions, and why not, even discuss about taking a unified course so that all our music communities can connect to each other and collaborate ( drupal.module already caters for distributed login, and foaf module for profile transfer)
By allowing the fans to submit any type of content they want to a band's og node, all fans are treated equally when some fans should have more priviledges than others, like a reward for their services. Moreover the administration burden for the band, deleting all the spam nodes ( see myspace comments chaos) would, in my opinion be enough to put off the band from using the site altogether. The same stands for having a multisite drupal installation.
I agree that configuring organic groups is a pain, but the problem when taking this route is that as of now, there are no official drupal modules that offer different roles per user per organic group. When someone gets the role band_manager in one organic group, he becomes band_manager in all(!) organic groups! That is not exactly what we need I believe. Thank god there is a kind contributor, somebodysysop, who is working hard in access control group to fix exactly that. I hope he receives all the help he needs.
The buddylist approach is simple enough but would not allow for specific privileges to be given from one user to the other. Please bear in mind that we need a way to reward fans for providing services. With buddylist all we can do is display the fans' latest nodes in a band's page, like some kind of advertisement. Moreover, some kind of predetermined buddy group management should be put in place so that a band can assign fans to certain predefined groups ( band members, managers, graphic designers etc ) and not be given control over creating new groups.
Furthermore, there is always the approach of Userpoints, where the value of a fan would be determined by how many userpoints one has. Together with actions module, users would be encouraged to participate in community actions like voting, commenting, creating nodes and of course exchanging userpoints for services. That is a tempting though, prone to cause more trouble than good though...(think about paid userpoints and the handicaps of capitalism ;) )
So what do you think about all this?
A healthy disregard for the impossible.
quick one..
Hi Chris,
Fascinating idea.
I was thinking of something similar recently..i.e. an open music style distributed authentication solution, for artist/band sites. In the same way as Drupals distributed authentication works but dedicated to band sites.
It's not as sophisticated as your idea, it was where you have, let's say 50 (drupal driven) band sites and a member of band 001 is able to login to the fan area of band 003 using the same login details, as long as band 001 and band 003 agree. A natural progression of which would be when band 001 releases a new album, they can also reach out to the fans of band 003 and vice versa.
The main thrust behind the idea was the cross-pollination of fan bases rather than the more in-depth functionality you were suggesting.
Did you come across anything like that when you were researching your open music idea?
Dub
Taking that idea further,
Taking that idea further, what if there was an entire module dedicated to connecting various band sites together? The idea being, if site A accepts an offer to connect with site B, they share user logins as well as share content (maybe by XML or XML-RPC). I know at one point there was some work being done that was similar to this, such as the Publish and Subscribe modules which basically work to sync two sites together.
Then each band could maintain their own site with all their own features, yet still connect with all the other bands out there and benefit from sharing fanbases and notifying each other of shows, events, new cds etc. In a way, distributing authentication between sites as well as distributing content between sites. This would be useful for all the same reasons that a site like myspace is useful, the difference being that each site stands on its own and can modify and customize their site to create a unique identity, while maintaining those relationships. The scenario could be as simple as site A asking to be added as a "friend" to site B and then taking it from there.
I thought at one point I heard that for Drupal Authentication there were plans to restrict by domain suffix so you could control who gets to authenticate you... But my guess is that whole system will be thrown out the window if OpenID gets into Drupal, which it probably will. In that case, I'm not sure how you could identify an OpenID user as being from one site versus the other since it is so general.
I like the idea of distributed authentication so much...
but I believe that sharing information across music sites is much easier/effective (and feasible with the modules we already have) when all these sites operate under the umbrella of a larger common website, a single point of reference for bands and fans to sign-up with, to be guided into creating their own brand website with the -carefully selected- tools they are given, to be able to give their fans return value for being loyal to their music by giving them direct roles into the band - as mentioned in the OpenMusic model. It can all be achieved when these band websites are in essence organic groups that operate within the context and care of a single mother website, where a huge fanbase can evolve and cross-pollination will take place in larger scales.
Think about a drupal powered Myspace , open sourced => everyone can create his own OpenMusic by deploying the OpenMusic installation profile. Now, instead of interconnecting independent band sites together imagine what would happen if you join 100 OpenMusic based websites by the means of distributed authentication and the sharing of content. The exact outcome is evading my imagination, but I see bands sharing fans across OpenMusic websites, content being spread all over the OM network, tag clouds that visualize content network-wide, search facilities that return results from all OM sites. Doesn't it at least sound exciting?
A healthy disregard for the impossible.
Yes, it is exciting. I also
Yes, it is exciting. I also think there is room enough for both types of sites to exist. One where individual bands have their own individual sites, and myspace style sites where organic groups is used. If we can think of someway for both sites to coexist and be aware of each other, then we get the best of both worlds. Because some bands may be satisfied with using centralized tools as you mention, while others may wish to establish an even stronger identity with their own custom website. In the latter case, a decentralized method of sharing content is crucial (think of the power of distributed P2P systems).
great idea
I think it's a very good idea (an aggregated open music network).
For anyone who has followed myspace, last.fm or pandora.com (plus many others) the scope for establishing an open source, non commercial version that's driven by artists, rather than venture capitalists, it would be a huge draw for artists and musicians.
Especially those who are part of communities like myspace..which generates a huge amount of income in advertising for news corp, with nothing being re-invested into the music.
I think, alongside your idea, there should be a artist/band Drupal distribution developed to make it easier for band webmasters to migrate to Drupal.
I'm stating the obvious a bit, but, I just thought I'd throw that in. I agree - it's a very exciting idea.
Dub
OpenMusic sounds like free music but...
we all know there is money to be made from music, if not directly through sales, then through fan merchandising, ticket sales, advertising space. I have always been a tenacious supporter of free music, but I've come to terms with the trends, selling music for a low fee and if and only if the monster part goes to the artist then music could be sold (although sometimes it feels more like you are donating to an artist instead of buying something, what you get for the money you give is so intangible, so why don't you just donate?! - wait, I know the answer: consumerism )
How could all this flow within the aggregated OpenMusic network? How should the owners of OpenMusic "islands" monetize the traffic of their websites and then how and why re-invest into music? OpenMusic might be Drupal > open source but what would prevent its owners to transform their sites into another myspace?
The answer is loss of traffic. Nobody will be needing yet one more myspace in a year or two. "Steal" the artists and you'll get no traffic on your site. No traffic > no advertising > no income. Invest your income to your artists, print them posters, print them t-shirts, arrange concerts and print tickets for them and THEN give all this away to the fans bit by bit. How? Provide your fans with an incentive to use your site, to create traffic so that you can sell profitable ads. Give them...OPENPOINTS! ( I agree a better name is needed... )
By using Userpoints module together with actions, OpenMusic websites can award OpenPoints to their users for creating content, commenting and voting. These points can buy them artist merchandise which is sponsored by OpenMusic itself.
When it comes to artists, all they have to decide is whether they will:
Now we have something different, an open source aggregated network where monetizing finally benefits music.
Anybody thinking distributed authentication and profile transfer right now?
A healthy disregard for the impossible.
I think leveraging the power
I think leveraging the power of fans could be done simply through a quiet karma system. After all, you wouldn't want to motivate fans to action simply by dangling a carrot right? But maybe just provide a way to follow who's really helping out a lot, just out of their own love of the band, and then occasionally offer a token of appreciation (free download, backstage passes, a phone call from the band). I think feeling appreciated or recognized by a band you love is probably a more satisfying reward than a pure points system.
An easy way to de-emphasize this point system could be just to hide the points from users or maybe rename them to something more friendly sounding. "Regal Badges of Honor" ;)
As a disclaimer I will admit I got a little confused following you in the third paragraph - I wasn't sure if users were the artists themselves...or just the fans...or both...?
both!
I am sorry if I have been a little bit vague, only lately did things start clearing up in my head . Please let me summarize:
Openmusic users can take upon various roles, which give them various access rights across an Openmusic website. Bands are formed as Organic groups where the creator of the organic group assigns roles to the group's subscribers ( the fans ). Therefore, a subscriber(fan) becomes a band's musician when he is given the role bands_musician, a fan can become a band's manager and be given the access right to create event nodes in the bands organic group. A fan can become a band's photographer and be given the right to create image nodes in the bands organic group. To stretch this notion a little bit, a fan can be given the role myspace_profile_editor and manage the bands myspace profile or whatever other social network we want. That would be a reward to loyal fans, acknowledgment of their work and most importantly a benefit to the artists. In that way, to answer your query any Openmusic user can be an organic group's (band's) fan simply by subscribing to it.
At this point I would like to give merit to the wonderful work of SomebodySysop, og_user_roles.module as a sign of appreciation. OpenMusic would not be feasible without your continuant efforts my friend!
This kind of reward to the fans I believe is not enough for a healthy Music Community to thrive. There is no involvement of money, which is inevitable in a high traffic social network. We need a way to invest all the traffic income back into music. The only way I can think of is what I mention in my previous post. That would not only motivate the fans, it would be a great benefit to the artists.
However, I agree that such a points system should be de-emphasized so that it does not feel like, as you very nicely put it, motivate fans to action simply by dangling a carrot!
A healthy disregard for the impossible.
Context is King.
Sorry Chris, but, I'm slightly lost on where you're going with this.....it sounds like you are talking about 2 different things i.e. an openFAN and an openARTIST network and rolling them all together into one. I'm not so sure if that's such a great idea and as an aside, encouraging fans to be part of business teams is tantamount to disaster.
I have heard some horror stories where street teams run out of control...usually involving over enthusiastic fans spamming message boards and sending spam emails by harvesting addresses from sites in a bid to increase their karma with a particular band or artist site. The intentions are good - the fan genuinely wants to spread the word, but, that sort of activity actually damages the band/artist.
I think what you're really talking about is how a particular artist/band site might work, rather than an openMusic network. In other words, the stuff you're talking about (fans becoming business managers, band photographers etc.) is the sort of stuff that would happen within a band/artist site and their community.
Some of the the points you're making are valid - how an artist/band fan community evolves is pivotal to the success of that band/artist, but, I see the openMusic community (which is essentially a collective community of fan communities) as a completely separate beast, with a completely different set of parameters.
On the topic of fan communities, can I recommend Nancy Byrams excellent ONLINE FANDOM blog which discusses online fan communities in detail...how they work...the pitfalls ..benefits etc.?
When I mentioned distributed authentication in an open music network, I envisaged a simple platform, where artists could allow fans of other artists login to their own 'members area'. What happens beyond that should be determined by the artists themselves. And unlike myspace/other similar ventures, the openMusic network doesn't 'own' the communities, the bands and artists do. The openMusic network just allows or enables stuff to happen.
It's plausible that an openMUSIC community might evolve off the back of that, offering an opportunity to get advertising revenue from traffic etc. but, that shouldn't be the game plan with the network, I think.
The reason is, when commerce meets music, in any shape or form, things start to happen that are usually weighted in favour of the commercial rather than the musical ....so it's not really about coming up with, as you put it: rewards for the fans I believe is enough for a healthy Music Community to thrive...the rewards system between fans and music is already very well established and very simple, Chris: i.e. music is priceless and there are thousands of thriving fan communities out there already...IMHO what it's really about is cross-pollinating those thriving communities together in a simple and clean way and distributed authentication that doesn't involve corporations is one such way.
hope that makes sense
Dub
that's why i mentioned a barter social network
but really, I was looking for a way to get fans involved into music business! Guess I'll have to study Nancy's blog!
I've been in the music business singing in 4-5 bands and sortof managing one of them and I've seen that there are fans dying to help bands in many aspects of that business and are eager to do it without any rewards, which sounded somewhat discomforting to me. I haven't considered disaster scenarios because in OpenMusic the band has total control over what fan does what job, so it should be easy to cast a fan out of their given role. It is nevertheless in an certain aspect a social experiment, which I kind of prefer to building yet another myspace clone.
In reality I always needed a website for my band where we could build a community for all this functionality to take place (role assigning, points etc). Providing these assets to only one band however seemed quite selfish. Therefore I imagined OpenMusic, a social networking website where all bands will have the same website functionality while being able to equally share website resources, be it fans, tools, promotion or financial resources. The idea of an OpenMusic Network of websites came later on, when i contemplated upon the success of myspace - the worldwide spread of its million users. Drupal is the right platform, supporting installation profiles and having most functionality in place in the form of modules, so I thought I should give it a try.
Of course it is right to argue that all this could make an installation profile for a single band website. However in my case I need a central point of publication, financial and event management that would be run by the website owner, the man or group of people that will pay for hosting, will arrange for live concerts, will talk to the press, will make deals with advertising agencies to promote their bands etc. In that view, OpenMusic is not "open source", it is not run by a community, I don't know how that could be achieved but I am open to suggestions. On the other hand, if one wants to build such a community, the code will be open source, and the owner will enjoy the benefits of aggregated content and a distributed userbase. That's the idea.
A healthy disregard for the impossible.
OPEN ID
Just thought I'd mention that Open ID will be available with Drupal 6.0. It's not exactly what was being discussed, but, slightly related.
Dub
How's this project coming along?
I'm interested in hearing how this project is coming along and seeing what ways folks in the community could get involved. Any ideas how/where project oriented collaborations could/should take place?
Gus Austin
PepperAlley Productions
Gus Austin
Hello Gusaus! Thank you for
Hello Gusaus! Thank you for your interest!
I am currently implementing the basic structures like user profiles, audio/playlists, basic organic groups functionality and some very initial theming along the way. There is a long way to go, but that leaves plenty of room for discussion and improvements upon basic issues. The main idea nevertheless remains the same, that is collaboration of music artists and fans in a network of social communities.
Good news is SomebodySysop's og user roles is now an official module at http://drupal.org/project/og_user_roles , and of course the amazing development of http://groups.drupal.org/node/5002 which will be a great asset in creating an installation profile for OpenMusic. Finally I have my eyes on Robroy's user customizable themes module.
Now that I think of it, it would be quite handy to start a group here at groups.drupal.org, to organize all the thoughts better, exchange opinions and work together on that monster! What do you think?
A healthy disregard for the impossible.
Not sure about creating a new group
I'm not sure if the best bet is to create a separate group. Considering there's relatively little activity in this group, I wouldn't worry about information overload. Then again, a separate group may be easier to organize and collaborate? Guess you could x-post relevant bits to related groups.
Gus Austin
PepperAlley Productions
Gus Austin
Keeping Track
I am following along with this thread and am happy to participate anytime when appropriate. I will be watching the use of the modules mentioned above and am checking out the Robroy's user customizable themes module. Thanks for keeping your progress public.
Lee
http://edtechtalk.com
and in progress and I mean I am just getting started on this one! http://musicbridge.com
Making the transition
Hi all
I have been running musicollaborate.com for nearly three years now.
The site was a standard html site with a phpbb forum and an old dating script which I modified for a professional musician directory. The place was like a ghost town, I had lots of visitors but very little activity.
One week ago I switched to Drupal and I am so excited with my site, its modules and the potential for active users.
Drupal Rocks!
I want to keep in touch for all relevant modules development.
I would be interested to hear what you think of the way I have organised my site - be critical!
Best Regards
Tony
http://musicollaborate.com/