Posted by techgirlgeek on August 22, 2012 at 9:35am
Hi Ladies -
I've created a new FB Group for Women in Drupal. All posts have been set to private, so another place we can privately discuss issues facing Women in Drupal specifically or technology as a whole. Hope those of you on FB will consider joining us in the group.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/DrupalWomen
Excited about the continued growth of this awesome group of women!
Comments
Hm. Can I ask why this was
Hm. Can I ask why this was done? The name change I get, but forking discussions here into a data coffin that requires you to relinquish an enormous amount of private information to use (not that I have strong feelings about Facebook or anything ;)) seems counter-intuitive to fostering a strong community of women contributors here on on Drupal.org.
This "welcome mat to the larger Drupal community" is and was always the goal of this group, and very much NOT about creating a private "sub" community of women Drupalistas. I'm worried this takes us in a potentially dangerous direction.
Good Point
oh - I think webchick might have a good question there.
Whilst I kinda like the UX I get from a group on Facebook (yes, really!), there is a possibility of the group there becoming a separate, private, enclave away from everyone else. There is certainly the possibility of it appearing at least to differentiate women within the overall community as something unusual. That's not what I would want. I have enough of that in my non-Drupal life!
My intention was definitely
My intention was definitely not to fork. I think VERY Drupal specific stuff should continue here. Just another place to "meet". Also, there's always been a FB presence, but the gal hasn't been very involved in it, so just created a group with the new name.
Very good conversation, though not an easy one
I wasn't at DrupalCon Munich, but I have been in the Drupalchix Drupal.org group for a few years, and also on its Facebook and Twitter outposts. When the name change happened here and on the Facebook outpost for this group, I merely hopped in because I saw activity. I find that different kinds of conversations happen on different platforms, and when a group (like Drupalchix) is important to me, I usually tune into it wherever it has a presence.
I am a Facebook-hater. But I work with the nonprofit community, and so I have to be on FB somewhat to support my clients, because orgs' constituents and donors are on FB and some good work happens there. I've had several email, open-source-based lists move to various proprietary platforms (LinkedIn, FB, others), and there is usually activity in multiple places when there's enough interest.
I wish this group was more active here. I wonder if, for some people, Facebook will make it easier for them to contribute because they are already using it heavily, and can see others' pics/info more easily, etc. Perhaps it helps reduce some of the feelings of intimidation that I know some women still experience in Drupal community groups. Angie, I totally get it and totally agree that it's a data coffin. But I would also like to see more active conversations and more engagement, and if that happens on FB, then at least it's happening at all.
In any case, I think this is a very valid conversation to be having.
Yeah, actually, I should tone
Yeah, actually, I should tone down my Facebook angst, since this isn't really about Facebook at all.
What it is about is a few things, which we very deliberately set out not to do when we first made this group:
1) The FB group is a closed, moderated group, and limited to women only, rather than an open group with membership welcome to both women and their advocates and supporters. IMO this sends the wrong message, as increasing the number of women contributors and making women feel welcome in the Drupal community is a global responsibility.
2) Being off Drupal.org relegates women to a "sub" community, in some sort of "safe space" away from the main Drupal community, whereas this group's intent has always been about making the global Drupal community a "safe space" for all participants, male, female, or otherwise, through education and outreach.
3) Since a lot of women are shy or intimidated as they come into the Drupal community, a "sub" community is especially dangerous because it's really easy to just stay there, safe and comfortable among your peers, rather than becoming part of the larger global Drupal community. This works directly against this group's stated aims. It also means that Drupal suffers as a result, as do women who are not out there building their community karma through broader community participation.
4) It makes discussions incredibly hard to follow because there are now two parallel discussion threads for almost any topic, plus discussions taking place only here, and others taking place only there.
You obviously are free to do whatever you want. It's been a very long time since I had bandwidth to take a strong leadership position in this group, and yay for do-ocracy. It's also clear that there are many women using the FB group, several of whom haven't actively participated in this group (or at least not in awhile), and yay for more participation! These are all good things.
I would just really caution you as a leader of this group to try and keep it as purely social as possible, and really try and be cognizant of the natural tendency people there (especially newcomers) are going to have to stick within a "safe space" sub-community. You'll need to be extremely pro-active in pushing those women active in the FB group as much as possible to get involved in the larger Drupal community.
Don't forget the mission. :)
What she said
I agree absolutely with everything that is in this comment.
I am not on Facebook, am barely on Twitter, and every time someone tells me about something I missed because I do not use those two proprietary sites I feel excluded, not to mention annoyed that the Drupal open-source project is using those channels for communication of an important/official/sanctioned nature.
Drupal programmer - http://poplarware.com
Drupal author - http://shop.oreilly.com/product/0636920034612.do
Drupal contributor - https://www.drupal.org/u/jhodgdon
agreeing
I very much agree with webchick that there is a danger of splitting discussions into to many parallel lines - especially when they start going off-topic. And that there is an issue with moving out off the much more clearly stated Drupal community by moving into a walled garden.
But I also see that being active in a community is much easier when one feels comfortable at that place to start with. It can be much easier to ask, to answer, to do things when you understand the culture and the regulars.
To me Facebook is a very alien place because I'm involved with privacy issues. But I live on IRC a lot - with some channels very quiet and topical and others a mix of unrelated chit-chat and technical questions.
So... to cut this short: I think it's good if there a number of places where social can mix with work/technical/... as long as we know where the main point of contact is.
Site builder and Documentation WG member
I think you've convinced me
I think you've convinced me on this. I'm going to be honest here: I hate Facebook and resent having to use it by friends and work obligations. But I do. So I'm going to join the Facebook group because I'm there anyway, even if it wouldn't be enough to get me to use Facebook on its own.
(That said, I have similarly strong concerns about Microsoft, Apple, Google, Adobe, et al, and here I am using all of their stuff RIGHT THIS SECOND. Grumble grumble kids on my lawn, etc.)
But reading this, yeah, you're totally right about people needing to feel comfortable in order to participate, and that's what it's all about. Is there a way we can encourage people to get involved, but ultimately to move the conversation to a single silo? Is that a worthy goal? Is there too much "you're doing it wrong" in that message? I don't know.
The Vancouver Drupal Users' Group had a similar issue with Meetup--Meetup provides a better solution than what's available on groups.Drupal.org, but it's also a privately-owned service, and so on and so forth. Which I think is a totally valid point. We never came up with a good answer, and I'm wondering if maybe improving the tools on G.D.O is the way to go in both cases, or if this is just another technical-solutions-to-social-problems engineer kind of answer.
But regardless, you're definitely right about participation. Thanks for posting this!
Perhaps a bit off-topic...
But the Diaspora project, which is NOT a data coffin, and offers at least some Facebook integration, just announced yesterday that they are committed to opening up as a community project. See their blog for details, and for links to signing up.
Just spreading the word... I for one am excited about the development of this as a Facebook/G+ alternative.
Some comments (via phone as
Some comments (via phone as I'm traveling; sorry for typos):
Short version: I propose that we use FB to supplement and promote more partcipation in this group and elsewhere on drupal groups/drupal.org, not replace it. Some related thoughts...
Techgirlgeek is the main moderator (right?). I've never met her, but offered to help co-moderate just b/c I happen to be on FB a lot. As I understand it...
It's not women only. It's open to all genders/anyone who support the mission. I myself have added some men and some people who are not cis-gendered.
Members can add freely. I think the moderation is just a light screening precaution, but I've been meaning to ask you, Techgirlgeek, why we are moderating new members and what we are looking for besides screening for spammers.
I would love to have a firm strategy on FB to urge anyone w/ Drupal questions, jobs, etc. on FB to post here, and to cross-promote any quiet posts here on FB with a link back here. We would always try to direct traffic back here.
One thing I've learned in my work with nonprofits using similar strategies is that you cannot always control where people have conversations, but it's usually better for them to have those conversations visibly than not at all, and good moderation can help modify and channel behavior and discussion. This could help increase engagement here, even if we don't get every last comment over here. We can do our best, but people will converse where they are, it's better than them being left out of the convo completely if Drupal groups is not their thing yet. It gives us all an opportunity to encouage them to head over here that we would not have had otherwise.
(I love the Diaspora concept but it's about adoption. The reason Drupalchix has outposts on FB and Twitter is b/c these outposts form where people are already engaged.)
Techgirlgeek and anyone else, do you have thoughts on all this?
Thank you hanpersand for
Thank you hanpersand for helping out. You are correct on all of your points above. It's not closed to men, or anyone. If someone supports women in Drupal (or technology) they are welcome.
The only reason I made it moderated was to respect the privacy of anyone who wanted to post something sensitive. Kind of like we do with the IRC channel and not having it logged. I'm happy to open it and allow anyone to join.
Also, you will see that I've even posted on the FB page that if you have a Drupal specific issue, definitely post on the g.d.o page first. The FB page should be more "off topic" chats IMO.
I'll post to the FB page and make sure there's no push back on opening it up, and if there is I'll cross post here. Does that sound okay?
This really was an effort to include more women and/or supporters. If I've alienated anyone I apologize. I think this group is so important and want to do all I can to encourage women to join, not the opposite.
Karyn (techgirlgeek)
Awesome! +100 on an open FB
Awesome!
+100 on an open FB group that anyone can join... this way men can learn from these discussions, too, as they have in the past on this group.
+1,000 for hanpersand's comment "I would love to have a firm strategy on FB to urge anyone w/ Drupal questions, jobs, etc. on FB to post here, and to cross-promote any quiet posts here on FB with a link back here. We would always try to direct traffic back here." This helps address my concerns about the FB group turning into an insular "sub-community" of women that exists outside of Drupal.org. That's the exact opposite of what we want to foster.
I really hope that's how it turns out, since there's obviously a tremendous opportunity to bring women active on FB (and I know a lot of women who basically live on FB ;)) into the Drupal community as active participants and contributors, through a medium they're more naturally comfortable with.
I won't be active in that group to know, so I'm really trusting y'all to keep fighting the good fight. :)
Trying to set the Group to
Trying to set the Group to allow anyone to join, no moderation, doesn't seem to be an option to allow that. But anyone can add people or approve them, that's always been the case. As soon as I find a way to open up membership I'll do that. (Think that's a "feature" in groups, rather than pages which you just like.)
Hi - see my post below
Hi - see my post below subject "I'm in," just waiting on FB approval. Antoinette
Antoinette A
I'm in
Just waiting on approval from the FB moderator. In the 90s I was a pioneer in the print magazine publishing industry. I decided to go back to school and get a masters in information sciences, and now the technology has finally caught up to what I wanted to do with it 10 years ago.
I have put a bit of a web version of my magazine up using Drupal - I was giddy for 3 weeks, and now my learning is slowing. What's up with that? I've hit some walls even with my 5 Drupal books, and there are a few simple things I can't seem to figure out. But I plan to blaze on and grow with intensity as a woman in Drupal.
Antoinette A
Welcome!
Thanks for introducing yourself aarsic! Drupal has more of a jaggedy learning polygon than a smooth "curve" in my experience. http://drupal.stackexchange.com has been an absolutely invaluable resource for me, not just in getting my questions answered, but also in helping me formulate better questions and learn from other people's mistakes. #drupal, #drupal-support, and #drupalchix IRC channels can also be helpful, and of course the forums on this site. I'm impressed that you have 5 Drupal books! Our community is lucky to have energy and enthusiasm like this!
Yes 5 Drupal books! : )
Yes 5 Drupal books! : ) Thanks for the tips - I need all the help I can get.
~Antoinette
Antoinette A
Welcome to the hitting-a-wall club
Hi, "aarsic". Welcome to the hitting-a-wall club. I've been building Drupal sites for 3+ years now -- a Web Developer for 15. I hit walls all the time. Not because I am not smart, not clever, not a great problem solver, or don't research the issues. Because, as advanced as it is, there are things (especially front-end) that Drupal does poorly or not at all.
Hope that you have better luck with those walls than I have. When, I have exhausted all ideas, I post to groups, issue queues, and ask on IRC. I rarely ever get help on an issue. Even on the very useful Drupal.StackExchange.com, I have 2 open issues with absolutely no response. Countless ones on Drupal.org.
I joined the Women In Drupal group hoping to find a mentor in order to push on to the next level. I'm not so hopeful -- at the point of bailing on Drupal altogether.
But, I'd hate for you to feel my same frustrations. I'm not sure what help I can offer. But, I am good at least about brainstorming a problem/solution. Feel free to skype me anytime you get stuck, and we'll see if we can figure it out together.
(As a journalism major, I too started in print, and added web development long before it all came together on the Web.)
Tyme
http://MultimediaByTyme.com
Wall - hitting
Tyme,
It's interesting that you are searching for a mentor, feel like you are hitting walls and not getting help. That's exactly the way I have been feeling lately. I don't want to give up on Drupal though, because I really feel good about what it has, and what I have been able to teach myself.. but I too am wondering how I can get into this.
At DrupalCon there was just talk, over and over, about the NEED for people willing to learn, wanting to do this.. and I went head first into everything I could and I feel like I can't get a mentor, I can't get a drupal centric job (who exactly needs people since no one is really responding) and the issues I do have, and have gone to IRC and other places for no one even really acknowledges!
IRC is weird.
IRC feels like kind of a desert most of the time. Especially the #drupalchix channel. I think women in particular might be reluctant to mentor or to give answers to questions because we tend to lack the confidence to believe that we have the right answer, or at least a helpful one. I love helping people figure out Drupal, especially other women, so anyone who wants help should tweet your drupal.se questions at me ( @bbinkovitz ) or on IRC when I'm there.
I'm always happy to help
I'm always happy to help other people, within my limited knowledge, anyway.
I've found that when you start helping others, you help yourself, too. There's no better way to really make sure you understand it than to try and explain it to others.
Rachel
Helping is a great idea,
Helping is a great idea, maybe especially w/limited knowledge. I will do the same. I'd love to meet a fellow Drupaler (is there a word?) in person because I'm sure there is something really simple I could do to get pictures on my site other than in the "article" format. I keep trying : )
Antoinette A
Thank you! I'm not quite
Thank you! I'm not quite ready to bail, hoping that my former expertise in CMS and taxonomies, metadata, and information architecture will make me a good Drupaler.
But yes, there are some things that with 5 books and even Drupal support I haven't been able to figure out. I think I learned a whole lot really really fast, and now I'm forgetting some basics.
My site is http://vacountrylife.net and I'm just wanting to get images in a gallery on the pages not just in the articles that are in the content area. I seriously need to upload more content, but I have been amazed at the technology behind Drupal and it has mainly been a blast. Thanks for reaching out!
Antoinette
Antoinette A
It's been so nice to see this
It's been so nice to see this conversation be so active. :)
Antoinette, Are you struggling with image galleries? If so, have you tried the Colorbox module? I just had to wrestle it to the ground this week, so that's why I'm asking. My brain is in it. It has ways to suck all of your images into a gallery, and display them (with or without slideshow action). It could use some more documentation. Once I figured out some of the things I'd been stuck on, I did actually contribute some how-to info to the issue queue this time. Baby steps.
(...moved my reply to greta_drupal to a better place in the thread...)
I have a note to download
I have a note to download Colorbox and I just downloaded Insert. Yeah, they are giving me a fit. My photo gallery just shows a list of links, would love to be able to display at least 2 or 3 photos side by side. I think all of Drupal is baby steps, at least for me.
Thanks! I'll try that.
Antoinette
Antoinette A
Hi~Thank you for welcoming and opening up!
Hi~
I saw BoF session up in DrupalCon Munich but didn't attend due to other sessions. :)
I officially join today at this group and facebook group.
I read all the comments and feedbacks. I think it's great to have open channels and utilize every possible place. Do-ocracy is great and it's good to see all opinions exchanged freely here!
I'm quite new to Drupal but totally fell in love withi it and its community as well after this DrupalCon Munich attending as well.
I've been using Korean CMS since 2001 and other CMS like wordpress and joomla and now Drupal 7.
Korea is having DrupalCamp for the first time in October and hope we can also spread out the Drupal spirit and itself. :)
Thank you all for welcoming and opening up and reaching out. :)
Jiyoung
from Beijing(sometimes Seoul)
Okay, here are 2 outstanding
Okay, here are 2 outstanding issues for me, with no response. Both issues keeping me from launching a site. Both good UI use cases.
http://drupal.stackexchange.com/questions/34621/views-menu-tabs-with-a-d...
http://drupal.stackexchange.com/questions/34216/taxonomy-term-descriptio...
Have a theme function solution for node display but not node add/edit form. Or, even a total solution for both.
Both issues keeping me from
Both issues keeping me from launching a site.
Well, technically, the client abandoning the project, and the outstanding invoices in the thousands, is keeping the site from launching. But, I'd like to resolve this and revive the project (at some point) for another use.
greta_drupal, I'm sorry
greta_drupal, I'm sorry you're stuck on those issues. As for the tab one, have you fiddled with Panels at all? I wonder if redirecting to the "Overview" path in Panels and hiding the "View" tab if possible with CSS (I know - that is mad hackish). Just glancing at your question quickly, that's something I could imagine trying. I have only recently started delving deeper into Page Manager, after years of resistance. Sometimes it gets me out of a jam. Other times, it introduces more issues and bugs. Such is life in Drupal sometimes.
Drupalcamp NW 2012
Hi
This is my first posting here and I'm very pleased to belong to this group.
I live near Manchester, UK, where there is a thriving tech community. I know it's a long shot, but would any of you be interested in attending Drupalcamp NW 2012? This takes place at Salford Quays, Manchester November 24-25. It was only officially announced last week and at the time of writing there is no website. The twitter hashtag is #DCNW12.
Jane