At last night's Drupal meetup we had what I thought was a great and necessary conversation about conflict resolution in the Drupal NYC community. One of the requests expressed during that conversation was that continuing problems (like sexism in the #drupal-nyc channel) be brought to the larger Drupal NYC community, most folks not being constantly logged into IRC. Folks expressed that this would allow us to deal with issues internally and keep everyone informed. I am posting about an incident in #drupal-nyc today in the interest of doing so.
I logged into the #drupal-nyc chat room at 1:50pm EST today to see a conversation about the conflict resolution conversation at the meetup. A few minutes later someone resposted a link to an image that litwol had earlier linked to in relation to that conversation. Here's the image: original link and reposted in case that disappears.
Conversation continued in which some people in the channel (including myself) objected to the image and some debate about whether it was indeed disrespectful or sexist or not. litwol said that I completely misinterpreted his actions and later said that he'd try to be more politically correct next time, followed by a winky.
I will be posting my full notes from last night's conversation soon, but one of the things mentioned was that folks who have IRC channel ops or Drupal NYC g.d.o manager privileges should be expected to uphold things like the IRC guidelines, the IRC topic that says that things should be kept "clean and respectful," and the statement against violence posted in this community. I don't think this type of behavior meets those expectations, being not only a continuation of the sexism that made last night's conversations necessary at all but also (in my opinion) a mockery of community efforts to build a stronger, safer, more welcoming and inclusive community that will allow us to get on to the business of discussing and collaborating on Drupal.
I requested permission from participants in the conversation to post the logs but didn't receive approval from everyone, hence the lack of logs. I have also omitted the names of everyone in the conversation except for litwol, because I think it's necessary to state who was involved, especially because of litwol's position of power in this community and because litwol has been approached again and again about the need to stop behavior like this in the IRC channel, to no avail.
Comments
tangential point
this illustrates one of the reasons I am against this group having its own website. If someone acting like litwol has had control over the hosting, maintenance or any other aspect of our group site, just the process of dealing with that could easily fracture our community in irreversible ways.
At least using community controlled systems gives us a simpler path to remove the problem person from a position of power, and we can focus more on the issues of how we communicate as a community and how we define respect for others and for diversity in our community.
I'd write more but one of my fingers is in a splint and that makes typing difficult
One action item I recall from
One action item I recall from the conversation last night was to list more clearly on the group homepage who the group admins and IRC channel ops are.
Another might be to make sure we have channel ops who are clearly identifiable and present in #drupal-nyc.
Currently the main "New York City" block lists litwol as the manager. He expressed today in #drupal-nyc that he no longer wishes to be the group manager. I think the "manager" title is somewhat symbolic, as we have many group organizers and people with administrative privileges within the group.
However, I think it's appropriate for us to change that primary manager so that it reflects someone who is more in that role than litwol is. We can have a g.d.o. admin chance that relatively easily, and as the group manager, litwol can do it himself.
I think we should discuss who that person should be. I would be ok with taking the role in the interim until we have some consensus behind who the right person is (though again, I think it's somewhat trivial). I think similarly important is that our group admins and irc channel ops are appropriate people.
I would rather discuss this in person
and agree as a group.
Guess who is listed on the
Guess who is listed on the box on the right as the manager of this group? What does it say about our group that someone who is insensitive to women is in charge?
I don't entirely blame litwol- after all, movies, TV shows, and music portray stereotyping and objectification of women as hilarious. But Drupal NYC should be above that. It should be a professional community where every human being feels comfortable.
But we need to think about the power structure of this group. Who is a manager? How did they get in that position? Are they the best person to help bring the community together?
Last night during the discussion, it was clear that people weren't willing to call litwol out. Yes, he's already gotten a lot of flack for it, but he's still the manager of the group.
I agree. thank you!
Sorry I could not make it to the meeting. I mentioned this issue in IRC earlier and was going to post about it here. Thanks for beating me to it. This situation is terrible and we need to call people out on their disrespect and make it clear that we as a community will demand respect for diversity and all segments of our community. A start would be if litwol would remove himself as primary manager (which ezra correctly points out is more of a symbolic thing since we have other people with manager privs in the group). His doing so voluntarily and not forcing this to a vote at our next meeting might at least demonstrate that he understands the issues at hand.
I'd nominate winston/peter to be the primary manager if he's willing to take it on.
I'd rather have some things not get done for a while and create a vacuum for someone else to step up and fill than see litwol continue in a leadership role in our community.
I think we're good now on one front, at least
With tonight's awesome changes to the OG details block, the NYC group's "Group organizers" block now lists 8 organizers instead of one manager.
More from the blogosphere
More from the blogosphere
You guys and girls are just
You guys and girls are just making the group look really really bad by posting this on the group's page. This should be settled on IRC were it originated not on the web were most people don't even go on IRC in the first place. I am very disappointed in OPs actions, this thread will just grow bacteria and I will not reply to anyone so don't waste your time responding to me here. If you have an opinion on my statement, talk to me on IRC at #drupal-nyc NOT here!
bending technology to fit businesses.
http://geekfeminism.wikia.com
http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Harming_the_community
"Women who complain about sexism in the geek community are sometimes accused of harming the community in various ways and are thus silenced. Examples of claimed harm include discouraging other women from joining, focusing on the actions of a minority of participants, or giving the mainstream media an opportunity to criticise the community. Women will be told that there are more productive ways to change the geek culture. "
The IRC room is part of the community. Litwol is part of THIS community and his actions in IRC affect this.
You beat me to it! Thanks to
You beat me to it!
Thanks to jackalope for that resource.
We're a do-ocracy,
We're a do-ocracy, right?
Well this is me un-checking "auto-join" on #drupal-nyc and removing myself from this group. I'm sick of seeing the emails go by, the ignorant and disgusting comments in IRC and of giving attention-seekers what they want and getting sucked into the conversation. I admire those who try to help people understand where they are going wrong but I don't feel like there is much point to it.
This all has been going on for way too long. Call me back when we unhesitatingly denounce and shun those who are vile and unrepentantly offensive. Then I will be happy to be a part of the group and perhaps then will feel good about making it to a meetup. If you want someone who is not afraid to /kick then I am your woman, although there are many more in line before me to have any sort of op/maintainer privileges in this community.
Until then, I hope you all Tweet about DrupalCamp and similar so that I'm kept aware.
I think the votes on this
I think the votes on this thread speak for themselves. People who feel uncomfortable with sexism are not welcome. They are stirring up the pot. Frankly, I'm tempted to not participate anymore. None of my co-workers or colleagues participate. There is a whole nuther Drupal community in NYC that isn't at the meetings because of stuff like this.
very sad
it seems that you are right. diversity is no longer respected here. we've gone from do-ocracy to dude-ocracy
my two cents...
I haven't been going into the #drupal-nyc IRC room for very long but in the time I have I haven't seen any comments that I found to be offensive. For the most part it seems people are too busy working to get involved in chit chat. I think that everyone needs to take a step back and realize, if you don't like whats going on don't enter the room.
Men will be men, just because you lack a sense of humor and make a big to do about this doesn't mean anything will change. In fact you are playing into the stereotype of a feminist BY making such a big deal about it. If you really consider yourself a strong independent woman you need to grow thicker skin and just brush it off. I'm speaking to you as a woman who has worked primarily with MEN my entire work career. I've worked in blue color fabrication shops with portuguese men who would talk about sex and flirt with me all day long. I've worked at tattoo shops where the men are MUCH more rude and inconsiderate and are actually CONVINCED that women can't do shit. These drupal geeks, including litwol, are so TAME compared to that. I think this discussion just needs to end. You're not gonna change people all you can do is change yourself.
I realize that I'm probably making some enemies among the women in this community right now but it had to be said.
Get a clue
I'm not on IRC virtually ever, but really, "men will be men"? This makes feminism look bad? It's 2010, get a clue.
"If you don't like it, don't enter" is hardly showing a community mentality. Whether some other people in some other community have different standards is beside the point and certainly did NOT have to be said.
Jean Gazis
www.jeangazis.com
www.webhostny.com
Why do you think I'm here on
Why do you think I'm here on this thread? I sure didn't get here because I'm some ninny who is offended by every little thing. I'm involved in communities where there are very few women. Ironically, when I got involved with guns and hunting I thought I would experience more sexism, but the men have been more than welcoming.
It's funny because I thought this would be just the charge. It's good at least someone had the guts to say it. I think this is what litwol and many others have been thinking all along- the women who are offended should get some thicker skin. We're just a bunch of sensitive bleeding heart liberal hippies who blanch at the idea that someone might make fun of us.
We'll I'm none of the above and part of the reason I'm so willing to participate is that I'm already a public figure associated with some things people find a little off-color, so I've got nothing to lose. Some of my other female (and male) colleagues don't want to get dragged into the mud- they'll simply not participate in this group.
There aren't many women involved in guns or fabrication because most women frankly aren't that interested in those things, but the women in the Drupal community are missing because frankly it's an unprofessional environment where women aren't taken seriously.
I could care less of I or litwol or whoever wants to make sexist jokes at home. I leave my offensive (and frankly offtopic) stuff at home and I expect others to do the same. I expect leaders in a professional community to be well...professional.
whoppie you struck nail on
whoppie you struck nail on it's head and i just couldn't overlook it. Here is where all of... well everyone's arguments fall apart so let me just come out and say it: "We're just a bunch of sensitive bleeding heart liberal hippies who blanch at the idea that someone might make fun of us." <- excuse me? of you? when did i ever make fun of you ? lets get things straight, i never targeted you, i never targeted any member of the community, i never targeted women. still with me? I found something online that i found funny and i laughed at the notion of the artifact that i found, nowhere did i address anyone disrespectfully nor offensively and yet you (and others) took it upon themselves to perceive my laughter at an artifact as a personal offense. I think you and others are wrong in that aspect.
Not disregarding possibility of ignorance or plain being wrong on my part, I urge you to be an educator.
------------------
Sometimes interesting things appears on http://litwol.com
Dude, it was a hypothetical
Dude, it was a hypothetical sentence. Read it again. I never made any accusation. Who's over-sensitive now?
Here's a clue for life: don't post things that make fun of women (a group I happen to be part of) in a professional environment and you won't have problems like this. The fact you've written this disjointed apologia speaks the fact that haven't taken a lesson from this incident. Just because you didn't make the image doesn't mean it's something perfectly fine to post in chat.
Instead of resigning you now say in IRC that we should put the box listing you as manager in a less-prominent spot.
I have no interest in thought-policing sexism, but I don't think it should have a place out in the open in our community and I think the leaders of the community should be professional and inclusive.
knock it off already
it is obvious that you are making people uncomfortable. so stop it.
you may have an awesome sense of humor. follow the example of george carlin, chris rock, dave chappelle, and other comedic greats by saving it for the right time and place.
thanks!
me: http://aaroncouch.info
my work: http://nuams.co
Familiar Unacceptable Pattern
While we're dealing with a larger issue of inappropriate content that's goes beyond than a single person I have to respectfully point out that there is a pattern here with you, Oleg.
The pattern is that you do something that many respected members of the community find inflammatory, people try to explain why your conduct is offensive and/or inappropriate, and you don't understand. The conversation eventually snowballs into a larger conflict. You still don't understand what the problem is and egg people on with "what did I do wrong" kinds of comments.
The most problematic result of this behavior is that great contributors decide to stop or never begin participating.
Some examples of this pattern from the past:
Again, the biggest problem is that this prevents great people from participating and diverts energy away from productive Drupal work and towards addressing offensive content (which is important but ideally not how we spend so much of our time).
@nomonstersinme I strongly disagree with the comment that "men will be men". On a personal level it's disappointing that you have low standards for men and professionally it's unacceptable to me that we can't have a safe space here, largely because of conflicts repeatedly instigated by the same person,
"someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into a desired emotional response" -- I can't speak to your intentions, Oleg but that is consistently the result you affect. You act like a troll. The fact that a few people usually come out of the woodwork to say it isn't a problem certainly doesn't help.
So what should we do to prevent contributors from being turned away? I'm skeptical that simply kicking folks from IRC is really the solution, but it's probably part of it. A larger part is that we don't settle for having an unprofessional space. This is unacceptable.
I've been trying to ignore
I've been trying to ignore the emails that are still coming in from this thread as I don't want to get caught in a pointless back and forth. However, it's clear that your reply, Ezra, is well thought out and is from a productive place so I thought I would clarify my thoughts on how to move forward.
You have been far more involved in these situations as a mediator than I have, so you have a perspective that I may not. However, I come at this having, contrary to the doubts of nomonstersinme, worked with and known personally many people who have the same mentality of Oleg and the people who defend his actions.
Kicking folks from IRC for being a troll is just par for the course in IRC - I'd like to think that the only reason litwol hasn't been is that there is the complication of him being a community manager. I think it's just logical, despite it being unfortunate and unsavory, that he be removed as the manager and from the g.d.o group and #drupal-nyc altogether. I understand your skepticism but I think that the only thing we can do is show no tolerance for offensive behavior of this nature.
If we are concerned about where to draw the line, perhaps we should imagine for this moment that we are a workplace. Were that the case, we would all have lawsuits to file should we choose to.
We can't control the thoughts and actions of others and we don't want to prohibit people from joining the community. The only way that we can control what happens in our "space" is by reacting as the majority of communities do - by removing those who don't respect the rules of the community.
one more try
I'm going to try one more time to explain the issue to you.
Content you have posted to the group's IRC channel was viewed by others as insulting, disrespectful and inappropriate.
You are more than welcome to post offensive stuff to your friends, but you must accept that the group's channel is a place where people of many different genders, ideologies, ethnic backgrounds gather.
The problem with how you've acted and what you've posted is not that one segment of the community is too thin skinned to have a sense of humor, the problem is that what you post is only funny to one very small segment of the community and that humor is at the expense of another segment. (And to many of us it really is just not funny)
This sort of thing is not acceptable in a community that respects and values diversity.
You posted an insulting image url as an intentional statement about your critics. You provoke a response and then act shocked when those folks express their outrage, going as far as accusing them of unfairly attacking you.
This sort of thing is not acceptable in a community that respects and values diversity.
You have given the impression that because you have done work to help this group grow, that because you found us fancy digs for our meetups that somehow gives you license to disregard the opinion of those who feel insulted by you.
This sort of thing is not acceptable in a community that respects and values diversity.
If you need to preface something with a disclaimer that it is "not safe for work" you need to understand that translates for most of us into "not appropriate for our community." Your actions have made many people feel uncomfortable in their own community and you have shown that you feel you have more right to belong in the community than them.
This sort of thing is not acceptable in a community that respects and values diversity.
Get it?
common courtesy
"Not disregarding possibility of ignorance or plain being wrong on my part, I urge you to be an educator."
Then don't disregard it and educate yourself: Most people learn by kindergarten or so that when someone (let alone multiple people, repeatedly) tell you you've hurt or offended them, you apologize. This is a basic fact of every human society.
This is nothing to do with the drupal community or its governance or lack thereof, and it isn't about admitting to wrongdoing. It is a basic rule of getting along with others.
Jean Gazis
www.jeangazis.com
www.webhostny.com
I want to put forth an
I want to put forth an observation, and I welcome anyone to disagree with me on any point of this.
Having watched things unfold over the past few months I've noticed that there are two issues that are festering in the NYC community that often end up being brought up in the same conversations, and often are not being treated as distinct issues. The first is the issue of how is our group supposed to govern ourselves and handle issues as they arise. The second is the issue of sexism.
My observation is that there seems to be a divide over which issue is the most important to address right now, and since the two issues are often being coupled it seems to be leading to, in my view, misunderstandings.
Drupal as a project is a do-ocracy, and I know I've said this many many times in many different contexts, I think that works excellent for code management but fails us utterly in community management, especially when it comes to the local communities. Do-ocracy provides little inherit structure or guidance regarding how to manage a local community.... which means we are left to define these things for ourselves and up until this point, very little about how our community is managed has been explicitly defined. Prior to last night's discussion at the meetup, there had been little discussion regarding community matters such as ideal ways to resolve conflicts and how people with g.d.o admin status on our group and people with IRC ops were selected... largely because up until fairly recently, it didn't seem important to have this structure in place... After last night's discussion at the meetup, I'd say that these things are in the process of being defined but we're not fully there yet.
Meanwhile, the issue of sexism within the community is still a pressing issue that needs to be addressed. There are people in our community who are very frustrated and with very good reason. However, it's my belief that things aren't being handled in a timely fashion over confusion on what the best way to handle the situation actually is, and who exactly is supposed to be handling it. Our lack of community structure is impeding our ability to act. I have seen very little evidence to say that the inaction is because people wish to condone sexist behavior.
I do believe that sexism in the Drupal (and larger geek) community do need to be publicly talked about, however I also have concerns over the way this happens. It's been my observation over years of running in geek circles that often times at the point where sexism is brought up, the affected are at such a point of frustration that they're not willing or able to exchange in an educational dialogue to explain why they're being negatively affected by certain behaviors. Much of the sexist behavior I've observed over the years is due to ignorance about how certain behaviors effect women rather than any sort of deliberate sexism. How do you overcome ignorance? With education. However, to educate requires patience and persistence and when you're feeling hurt and disempowered, that patience doesn't come easily.
In the end, I believe what we need in our community right now is patience and involvement so we can deal with all of these issues and get back to doing what our community is supposed to be doing.... talking about Drupal.
Offering a way forward
I'm really new to Drupal NYC, but I have almost twenty years of experience at leading and organizing voluntary communities. This post is on to an important idea, that is reinforced by the size of Drupal NYC. The larger the organization, the more it needs some formal structure. Conflict is further fed in organizations by ambiguity. We have some agreed standards, but no process for how to proceed when they are broken or when new issues arise.
Building on the discussion we had this week at the meetup, I offer [DRAFT] Conflict and Community Standards. I hope that it will help the community reach consensus about how to act in general conflicts and when community standards are broken. It's a wiki page, so I hope that it will evolve to reflect a general consensus.
I hope that we can work through this and refocus on Drupal.
Drupaling in NYC since 2009!
In this case, the education ship has sailed.
nikkiana, I agree with you that patient education are important elements in combating sexism and other forms of prejudice and discrimination. Education is something that I fully support and engage in as part of my politics, activism, and organizing.
However, at a certain point education reaches its limits. People have approached litwol again and again, in all sorts of ways ranging from tremendous patience and kinship to anger and frustration, and yet he still behaves in the same way. He still refuses to either stop his behavior or acknowledge that he's done anything wrong. With this much education I can only assume that he's willfully ignoring what everyone has said to him and asked of him.
If someone without a history of sexism (or other disrespectful or discriminatory behavior) made a mild blunder in IRC, I'd certainly take the patient and educational route. I'd express and explain why something was offensive. I wouldn't be out to change their minds or modify their behavior in all settings (though hey, if that happened, that would be awesome) but would be satisfied with them merely not saying that sort of thing again in the Drupal NYC community.
That's not the case here, and I in fact think that the "let's be patient, let's educate" approach enables the continuation of destructive and disrespectful behavior. If someone continues to be approached or reproached about their actions and all they get is infinite patience and defense from others in the community who claim he feels really, really bad about the whole thing, then as we've witnessed here he's just going to continue. At some point we've got to stop coddling, stop enabling, and start saying that we're done with it. I think we've been past that point with this situation for a long time now.
And frankly, I'm not feeling hurt or disempowered. Nor am I feeling scared. I'm feeling completely infuriated, mind-boggled, and disgusted that this community has allowed and continues to tacitly condone this sort of behavior from the group manager after sexist and homophobic violent threats against a woman in the community have occurred. I mean, seriously, people?
There is nothing to talk about
sexism is not tolerated and there is nothing to talk about. Just ban 'em. I just did with skyredwang and will do with everyone else necessary.
Edit: I tried but bakery is giving me problems.
'get a clue' 'attention
'get a clue'
'attention seeker'
'Instead of resigning you now say in IRC that we should put the box listing you as manager in a less-prominent spot.' <- actually box listing the manager, he has already agreed to pass on the responsibility, as he has been working on this for some time now. It's not just about a symbol, it's about a valid decision regarding a person who is capable of taking care of all the administrative tasks that come with the position.
I agree something happened here that offended people, and I think the issue should be, and is being addressed.
All these personal attacks and flustered comments are just making us look like a bunch of flustered n00bs.
This community, is just like any other community in that it has all walks of life in it. People WILL be people; how you change the meaning of this doesn't revolve around a whiny complaint on an internet thread. It depends, like Jack has made a point of stating in her blog and otherwise, by taking action. So do it.
How ironic is it that so many people are all of a sudden communicating better because somebody got offended by something on IRC (of all places?)
Everybody here got trolled, get over yourselves. Go do something Drupal-related and prove your worth, man or woman it doesn't matter. Our work in this community speaks for itself.
"All these personal attacks
"All these personal attacks and flustered comments are just making us look like a bunch of flustered n00bs."
Posting sexist pictures of women is just making us look like a bunch of flustered n00bs. Just because it's in a less-visible place, IRC, doesn't make it OK.
"Everybody here got trolled, get over yourselves."
The troll is the group's manager.
"It depends, like Jack has made a point of stating in her blog and otherwise, by taking action. So do it."
What is it exactly that we are supposed to do?
"It's not just about a symbol, it's about a valid decision regarding a person who is capable of taking care of all the administrative tasks that come with the position."
There are numerous other admins perfectly qualified for this post. The ball is in their court to step up and say they want to do this.
Action is happening. It took
Action is happening. It took my "whiny complaint" in this group, if you were referring to my original post, for action to start. I intend to see it through. Not sure what blog post of mine you're referring to, though.
Who, exactly, has to go prove their worth, and why? I hope you're not saying that "you shouldn't discuss sexism in geek communities unless you have made a certain number of 'positive' contributions unrelated to criticising sexism". I'm willing to bet that most of the people speaking out against sexism here do PLENTY with Drupal and would probably have more time to devote to that if they didn't have to stand up and speak up and continue to insist upon a proper community response to destructive time sucks like this situation.
saddened but positive
I am saddened about this latest incident, especially after the progress made at the meetup last night.
I have not read the entire thread - but I recognize the image in question as part of a set of images circulated by email etc. The images are purportedly "motivational posters" and most are offensive to some segment of the population - sometimes there is indeed a thin line between humor and offensiveness (just ask Lenny Bruce) and of course the time and place also play an important part. I actually posted some of these posters (but not the one in question) in an image gallery on my personal site because I thought they were chuckle-worthy. However, it would not occur to me to post them in Drupal-nyc IRC. I am adding the link to put the image into a context, but not to condone its inappropriate use.
I will review Father Sean's efforts and I agree that some formal guidelines can address the frustration of the flexible ethics of a do-ocracy. I think that those of us who are generally mature and have had experience managing and facilitating groups can lend a stabilizing force.
The other component that is required is to educate those who are acting inappropriately. Rather than whacking them, act like a very disappointed parent. If they continue to misbehave, then of course it is appropriate to give them a "time out."
¿ are you netsperienced ?
♥ follow me @decibelplaces ∞
here is one question
Inspired by #partyteam, I am wondering what happen if there is a meetup proposal related to adult industry survey of sites using Drupal, or porn sites utilizing Drupal modules. Particularly, if the meetup proposal includes discussion on how porn sites build their frontpage nude picture gallery; which video modules to use for the sex tapes; how amateurs upload their sex recordings via Drupal services module; and how Ubercart could be hooked up for users to pay for online private chat.
This meetup session will stay strictly professional, however, it requires attendees to be open-minded. If there is enough interest in the adult industry survey of sites using Drupal on the professional level, what will be our community's take on this?
I can only assume that this
I can only assume that this comment in this thread is trolling, but I'll bite, as it feels completely irresponsible to let this go without a clear response.
My take, as a contributor in the Drupal community, an elected member of the Drupal Association, and as an individual: Drupal community resources should never be used to further racism, sexism, or hate. People involved in maintaining Drupal community resources have an obligation to uphold those values.
I suspect that now is the time when we'll hear some of the standard arguments about why pornography is okay; the usual lines like:
The fact that there are technical issues to address in setting up a porn site does not mean you can turn a blind eye to how the technology will be used. That's not open minded; that's not professional; that's choosing to be willfully ignorant.
More importantly, though, what do you seriously hope to gain by asking this obviously loaded question in a thread that has its roots in what can only be described as a repeated history of sexist trolling?
I have no illusions that my comments in this thread will change anyone's mind. For those of you coming across this thread, I want you to know, in no uncertain terms, that the sexist attitudes expressed by a small but vocal number of people in this thread do NOT represent the attitudes of the Drupal community at large. Far too frequently, people stay silent in the face of things that are highly offensive - that only perpetuates the problem.
For those in the thread who advocate education: I absolutely agree; and the only way people learn is to make mistakes, and to talk through them. We all have things we need to learn more about, and issues around gender and race are very difficult. But even schools expel repeat offenders, or people who show a studied disregard for community norms. At a certain point, enough is enough.
Cheers,
Bill
FunnyMonkey
Don't talk, act
Yes, this is trolling, I blocked the user from g.d.o. Next?
Edit: I tried but bakery is giving me problems see http://drupal.org/node/820184
Enough of this
Why is this posted to any webpage? If someone breaks the IRC policies which we laid down after the last altercation then (s)he needs to be removed from IRC for a time or for ever and that's it. I left four IRC operators on #drupal-nyc, do we need more? Tell me. However, you do harm, divide the community etc by blowing this out of proportion.
Oh and if said person has special privileges here then (s)he needs to be stripped of those. Apparently ezra-g is taking over so all is well.
What's the fuss?
+1. http://en.wikipedia.org/w
+1.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)
The point of someone trolling any sort of forum is to get you to talk about the troll. The more you fuss about it, the more that person 'wins.'
Getting ticked off about the problem and complaining about ettiqutte is not how to make the problem better.
M
finally someone that agrees
finally someone that agrees this whole thread blew this whole situation up which can be avoided if the channel ops were active and doing their JOB.
bending technology to fit businesses.
Passing the buck
Why does the blame fall to channel ops rather than to litwol or to others that post sexist or offensive images in the IRC channel with the clear intent to provoke people, like you did on Friday?
Because you are feeding the troll
Because you are feeding the trolls. There are a number of them in this thread and I already filed for the ban of skyredwang but if likewhoa continues like this, he will be the next.
Why It Is Posted
This is posted because sexism appears to have been tolerated and said person still "has special privileges here" which since the allegations appear to be true means that it continues to be.
I imagine that this is also posted here because the incident took place the day after a meetup. I have publicly advocated face to face process in conflict but I can appreciate not being willing to wait four more weeks given the allegations of multiple offenses from several members. In an ideal world, the group would have called a special face to face meeting. Since it doesn't have it's own physical space, in this case using this virtual space may have been the next best thing.
Drupaling in NYC since 2009!
But what is the problem?
chx - I don't understand what's so bad about posting about this.
I don't think that posting about the continuing sexist going-ons is what's harming or dividing the community; it's the sexist going-ons themselves that are dividing and harming the community. I don't think that staying quiet about what was happening would have made anything better; instead, Drupal NYC would just look like a community that tacitly condones sexism. Clearly nothing was going to be done about this until it was made more public and brought to a larger audience than the few people who happen to be in IRC at any given moment.
I also don't think that anything was blown out of proportion. litwol was the g.d.o NYC manager. He responded to the long discussion at a Drupal NYC meetup that stemmed largely from his actions and allowances in that role by posting a picture mocking feminism and women and asking whether people were holding protest signs like that during the discussion. He did this after years of being similarly problematic about sexism and other issues (see above) AND after a woman was threatened with rape and homophobic and sexist slurs in the same IRC channel. Given this record, I don't think anything was blown out of proportion by creating a single discussion thread in the related group.
It's been posted before but I would refer you to that Geek Feminism wiki post about people who call out sexism publicly being accused of harming the community, which in turn silences them.
because of a group decision
This issue is larger than just an IRC issue. It is an issue of how the group runs and about one specific individual that needs to be educated and removed from a position of leadership in the community.
In a group meetup it was decided that in order to keep the entire community informed and in the interest of transparency that if litwol continued to misbehave, that it would be taken up publicly here.
We can't just strip this person of power without enough discussion, because that person is the primary group manager. If we as a group are going to ask the g.d.o. maintainers to remove him, we need to demonstrate what the problem is. This post is an attempt to do that.
I appreciate that you are concerned about the health of the community and are willing to put in some time to help get things straightened out, but I don't think your statement that having this discussion here is inappropriate is correct.
There has been no decision for ezra-g to take over, we're not sure yet who will become the primary group admin, that will come out of this discussion and the others that have been posted recently.
Also, for historical reference, it is good to have this here, so future members of the group can see that we are serious if we tell them they are acting in a way that is not appropriate. Finally, given that all too often issues of disrespect for women or other segments of our community get swept under the rug, airing this in public is important and in the long term, healthy for our community.
Things to do
Although I have better things to do than post in here, I just wanted to point out that jacine, jensimmons, webchick, likewhoa, litwol, myself, and a few others in the Drupal New York community had already gotten together and talked about this very issue. We came to the solution of giving ops management to jacine, jensimmons and a few others in #Drupal-NYC. If there are any issues on IRC, let one of the ops know, and the inflicter can easily be kicked/banned. If running ops in #Drupal-NYC is too hard, then we can easily find some additional people who can maintain the responsibility.
Don't get me wrong, I have the utmost respect to anyone who feels offended by what's going on here. I just think there are easier/better ways of dealing with this.
Thanks,
Rob
I agree with everything said
I agree with everything said above. As I stated before, I believe there is reason to be concerned, and existing problems should be addressed and solved. But I still believe this has been blown out of proportion, fingers are being pointed at the slightest disagreement and major problems are being personalized.
Steps have been taken in the way of establishing solutions, but apparently angers are still flaring left and right, and that's not going to do anything but contribute to the problem.
There is still anger and
There is still anger and frustration because this problem has been going on for a very long time, and it took it getting to this level for anything to be done. I'm glad to see that things are getting done at this point, but it's disappointing to see so many people take greater issue with efforts to speak out and demand accountability than with the disrespectful, offensive, and disruptive behaviors themselves.
Again - when you look at the record, at everything that's happened related to and leading up to this post, what is being blown out of proportion? I think that, if anything, these issues have been repeatedly minimized, and when they're given the attention they deserve, people claim that it's not so big a deal.
Your anger and frustration
Your anger and frustration are deserved, maybe. Responding by talking about it more simply serves the aims of the troll who posted the information in the first place.
Think about it this way - if I knew I could call you a certain name, and it would predictably cause a certain response, I may choose to do that just to humor myself.
The only appropriate response is to ignore the troll and deal with the situation at an administrative level. Threads like these are lightning rods, other people reading them are just going to figure out how to push your buttons and make more noise.
M
kind of
Trolls will not be tolerated on g.d.o.
We (both local folks and admins) should publicly note why they were blocked (to deter future misbehavior) and then block them.
One important lesson: If you have problems escalate that to the local leaders. If we aren't helping enough, keep escalating to the drupal.org issue queue for "webmasters." That escalates it to a broad community including Josh and I as webmasters of this site.
knaddison blog | Morris Animal Foundation
_
I'm always curious when those in the offending group claim an offense is being 'blown out of proportion'. Please don't take this the wrong way, I'm not trying to start anything-- but exactly how would you know? I am not part of a racial minority, so I would never lay claim to know when a racial offense is being blown out of proportion. Regardless of my personal empathy, living my entire life as part of a privileged majority, I am simply not capable of perceiving such an offense in the same way as the members of that group. It's no different for gender / misogyny issues.
Having been a female in IT for more years than I care to remember, I can assure you I am not easily offended. I've heard it all over the years and have developed a thick skin. Having said that, I find this latest incident offensive-- the more subtle the offense (a seemingly amusing graphic image with winky) the more insidious it is. And the attempts to silence the offended and the fact that it even has to be discussed in such great detail is even more infuriating than the original incident.
I live on long island and have toyed around with becoming more involved with the NYC group since coming to drupal several years ago. I initially stayed away because it did seem so male centric and I grow weary of being the only female in such gatherings. With the recent increases in female community members I was considering it again-- but then these type of incidents kept me away and likely will for the foreseeable future. I have no choice when it comes to my career-- but I do have a choice with my spare and volunteer time.
Stuff happens-- it always does and always will. It's the response to that crap that sets groups apart. That this behavior has been tolerated for so long, and by not just a regular member but an elevated member, is inconceivable to me. In any place I've worked in the last, oh, say 10 years or so, an image like that would get you unceremoniously escorted out the door. No discussion. No rationalizations. No excuses. No wasted time.
Its actually not that complicated-- you either want to make this group female friendly or not. imo, it seems not. All the education and arguing can take place after the offender has been removed from the group. Or at least, the position of authority.
"I'm always curious when
"I'm always curious when those in the offending group claim an offense is being 'blown out of proportion'."
That is their opinion, and they have a right to express it, just like you have a right to express yours.
"Please don't take this the wrong way, I'm not trying to start anything-- but exactly how would you know?"
In many ways. Being brought up Muslim, living in many different cultures across the world where I was a minority and also, just generally participating in a lot of activism in my life. Being a white male doesn't mean that one doesn't know anything about oppression or unfairness in society.
I don't mean to stir anything up either, but the fact of the matter here is, at this point it's not just about one person and a couple of incidents specific to one kind of problem, such as sexism. This is apparent in many posts prior to this one. The point here, which has been established and is being addressed - properly I may add - is that we need to find a way to administer and properly address such issues.
???
I'm new around here and really don't want to get involved with what appears to be a long running family dispute. So until now I've been trying to ignore the ongoing drupal-nyc sexism stuff. But a nagging question has been rolling around in my head and I just can't keep myself from asking.
On what criteria is the nyc group basing their judgments of what is appropriate or inappropriate language in comments, posts or otherwise?
I'm asking this because it appears to me that there is no definitive standard. There are no apparent guidelines. It appears to me as if the only commenters that are being banned are ones that post comments that someone else (and/or the majority)gets upset about. As opposed to being banned purely for content or based upon direct infraction against declared communal guidelines.
Maybe guidelines do exist and I'm just unaware of their location. If so, please link me.
For now, I'll cite a few examples of what I see as a kind of double-standard in the appropriate/inappropriate argument. Please correct me if I'm wrong. I don't want to get into a tossle with anyone and I don't want to be viewed as trying to stir up an already boiling pot.
Examples:
1. To me the casual and even enthusiastic use of the word "pimp" in the title of this post, no matter how acceptable its use may be in the mainstream lexicon, ignores the very REAL ABUSE of people in the sex trade. "Pimping" is an everyday occurring form of sexism in a subculture defined by authoritarian domination of subordinates (men can be pimped out too). The casual and "hip" use and acceptance by the community of such a word when it is attached to something so blatantly wrong appears to me much worse than the bathroom humor for which others have been so aggressively banned.
2. Although I don't necessarily disagree with this person's viewpoint and certainly think that the placement of this comment was at a minimum bizarre, I can't ignore that the following explanation of why it's a bad idea to have a technical discussion about pornographic websites doesn't hold water:
"The fact that there are technical issues to address in setting up a porn site does not mean you can turn a blind eye to how the technology will be used. That's not open minded; that's not professional; that's choosing to be willfully ignorant."
If we're not to turn a blind eye to how the technology will be used then how do we justify tolerating these sites:
http://mcdonalds.com.au/#/home (Could be offensive to people who disagree with the product and the company's business practices?)
http://www.bricksandstonesgossip.com/ (Could be considered offensive to people who have disdain for celebrated gossip)
http://www.returningheroeshome.org/ (Could be considered offensive to pacifists)
http://www.jonesofwashington.com/ (Could be considered offensive to alcoholics)
http://groups.drupal.org/node/2700 (Could be considered offensive to non-christians)
and for levity http://johntravoltafilms.com/ (this is wrong on more levels than i have time to name ;) )
I'm pointing these sites out simply to illustrate that one person's clean can easily be another person's dirty and vice-versa. We should be very careful of what we declare to be "right" and "wrong".
On the main issue of sexism in the irc and groups.drupal.org/nyc, I'm not taking sides on this debate. To me any form of genuinely intended aggression against another is unevolved and thereby "wrong". However, I also think that if one is going to get into banning and censoring others they should do it with some sort of standard measure.
The real question is: Where are the official guidelines that inform us of where to draw the line?
Its about context
This thread started as a reaction to the continued inappropriate behavior of a group member, the day after the meetup where the issues caused by this member were discussed. The fact is, he was given months to clean up his act. He either doesn't get why his behavior is offensive, which seems unlikely to me, or he doesn't care. I think its abundantly clear through his thoughtless actions that he harbors expressed a disdain for the equality of women in technology; or at least the women (and men) in this community that called him on it. He was banned because this community is not a platform for those views.
You raise a valid question about the use of the work "Pimp", however, this is also not on topic for this thread. Skyred did also raise an interesting question, but in the wrong manner, the wrong place and at the wrong time. This is not about people being offended by the manner of work people are doing, there will always be people around who you disagree with. It is about how people discuss their work in this public forum. Whether you are setting up a video gallery for your church or porn site, the NYC Drupal group is not the place to discuss the content of your work. That is the issue.
More on the issue at hand in this thread, and your guidelines questions, the big one relevant in this situation are the Drupal IRC Guidelines which state in part:
Also, since we are using freenode as our IRC net we have to follow their polcy guidelines, which states in part:
I have a hard time seeing that anyone doesn't want to extend those guidelines to the forum as well.
Finally, we should not lose site of the fact that all recent ban requests were made after multiple instances of offensive behavior, and several warnings People who choose to continually misuse the group's forums and IRC channels to intentionally offend people should not be welcome here. We're not talking about one strike and you're out, we're talking about dealing with patterns of offensive behavior that works to exclude people in a community that is dedicated to inclusivity. No one is asking anyone to give up beliefs or identity, we are just asking you to be considerate of the beliefs and identities of others before you speak or post links to dumb jokes and intentionally offensive images.
"This is how we roll"
Thanks for the reference links and context gnat.
Sorry to be off-topic in the original reply. I was just trying to illustrate that it appeared to me there might be an imbalance in the manner of determining appropriate vs. inappropriate content. Because it appeared to me that certain things were being called out and others not. And I couldn't see how those judgments were being determined.
I guess I was thinking it might be easier to determine what's acceptable and not if there were some kind of "This is how we roll" list of guidelines for newcomers. So whenever the rules the community creates from consensus are being infringed upon one can easily point to them and OP's can simply make the necessary adjustments (i.e warnings, attempts to educate, banning).
Perhaps if some basic structure were in place there may be no need to publicly lobby for OP's to act or REACT as it were.