I'll put back the post that started this thread. I've been hit and supported, but my whole point was encouraging discussion about more women in Drupal and there being opportunities for them with no judgments outside of tech skills. Susan
I didn't ask to be born a woman; I didn't purposely wait until I was old to get into Drupal; and I certainly have no desire just to be attractive to be noticed. One day women will be looked at for their expertise and ability rather than being different.
This is the second time in 2 years that I was able to work at doing Drupal full time rather than just after doing my day job. I approached two local Los Angeles shops and asked for a job -- I was more than willing to start at the bottom and work my way up. I've been going to Drupal meetings for 3 years now and participating as best as I can with a different full time job, so I'm known. The first guy didn't even talk Drupal with me, coldly just gave me his card, took it back, and said to contact his assistant. The Jr Developer job was posted the next day here, and I applied. Nothing. Not even a thanks for applying. At the next meeting he totally ignored me. The second shop I didn't get an answer from at all. I bumped into the principal from the shop, and he didn't even know I had applied. Still nothing.
This has happened to me before. In 1975 I had a newly minted international business B.A. from Ohio State. I went to a job fair in NYC and talked for a half an hour with a recruiter from Merrill Lynch about where multilateral business was going -- in 1975! Then he said let me see your resume. He looked at it and immediately said management wouldn't accept me because I have secretarial experience. Hell, my secretarial experience put me through college -- what was I supposed to do, construction? Merrill Lynch was subsequently sued in a class action suit for discrimination toward women in hiring.
I've taken an admin job again. I cannot be more sad. I'll still do Drupal outside of my day job, again.
Comments
My "horror story" cup runneth over.
Oh, boy. Could I tell you some stories. My "horror story" cup runneth over. Contact me directly if you want to commiserate about bad luck and people who suck.
Today, I interviewed for a job to literally sort trash (recyclables). Not just any job -- a part-time (15 - 30 hours per week), temporary job. I am so disgusted with the tech arena that this job sounds inviting...albeit, pretty humiliating for someone with 2 college degrees and more than 20 years of experience in multimedia.
And for those of you who will reply, or be tempted to reply, with "there's no such thing as bad luck" and that law of attraction Oprah-Winfrey-kind of bs 'you reap what you sow', let me just preemptively respond: "f***k you!".
Secretarial jobs pay more than Web Designer/Developer jobs
2 other jobs:
Construction secretary job, with medium firm. Full-time. $50,000 plus benefits.
Web Developer (with Joomla experience), with a large university (medical school). Temporary, 4-week contract position. $16 - $20 per hour, no benefits.
What is wrong with this picture?
Nothing. It's what the market
Nothing. It's what the market will bear. If someone (with Joomla experience) is willing to do that work for $16-$20/hour, good on them. Hopefully they found the service provided at value and cost intersection that is satisfactory to them. More likely than not, this probably won't be the case.
If they can't find anyone, they have one of two choices:
OR
It just so happens that our society values internet engineers a little more than secretaries, and their wages in general are a bit higher to reflect this. But nothing in economics says that this ALWAYS has to be the case. This is simply market forces at play. As long as they are providing a legal wage, and it appears they are, there is nothing "wrong with this picture".
Well, we shall disagree. It
Well, we shall disagree. It is every kind of wrong. Every kind of wrong as the fact that a person who dances naked makes like 5 times more than the person who teaches your children.
It isn't about elitism, it is about the fact that certain jobs REQUIRE certain credentials in education, experience, and have a degree of difficulty*. And the market should always reflect the value of those additional requirements.
No, sorry but creating
No, sorry but creating websites, in Joomla, Drupal or whatever, does not require any credentials in education at all.
The Job Requirements do.
The Job Requirements do.
Unfortunately, you're taking
Unfortunately, you're taking economics out of the equation. If Joomla is a dying platform (I'm not say that it is -- just hypothetical), and no one is building applications in Joomla anymore, how do my credentials, experience, etc still justify a higher wage? Less demand pressures lower wages. This is simple economics.
So we must be smart, in always evaluating our skills, opportunities, and market conditions to promote a career or business that is in demand. Currently, there is high demand for Drupal skills. However, my general observation is that many developers detest coding in Drupal because of it's aging API, and general messiness and high barrier to entry in creating high-quality, maintainable code. This too is not good, as this deflationary scenario will mean companies will give up, and choose other platforms that have more developers, and be locked in them instead. I'm hoping some of the influences of Symfony will reverse this.
Let's face it, Drupal has stiff competition. At some point in the future, Drupal will succumb to market forces if we as a community do not continually improve to fit market conditions. A newer, better architected CMS will arrive, and it will gain traction faster than Drupal. If Drupal does not keep up, we will all be out of a job -- at least a Drupal one.
If Joomla is a dying platform
If Joomla is a dying platform (I'm not say that it is -- just hypothetical), and no one is building applications in Joomla anymore, how do my credentials, experience, etc still justify a higher wage? Less demand pressures lower wages.
I see it as the reverse. Joomla as more a niche, for that reason. If fewer people are using/developing with Joomla -- meaning that they have moved on to other platforms, then those who do know it and are available should be in high demand.
In much the same way as I suspect that DotNetNuke or Sharepoint builders/devs would earn more because they are a minority group.
[It this specific case, this large org is migrating from Dreamweaver to Joomla. So, they selected Joomla as their first CMS.]
There is a talented Drupal
There is a talented Drupal module developer who has been very helpful to me. (Really, the only one.) Even though he generously offers his time for free, I always pay him. I ask him how much time he spent, and his rate. He tells me his hourly rate, and I tell him that is too low and pay him a fair market rate (and no less than what I would bill for that time).
If I paid anyone less than "market value", I would compensate by offering my time in return for the difference.
Just an observation
Joyseeker,
Judging from you comments I'm wondering you were discriminated against due to ageism instead of sexism, or perhaps a bit of both.
Let's face it, the tech industry is pretty notorious for biases against certain groups including women, people of a certain age, and minorities. In some ways it has improved, but it has a heck of a ways to go in my estimation.
female and forty(>=), you're dead in the job market
Seems that if you are female and forty(>=), you're dead in the job market. [Have heard that from other job seekers, too.] God forbid you also are not caucasian, I suppose.
In my experience, this
In my experience, despite its problems this community is an open and supportive one. I've been and remain open to having you on board in any role you'd like at events like Drupal Design Camp LA and our meetups, like when you presented at last month's Frontend Drupal meetup on Adobe Edge.
That meetup, by the way, had a record number of presentations: 2 by men and 2 by women. You helped make that happen!
As one of the principals of the Drupal firms mentioned in your post, I'd like to point out that I did know that you applied. I said this when I walked up to you. When I learned that you hadn't heard back from us, I said that I'd look into it. Why do I remember it this way and you remember it another? It makes me wonder. Perhaps you need a place to vent, in which case I understand and will stand back to let you do it.
By the way, when we reviewed your application we didn't follow up with you because you hadn't provided any of the information we requested in our job announcement. Second, several of us thought the discussion you started last year about women's T-shirts and how women in our community are "girlfriends" and "helpers" was pretty insulting.
As you can see, these reasons have nothing to do with age or gender.
Your Post
This may not be relevant to the discussion, but as an employer, I would hope that if you had a relationship with an applicant and their application was unacceptable you would take the time to drop the person a line or mention it the next time you ran into them. As the applicant, I would take that type of info as valuable feedback. As an employer, I would consider it a minimum courtesy to a member of my user group community.
Also, I'm not sure that I would have provided this feedback on an open forum where the principles are identifiable. Prior to your post, it was pretty anonymous.
My thoughts exactly, on both
My thoughts exactly, on both points. (And, I think that reply just further made her case about her experience in the Drupal/tech community.)
I'm leaving and here's why
No, I don't want to whine and compare horror stories. I especially do not want someone saying fK you to ME because I might have an opinion, which I will keep to myself because I don't feel like being fked. This is the most unprofessional and childish thread I have ever read, and sadly been a part of in my entire 30 year career.
I will find another forum than this group on drupal.org. Thanks for the memories.
Antoinette A
Toys, pram, anyone?
Toys, pram, anyone?
Yeah, I really must unfollow
Yeah, I really must unfollow Ricky Gervais' Twitter feed.
A short while back, a veteran
A short while back, a veteran Drupal developer started a thread about being offended because someone called her pretty. Posted to both vent and spark discussion. I don't recall anyone suggesting that she was "whining" or "childish". But, you could try your same reply there, and see how it goes over in that thread.
[My apologies if my caustic wit phraseology personally offended anyone. Moderator, feel free to redact it.]
Hi joyseeker et all, I'm in
Hi joyseeker et all,
I'm in the UK so have no idea what the employment situ is like in the US but it's a very competitive market over here particularly in the IT/web-dev world.
I have two maths degrees, am female and have worked in applied math research for a proportion of my working life; I have also worked in software dev for some of my life.
I don't have a job right now, have a Churchilian black dog of my own and don't have much Drupal experience yet. After a year I am still trying to get a site up the way I like it. I do have previous HTML/CSS experience and have constructed web sites in the past.
I suspect I'm around the same age as you.
My experiences include being the token woman, being one of three, one of whom was a secretary, the other also in research, having a mischeviously machiavelian boss in one research area paired with an equally mischevious academic supervisor - I swear - no I know - they used to gang up on me - and a whole bunch of discrimination through working in electrical engineering departments.
In 1975 things weren't as good as they are today for women. Regretfully in the UK, the right of women to work has become the need for both partners to work simply to keep the roof over their heads.
There's always been social criticism of women - when's the last time you heard anyone criticise working mothers for neglecting their children? That used to be a very common one in the 1970s. Women are still paid less than men - by about 18% - pay more for and get less in their pensions; many other unfair things go on. Each has to be challenged.
Fast forward to today, many conference organisers, particularly in the open source community, are adopting an anti-harassment policy e.g. http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Conference_anti-harassment/Policy. Having been assaulted at an engineering conference in the 80s, I was sorry to read of similar experiences in the 21st century but pleased the policy finally resulted from vociferous activity.
While the need for such a policy is a sad indictment of human behaviour, I'm glad now that it exists.
Life isn't fair - that is the base line from which we have to work. There are no guarantees in life. There is no guarantee that any of us will outlive our parents or our chilldren will outlive us. There's no guarantee of a good job at the end of a degree course - I believe more so now than ever before. There's no guarantee, even if we can do something well and we like it, that we will actually get work from it or a living wage.
I imagine your experience with Merill Lynch felt like a slap in the face but did you answer that it helped you pay your way through college? Did you think to sell your secretarial experience as a bonus? It's that kind of real time thinking on your feet stuff (which frequently evades me) that might impresses employers.
When I am applying for admin jobs, I play down my degrees and previous research and software development experience because it scares people. I also realise I don't have qualifications they can understand so I am looking at doing the kind of course that admin jobs would expect or want to see on a CV, just so these people can relate to my skill level. It guts me to consider this path but family commitments mean I need a job local to home and part-time. Not so many of those in the IT industry.
One problem for me today, through my experiences in my world of work, is being part of the team. All those niggling self-doubts when someone else gets something I was aiming for - be it a particular project, some work, a job, recognition, a pay rise, a promotion - whatever - because they are : male/younger than me/prettier than me/better than me ... . or because someone disagrees with me.. (?) ... well, that's a bit of a joke - people are entitled to disagree with other people aren't they ? so I have to learn to deal with it - no matter what depth of feeling I have about the topic of disagreement.
Thanks to my black dog, I now have the experience and training to recognise unhelpful thoughts. Those thoughts aren't going to help me progress - they are not constructive. However empirically true they may appear to be. Employers have always preferred younger cheaper more moldable staff and I took advantage of that when I was younger. It doesn't just happen in the computing world, teachers are often young because they can be paid less.
I can say I have played little cognitive behaviour experiments in daily life, actively got my desctructive thinking out of my head and gave myself the headspace to discover effective short, medium or long-term solutions.
One tip I have garnered from all the advice on job hunting out there, my covering letter counts. I do adjust my CV to the job I'm applying for, less of that more of this, but my covering letter/email counts too. I try to follow what is being asked for in the job, say why I think I can meet it and highlight where my CV fits the bill.
Hope you get what you're looking for; just don't give up because then you won't ever get there.
Sorry about the double post
Sorry about the double post ... I have no idea what happened there but the server was trying to tell me not to get involved
Here's a link on covering letters - guess the same applies to emails these days -
http://www.kent.ac.uk/careers/cv/coveringletters.htm
I just saw this and find it a
I just saw this and find it a bit confusing ... seems the original post has been edited (or another removed)?
--
mike stewart { twitter: @MediaDoneRight | IRC nick: mike stewart }
Removed
She wanted to cover her trax. Did she feel shame I wonder?
Being judged on anything but my Drupal knowledge
What's so amazing to me about the responses like this is that my point was missed. When I applied for a Drupal job, I was being judged by anything but my Drupal knowledge. Just take Christefano's response -- I wasn't being considered for the job because of comment I made a year ago -- what ever does that have to do with Drupal? I stand by what I originally said about being judged. Antek, did you ever come up to me in a Drupal meetup or camp and talk Drupal? Did you ever see me at any of the meetups or camps I've gone to in the past 3 years?
I deleted the post because I said what I wanted to say; people got it in an email and the comment didn't need to stay for perpetuity on the site. I wanted to raise the consciousness of this group -- include women!! Encourage women organizers; encourage women presenters; include women in Drupal discussions; talk about Drupal to the women who come to the meetups. (Christefano, thanks for including me as a presenter. I loved doing it. And I brought a different perspective to theming -- work at making the theme look good and different using fonts resources.) Drupal community, men and women, don't judge anyone for anything but Drupal knowledge. Isn't the reason why people come to the Drupal meetups to talk and learn Drupal?
And thanks, Mike, for the good wishes about the job.
Susan
I deleted the post because I
I deleted the post because I said what I wanted to say; people got it in an email and the comment didn't need to stay for perpetuity on the site.
Convenient for you. However, all of our comments remain. As one who boldly defended your frustration & venting, my posts are particularly asinine out of context (even more so than some already considered them).
Honestly, I feel a bit sandbagged by the complete redaction of your original post. Would have been more appropriate for you to ask the moderator to remove the entire thread.
No shame thanks
Certainly not ... why would I ?
My connection to the server dropped while in the process of posting my reply - so I didn't see the first post had gone through.
A simple and fairly straightforward occurrence of a repeated post.
I can't see any shame in that, Antek. Perhaps you'd care to explain?
Yes, Mike I dd edit the second occurence of the post - who needs to read it twice? Sorry if that confused you.
I have just checked the OP and the originator has edited her post.
Obviously she wants to lay this to rest, I can respect that.
But I will congratulate her on at least having a job, working for a living and supporting herself.
try to assume the best
@lesleyb -- I didn't think twice about the double post/edit by @lesleyb ... it happens. @antek ... words are often lacking -- combined with the fact most of us aren't trained writers -- its difficult to get across complex ideas. try to assume the best.
my post was in regards to the thread in general -- I'm just confused by it and moreso a couple of references. I think its just a couple weird tangents now that've actually read more of the post.
seems to be a good post about venting.
@joyseeker, congrats on your new job! I totally agree that life isn't fair.
--
mike stewart { twitter: @MediaDoneRight | IRC nick: mike stewart }
shame
JS at deleting her post
To be Clear
Joyseeker, the reason you weren't considered for the job is because you did not provide the information we asked so that we could assess your Drupal skills fairly with the other applicants. Beyond that, all we have to go on is our community experience with you.
The post you made last year was offensive to me, the co-owner of the company that you were applying to because you not only insulted all of the women in the community, as well as sideswiping the very cool men, you directly insulted a brilliant woman who was our Director of Training and one of the managers of LA Drupal at the time.
It was breathtaking self-sabotage if you want to apply to my company. I need to be confident that the people in my company will support and encourage each other, not tear each other down and insult them.
When I look to hire people, I understand that these people are going to come in direct contact with our clients and represent us as a company. Right now, given the venom you spouted last year and in the post above which you have wisely removed, you seem like you would be an unpredictable hire even if you were a crack drupal developer.
If I were to hire you, I would need to ensure that you would never come in contact with a client until I had seen consistent positive communication strategies from you for something like a year. It would be worth creating this extra infrastructure if you were a super-badass senior developer, but you seem to be more junior in your Drupal experience.
But I don't know because you never finished the application.
Of the eight people we hired this month, five were women.
Founder
http://www.larks.la
Robot Coordinator
http://droplabs.net
Organizer, Dragonslayer
http://drupal.la &n
winners find the way, losers make up excuses!
Hi!
I've worked in information talent acquisiton for the past 10 years for the most cutting edge companies. One thing that I've learned in acquiring the world's best developers is that they love finding solutions to issues........making life more efficient (leveraging technology to enhance the bottom line).
The fact that you are complaining about life is not fair leads me to believe you have a harder time.thinking out of the box (architecting solutions not just in life, but in software). Think about who you are competing with.........cheaper labor overseas.
One piece of advice: use adversity as a springboard for growth. Complaining adds no value. Also, I've reviewed your portfolio. What message are you sending potential employers?
Courtesy?
You know, Lee (nodiac), that I'm an email or phone call away if you needed (wanted ?) more information/insight to my Drupal knowledge. It's called courtesy and acknowledgment of being part of a community. And this is nowhere for you, Christefano and dianehle to post personal attacks -- contact me directly. Or do you have something that you need to rationalize to the community to cover your tracks?? Also, my "portfolio" links have changed since I'm upgrading my sites to D7 -- if you and dianehle have only just looked at them.
I thought I was applying to the company of someone who knows me -- I had no idea you were part of it because you've not been to a main meetup in a long time. Congrats with hiring women -- hope this thread encouraged that!
Susan
This thread. non sequitur. Jewish princess. Women being hired?
I was actually pleased to get a letter from a German recruiter recently which reminded me of the different culture over there. It's the norm. Can you imagine getting a letter like this here in the States? I am told that it was natural to get such letters maybe 30 years ago.
" Dear Mr Maciejowski,
thank you for sending us your application documents and your interest in our company.
To our job posting we received a great number of qualified applications, including yours. Unfortunately, due to the specialty of the vacant position we had to decide for an applicant whose skills and knowledge met our demands better than yours. We regret not being able to give you more positive news and hope for your understanding.
We thank you again for your confidence and wish you all the best for your future career.
Best regards,"
This is an art form. There are key phrases, hidden meanings. A real art form. Not brash and simple.
That is a very thoughtful,
That is a very thoughtful, well crafted rejection letter. The tone is spot on -- expresses sympathy and confidence building at same time.
:)
@mike stewart : glad it wasn't me that confused you. :)
@greta_drupal
I agree everything seemed very strange after @joyseeker deleted the original post. Didn't make me feel that great about this thread either.
@Antek
It's good to hear at least one country is still retaining some humanity and replying to people who show an interest in working for them.
That used to be the norm in the UK, until the 80's when mass unemployment meant the sheer number of applicants made that corporate behaviour highly cost ineffective. It rarely occurs now.
---
Generally speaking, here in the UK, it is considered highly important to follow the whole application process through for any job; meeting these initial requirements of the company that might be your future employer at least shows willing and capable. If people fail to do that then they simply don't get considered for the vacancy. Out on the first count, basically, and if the company has say 50 or 60 people applying for one post then they have to whittle away that stack pretty quickly.
I don't expect feedback from the jobs I apply for unless I ask for it but I prefer to ask for that explicitly by telephone or face to face, sometimes in an email, but not indirectly in a public forum. f I did do that then I would have to expect the company to defend itself.
These letters died in the USA in the early 1990s
Hi Tony,
Around 1991 or 1992 the same thing happened in the USA as in the UK, nice responses to resumes and cover letters disappeared. Head hunters were at lease partially responsible for the replies disappearing. I got a postcard back from one company that I didn't send anything to, turns out a head hunter had sent in my resume to a company I wasn't even interested in working for. Another possible reason that the nice responses disappeared is because automated application systems on the internet were installed, and we are lucky when those even acknowledge the initial contact.
Paul
Paul Chernick
CEO
Chernick Consulting
(310) 569-2517
automated apps
Don't get me started on auto application procedures. Did anyone see the pbs newshour segment about them? http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/business/july-dec12/makingsense_09-25.html
Somewhere in the segment it talks about how a test was done where several highly professional and experienced programmers (WARNING shameless plug ---->like me ) were all turned down by the computer review.
Tony
Interesting PBS story about
Interesting PBS story about the automated job process, and so true. But, what they failed to note was that most companies won't even take a non-digital application. If you just show up to chat about the position, they simply point you to their in-office/store kiosk. So, you must at least do that online submission step first. Of course, geography makes the personal followup tricky when applying for out-of-town (telecommute) positions.
Worse, so many of these online applications have required fields for social security number and/or driver's license #. That is just insane -- a privacy and identity security risk. No one should be asked, let alone required, to provide that at this level -- only after job offer. They also almost always require graduation date(s), which makes it easy for them to discriminate against candidates for age.
As noted above, what kind of message are you sending
Joyseeker,
I have anger management issues and have a tendency to question self appointed authority. This sometimes colors how people view me, including my clients, former partners, previous bosses and possible future bosses. I am working on improving my world viewpoint because anger just gets in the way of getting things done quickly and in a positive manner.
This is not a personal attack, it is an observation.
Several people have provided you with good feedback and you call that feedback personal attacks.
Potential companies that will hire you can find this entire stream of messages on the internet, what kind of image does it paint?
How does one potential boss and one HR person telling you that you need to improve your resume and portfolio become personal attacks?
Perhaps your expectations of others need some review.
Paul Chernick
CEO
Chernick Consulting
(310) 569-2517
My take from that original post
While I cannot attest to joyseeker's actual series of events, I believed that the original post sparked a good discussion -- why I engaged.
My take from that original post, and source of my own frustrations, is the disappointed of not getting a wee bit of extra coutesty/consideration (even simple acknowledgment) from a community in which you have been an active participant. I have definitely felt this in the Drupal community, with respect to help on issues, and also in the job market. (I have just started really looking for a staff position.)
Other Example: A while back, on a community board, I saw a job post for a web developer job. The company was a vegan product marketing firm. Not only do I have more than 15 years of experience as a web developer (plus additional years in multimedia), but I am longtime vegan. An estimated 2% of population is vegan. How many of those do you figure have been multimedia producers for 20 years? You'd think that I would be a shoe-in for shortlist, huh. Never even received an acknowledgement from the company about my resume submission. ...That is just one of many similar stories.
Same kind of thing happens to me a lot, when offering pro bono work to charities -- including from those who have solicited for such. To not respond to someone offering their professional services for free is egregious, IMO.
Culture
I think it is not just a state of affairs in the job market but a general reflection of Americans basic alienation from one another. Definitely a cultural value. Leave me in peace on my pony. I won't return your phonecalls, or emails or invites or gifts or niceties or flattery or job apps if I don't feel excited about it. I don't care if you are waiting for an answer. And I certainly don't want to socially talk openly and in depth. I'd rather huff away in a tizzy muttering about how nasty and negative you are to me than actually talk to me for an hour.
All those cafes filled with laptops.
Being female isn't as much a problem
greta_drupal,
Being female isn't as much a problem as being 40+. Take a look at labor statistics and you'll see that men (especially ones 40 and older) are losing out inn this economy.
Don't believe me then maybe you'll believe this:
http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/LNS11300001
Or just google: men labor force participation
So, someone was saying they had to take a secretary job because they haven't been able to find work in the field of their choosing. I'd say count your blessings it could be much worse.