A simple question with far reaching consequences - At a DrupalCamp in a non English speaking country (e.g. Spain), what should be the primary language ?
My arguments
This is my view, and i post it to get the discussion going.
As i see it, if the majority of sessions are in English, it will :
- Bring in more sponsors from the wider (English speaking) Drupal community
- Potentially improve the quality of the sessions, because more Drupal developers speak english
- Improve English speaking (non-local) attendance. People will not invest $$$$ flying and staying in hotels, if they are then only able to understand 10% (or less) of the sessions
Unfortunately i think language choice is a all or nothing issue. Unless the camp is promoted as being in English (or at least 50/50) you face a negative feedback loop.
Not enough English sessions/focus --> Less interest from non-native speakers --> Not enough English sessions/focus
My proposal
The camp is promoted as an English language camp with a native langage 'Track', which would probably focus more on the newbie/introductory level to keep it accessible to local businesses and people with a casual interest. Advanced sessions would be targeted at English speaking (perhaps with translation help for slides / dual slides etc) to attract the people who would invest the $$$ to come to a camp in another country
Anything other than this approach, i think, would result in a very poor attendance by non-native speakers and as a result only a few 'star speaker' sessions would be in English with little recognition from the wider Drupal community.
Discuss :)
I am cross posting this in a few groups, as i'm interested to hear from the potential non native speakers attitudes to camps in non English speaking countries (like Spain)? Link to help : http://translate.google.com/
Comments
I don't agree. A DrupalCamp
I don't agree. A DrupalCamp must focus in the "local community". It's sadly but the spaniards don't speak english (did you see my english?? :P)
Neurotic web design
yes please!
Just my two cents: I live in the UK, but I really want to travel to drupal camps in Europe, especially to Spain. Unfortunately this would not be reasonable financially if there aren't many tracks in english. I have seen that a lot of camps in Central Europe (Prague, Romania) have either been english only, or having a lot of sessions in english, which boosted the number and "interesting factor" of the attendees, so I hope that the Spanish Drupalistas will consider this option. :)
No straight answer
For better or worse in most of Europe, English (well, American if we're being honest about it) is the intermediate language that people speak. From what I remember, in South America it was Spanish - it makes sense to use the region's 'default intermediate language.'
Largely though people will vote with their feet. If you have DrupalCamp Spain with only 100% Spanish language content then you'll have a smaller pool of speakers and attendees, which will in turn affect sponsorship, attendance figures and relevance. But that's no problem if you're only targetting it at the local community though.
I agree. I think a majority
I agree. I think a majority english session camp can still serve the local community by including a local track with stress on introductions and local issues.
100% Native is fine, if your only interested in the natives. But my gut tells me, if you aim for 50/50 or less English, your just going to end up with the majority of the 'English' sessions by native speakers, talking to other native speakers in English.
As you said, i think it comes down to scale and relevance - if you want to be big and relevant, its going to have to be mostly in English.
Big? In DrupalCamp Spain 2010
Big? In DrupalCamp Spain 2010 we was almost 400 attendees...in was the first DrupalCamp in Spain. We was the biggest (in number of attendees) of all DrupalCamps ever (i think).
Neurotic web design
One of the biggest, as I
One of the biggest (in Europe), as I think Drupalcamp Kiev? was even bigger.
Wow, i didn't know it was
Wow, i didn't know it was that big! The site says 350, but still thats a big number (Drupalcamp Colorado was 314). I understand there was 40 sessions? of which 4 or 5 were in English, so about 10% to 15%.
Do you have stats on how many attendees were native spanish speakers vs other languages and if they spoke english? MIght be worth sending out a questionnaire to the attendees asking for their input and if they would attend another camp in Spain if there were 15% in English, or even 90% in English.
40 sessions, right, 5 in
40 sessions, right, 5 in English.
We didn't ask in the registration for the country (It was there but not mandatory), but maybe a survey could be useful.
Sponsors: It's possible to
Sponsors: It's possible to have foreign sponsors if they are interested in improving itself in Spain. In addition I believe the purpose of a DrupalCamp is to develop and share local knowledge and stimulate the adoption of drupal in Spanish companies.
This doesn't mean that the sessions can't be taught in English, only that we must focus more in Drupal's development on local level. Also the attendees are those who vote for the meetings and it's important
I agree you will still
I agree you will still attract sponsors, but i would argue that you would attract more (at higher rates) if the attendees matched their target audience (English speaking Drupal developers), but i could be wrong. As training days become a larger and larger part of Drupalcons/camps i would again expect that you could attract more trainers if the core audience could speak/understand English.
I assumed that Drupal meetups (not camps) were designed to develop and share local knowledge, while Drupal camps were to develop and share knowledge with a wider community (say europe or even the world) as well as showcase tallent.
I 100% agree that a Camp should also introduce Drupal to local businesses and interested local developers/themers etc, but offering a introductory track and business track in the native language, not by making the majority of the camp native.
I agree, i'm not suggesting that the Camps are in some way 'banning' sessions being in English - but unless you attract English understanding / speaking attendees then will never have that choice. To make someone fly to another country and pay for a hotel, your going to need more than 10% sessions or even 30% sessions that they can understand.
Drupalcamp Madrid 2011 Idiomas
Buenas :)
Este punto es muy importante y delicado a la vez. Si os sirve de algo nuestra experiencia ahi va:
Cuando nos reunimos para el kick-off del Drupalcamp Berlin 2011 hubo bastante discusión sobre el tema de los idiomas.
Al final y por votación acordamos que el idioma oficial del Drupalcamp Berlin seria inglés. La website será en inglés como default + español, francés y alemán.
Si hay voluntarios/as que desean traducir la website a otros idiomas lo pueden hacer, siempre que haya alguien que se haga responsanble de la edición.
Las sesiones van a ser en inglés y si hay sesiones en cualquier otro idioma que sean votadas por los asistentes también se harán (da igual en qué idioma)
Tened en cuenta que somos 10 personas en el team organizador, de las cuales Pascal es francés, yo española y los demás todos alemanes.
Creo que por eso podemos y queremos complicarnos más con lo de los idiomas. Depende mucho, creo, de si tenéis gente dentro del equipo organizador que
se haga responsable del tema idiomas.
Ventajas: como ya han comentado los demás: sponsors, speakers, attendees.
P.ej. no creo que mucha gente de Francia, Italia o España vayan a venir a un Drupalcamp en Berlin si las sesiones son en alemán.
Por eso insistimos mucho en hacerlo en inglés aunque para nosotros es mucho más trabajo :)
Mar
Mar Rodriguez
rodriguez.mar@posteo.de
I agree we should improve the
I agree we should improve the number of sessions in English that were done in Barcelona (5 of 40), but I think that making a drupalcamp spain fully in English would be a very long shot... I'd rather see a track (or maybe two) in English, ie if we have a total of 40 sessions, at least 10 (ideally 15) in English.
In one side we have potential sponsors and attendees from all over Europe and in the other we have local community grow, we should find a balance, although it is impossible to make everybody happy!
I think that this discussion belongs to the kick off of the drupalcamp spain 2011, answering "what do we want accomplish with the event?" will answer this particular issue as well
Fully agree with Mar
Hi, I consider it's more important to focus on the quality of the sessions than the language. In my environment, most people is use to follow these kind of technical meetings in english. No matter the language but the content! ;-)
RafaBlanes
contacto@ellibronegrodelprogramador.com
Agile Drupal Development and more...
Mejor consolidar
Es totalmente cierto que cuanto más inglés se use más internacional será el evento, pero, ¿realmente buscamos eso? Bajo mi punto de vista, y después de lo que se habló en algunos momentos de la DrupalCampSpain 2010, se busca sobre todo formar un grupo local a nivel nacional más fuerte e identificado.
Uno de los objetivos de la Asociación, y por tanto de este evento, es dar a conocer Drupal como software, acercar más gente hacia esta herramienta y consolidar la incipiente comunidad. Muchos de los 400 asistentes de Barcelona eran novatos, gente que estaba empezando.
Potenciar las sesiones en inglés puede ser buena idea, pero no debería ser la tarea principal. Desafortunadamente, creo, en España utilizar el inglés para eventos y reuniones es algo que aleja a la gente en vez de acercarla, pero eso ya es tema de otro debate :)
http://twitter.com/delineas
a_c_m's Proposal
I fully agree with a_c_m's proposal for all the reasons which I've already explained in my post.
"The camp is promoted as an English language camp with a native langage 'Track' is i.m.o the best way to attract people of other countries and to consolidate the regional/local community at the same time.
The most important thing is the quality of the learning, exchange and networking experience this kind of event delivers. I think most of the people who work in the development, programming environment have more or less english skills.
Mar
Mar Rodriguez
rodriguez.mar@posteo.de
Idiomas por ámbitos
No he participado en ningún Drupalcamp, y por consiguiente puede que me equivoque, pero creo que un encuentro de estas caracteristicas debería tener dos objetivos fundamentales, pertenecientes a ámbitos distintos:
Ayudar a ampliar las habilidades y los conocimientos técnicos de la gente que trabaja con Drupal, ya sea a nivel de desarrollador, themer o administrador.
Fomentar la creación-desarrollo de la comunidad de usuarios y la implantación-consolidación de Drupal en la comunidad local (en este caso en el país donde tiene lugar el evento).
Creo que las conferencias relacionadas con el punto 1 podrían ser prevalentemente en inglés, ya que son de contenido más puramente técnico -y a las que estaría más interesada en asistir gente de otros países-, mientras que las relacionadas con el punto 2 sería más lógico que fuesen en español, ya que fundamentalmente irían dirigidas a usuarios y empresas locales.
Creo que de esta manera se podría lograr un buen equilibrio entre lo local y lo internacional, evitando posiciones extremas que no tendrían demasiado sentido.
Esto me parece lógico. Ademas
Esto me parece lógico. Ademas que deberiamos buscar tener un equilibrio entre lo técnico y lo básico. Porq es verdad que las técnicas de mas profundizacion en drupal suelen ser en ingles y en la anterior drupalcamp tuve la impresión que al ser en español algunas de las sesiones eran mas básicas o informativas.
Debemos tener en cuenta El trabajo que se tendrá al mantener el contenido de toda la drupalcamp en ingles y español. Y tambien que el personal de staff debe dar información en los dos idiomas y otros detalles.
No digo que no se pueda tener sesiones en ingles sino ¿que mas ofreceremos en ingles?
Spain in May is very atracive to Europeans...
I think that is the main issue with the internationalization of the tracks: a DrupalCamp in Spain in Spring or early summer is very attractive as the beginning of a nice holiday retreat in "La Costa del Sol", if the language of the sessions is "right". So if we aim to get as many people as possible, that could be the right approach.
Personally I don't mind the language of the tracks but I agree with the fact that the English language is a barrier in Spain... very sad but true.
We could always open the sessions selection process and let each presenter to decide on the language they will deliver it. If there are many foreign drupalers interested in coming to Spain around the DrupalCamp dates they may present their sessions in English. If they are good they will be selected and there will be tracks in English. So, may be we should let nature take its course.
In other order of things I don't believe we would attract as many foreign sponsors as we may think becoming more "international". Some will come, but few. It is true that Drupal is growing in Spain but I have the feeling that the market here is nowhere close to what is going on in other European countries. Just a feeling. It would be good to have more info about this. Besides that, getting a foreign sponsor will require much more work that getting a local one. We must think in terms of efficiency here.
Very interesting issue Alex ;-)
Jorge
Indeed, but we have to think
Indeed, but we have to think that we have a planification issue here, as we won't be able to know the sessions that we will have at the end (remember that sessions are voted by attendees) we have no way to "promise" non-spanish attendees that there will be enough english sessions in the event.
we won't be able to know the
This is exactly the feedback loop i'm talking about. The people the event attracts will be because of the sessions, and the sessions you get will be due to the people you attract.
It is the tone and marketing of the event that will dictate its makeup. That decision is one that is made early in the planning process, not a reaction to sessions as they arrive.
It seems for the rest of europe (from anecdotal evidence here) has chosen to encourage and intergrate with the wider Druapl community (with more sessions in English), where as Spain has chosen to focus more on local issues (with 90% in Spanish). Which is 100% fine, but i wanted to raise the issue anyway and gauge public opinion on the 'best practice'.
One other alternative that came to mind was 'International days', so the first day (or days) of the Camp are local focus, with the last day (or days) having much heavier international sessions (in English).
translation
Maybe if a person can give a good session but only has the ability to do so in Spanish someone can volunteer to translate?
To create a bilingual situation? This way no one loses out and every body gains.
I think a translator is
I think a translator is probably unlikely as well as disruptive, but dual sides (as i suggested in my original post) would be quite doable as long as presenters got their slides submitted early enough.
I agree with a_c_m
Translators would be more a burden than a help.
Jorge
I think that in DrupalCon
I think that in DrupalCon Barcelona there was some kind of simultaneous interpretation at some specific sesions.
But that will force us to choose a venue with this feature (Citilab has it) and hire people to manage it.... I will post it later when the place has been decided, but in my opinion, we should focus a great effort in getting a free venue.
I like very much the idea of
I like very much the idea of an international day or journey...
My experience as a
My experience as a non-spanish speaker is that I was very happy with the way the Drupalcamp in Barcelona was organized.
Let people submit sessions in english or in Spanish and see who will attend.
This is the only way I think to attract people from both sides. In Drupalcamps there should be an agreement for both.
Also make sure that at least the authors of the English sessions that are submitted know the confirmation long before the drupalcamp (3 weeks?)? Maybe just do this for all sessions submitted before a certain date? Sessions submitted after this date cannot be guaranteed?
Thank for your point of view
Thank for your point of view Nick!
At least we should put a lot more of effort in doing a decent bilingual website for the event :)
Opinión desde un sitio donde todos hablamos 2 idiomas...
Respondiendo a la cuestión inicial:
A simple question with far reaching consequences - At a DrupalCamp in a non English speaking country (e.g. Spain), what should be the primary language ?
Porqué no dejamos que las cosas "fluyan"...?
Mejor no fijar directrices ("prohibido prohibir")...
Que cada ponente exponga en el idioma que prefiera (supongo que tendrá claro a que colectivo de dirige) ......
(¿y si los de DRUPAL.CAT proponemos una sesión de difusión de la asociación... en catalán? !!! ¿o en vasco, gallego o cheli?)
Saludos
Saludos
Isaac.el.Cec
- Temas DRUPAL: http://drupal6.propium.org
- Güep profesional: http://www.jramonet.org
Que la naturaleza siga su curso :-)
Podríamos promover el uso del inglés con una web bilingüe y promocionada fuera de España a ver qué número de sesiones recibimos en inglés. Pero habrá que estar preparados ;-)
Jorge
Estoy de acuerdo, porq
Estoy de acuerdo, porq podríamos querer 15 sesiones en ingles pero luego no tener quien las de o proponga alguna :) se puede probar. Nos puede echar una mano a_c_m con la difusión.
Las votaciones serán entre
Las votaciones serán entre todos los asistentes asi que eso se decidirá en su momento, lo que si podemos hacer es promoverlo, Alex ya está fichado para que proponga alguna :D
Difusion del evento fuera de España vamos a tener este año, no os preocupeis por eso ;)
I was never suggesting that
I was never suggesting that we prohibit sessions in Spanish, my point was :
If your not interested in international sessions (e.g. by the author of the module instead of someone who used it), then going with the flow will get you there. But if you want to promote a more diverse crowd of people (and there for a more diverse set of sessions) then its something you have to help happen. Going with the 'flow' is easy, but its not always the best way to get where you want to be.
The root of my question about language is, i suppose, where/what do we want a Drupalcamp to be. A platform for showcasing local tallent and expanding the knowledge of the local Drupal community (from internal and external experts) or a supercharged local Drupal meetup with more people?
what is the goal of the camp?
As several people have said, I think you have to consider the goal (or goals) of the camp.
As Dries recently wrote camps are an amazing way to grow the local interest/knowledge of Drupal. I see that as an important goal and is part of why we sponsored 4 Drupalcamps in 2009 in Central/South America in spite of the fact that we are unlikely to do projects in that part of the world and didn't attend.
But, if one of the goals is to bring in an international audience and some special speakers then it is likely you will need to use the language they are comfortable hearing and presenting. As an example, Webchick is unlikely to present in Spanish ;) In total I have lived in Spanish speaking countries for over a year at this point, but would not be comfortable presenting in Spanish. It's a very difficult thing, and I'm always amazed by the folks at Drupalcamps/Drupalcons who present in a non-native language.
Perhaps both goals can be reached simultaneously, though by having tracks in both languages. Doing one or two tracks in one language, and one or two tracks in another language might let you get the best of both worlds. This would be tricky and would be more successful if you have clear language from the beginning stating exactly what the ratio of sessions in each language will be.
knaddison blog | Morris Animal Foundation