Posted by conorc on September 22, 2009 at 9:22am
This hasn't been specced out yet in any detail I'd imagine. But did anyone else who read this article by Paul Cullen about proposals from the Global Irish Economic Forum at Farmleigh in the Phoenix Park, think Drupal might be part of one possible solution?
a “Gateway Ireland” online portal to link Ireland and the diaspora
Minister for Foreign Affairs Micheál Martin.
Ireland needed a long-term plan to connect with its 70 million-strong diaspora
Businessman Denis O’Brien
technically sophisticated, stylish, interactive, cutting-edge
Riverdance creator John McColgan
Read the full article from the Irish Times Plan to set up dynamic link with diaspora.
Comments
Diaspora
Hi Conorc,
Have a look at Bernadette and Mick over at http://www.diaspora.ie/aboutus.php. With the E-voting & E-gov fiascos (dont mention NAMA) I fear for any E-diaspora project. Also have a look at www.gov.ie. I think that runs out on Dept of Finance using Django on Python. This has potential but it needs HELP (a lot).
But being positive what can Drupal offer? I use & like it. Its FREE. It runs on LOW COST HOSTING. It has its own INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY or "Drupal Dispora". I'm thinking of the Open Source World where people all over the planet communicate to improve software. Do we need to mimic this model to improve Ireland? Is Drupal good enough for the job or in govt speak is it "fit for purpose" - discus - Bren
down to purpose
Hi Bren,
diaspora.ie/starship looks interesting. But I suppose I imagined (maybe without much imagination) something more like linkedin.com or even something as collaborative as drupal.org itself.
I've heard anecdotes of opensource not being considered because it's "too free". But those sort of arguments can be countered with examples like Obama's site using drupal - recovery.gov.
Your question on being "fit for purpose" can't really be answered till we know more of the "purpose" and get an idea of the strategy and scope of the project. But Drupal's record for "community plumbing" might make it a contender.
Out of curiosity, can anyone recommend any large, international, collaborative, business communities made with Drupal that might compare well to what the Minister alluded to?
ConorC
DrupalCon Dublin 2016
http://dublin2016.drupal.org
http://www.drupal.ie/map
Open source being "too free"
Hi ConorC,
Have you just tripped over the big flaw. Could it be that that those tasked to implement a national solution are just NOT able and need to hide behind commercial vendors. When the vendors find out out how bad the weakness is do they then stick the fees boot in. I love the comment "designing in the nature of fees".
Any project would need to be super dynamic. It would have to react ergo you will need people to do CSS build, test, kill, fly features/modules. You will need reverse (not stop) when it goes wrong and have the ability to change. So can you do all this with jsp, asp, php, ruby, python, perl etc?
At this point Ill introduce BLING - make it look good to make me look good. I believe those who decide are blinded by BLING (People love shiney - as per a good pythonista). So we will need a solution that is capable of dynamic BLING and dynamic FUNCTION.
I am going to go for PHP as it can do BLING, FUNCTION and has a bonus of being easy to get product. If you could stress the features of PHP you will have gone along way in building your solution. To my mind
Drupal does BLING and FUNCTION out of the box with the unrestricted ability to grow from day 1 via its module capability. A big question is can Drupal on a good LAMP stack ramp to the challenge.
Also would you like to suggest what functions a "diaspora" site might have. Are we looking at a twist on Amazon or Ebay?
Regards Bren
..
hi Conor,
I caught David McWilliams lyrically waxing about the diaspora project on the late late. it sounds very interesting and as someone who used to be part of the diaspora he is talking about, he is spot on about the untapped power of that community.
I think Drupal Acquia would be a very good choice for a diaspora.ie site, not just for the collaborative business plans and proposals that are in the works (organic groups), but, pinging existing online communities where the diaspora congregate..such as irishabroad.com or the many irish groups on yahoo/facebook/etc.
I don't think it's necessary to build a new linkedin.com for Irish people....I think using Drupal Acquia to build a simple Diaspora hub site (rather than a portal) that can grow would be a good move. In other words, it would plug into sites like plaxo.com or linkedin.com, facebook, bebo, google etc.
I disagree with the OP who mentioned BLING. The most successful websites usually have no bling - the focus is on functionality, rather than bling. In the same breath, I get the impression from the late late show discussion that the project is all about substance over style. In other words, a diaspora.ie site, imho, shouldn't include bling.
As for funding it...it's worth noting that the Irish Times and RTE, collectively, have the largest diaspora audience of all Irish websites. Both would cut off their right arm to have something that would strengthen that audience.
As for building it...I think it's plausible that some Drupallers in Ireland could pull together the necessary architecture and modules for a kick-ass site, but, I would sway towards Acquia, rather than Drupal. If you're involved in this project, I would recommend you drop an email to Robert Douglass at Acquia who could help steer it along.
dub
Hub or Portal
Hi Dub,
there's no doubt in my mind that McWilliams has a point regarding the leveraging of the "diaspora".
A diaspora "Hub" might be sufficient if it could deeply integrate other Web2.0 sites. But maybe I just haven't personally seen examples of that working. I think greater collaboration might be enabled with a more ambitious "Portal" that fosters and facilitates the community. One that would be well served by connecting up with other such sites.
Media sites certainly have already built up audiences, but I don't know if they have the community building expertise on their own to convert those into fruitful participants. RTE mightn't have the mandate at the moment to invest in developing for off-shore populations.
Having just returned from the Belfast Drupal Camp i think that there could definitely be the technical expertise on this island to build it. Though it might be as well to start as the project means to go on and maybe widen the development out towards the diaspora and wider world. It would be interesting to hear more experiences of developing strategies/directions that have already seeded the building of similar communities in Drupal within Ireland and internationally.
BTW I'm in no way involved at all. Just read about the Farmleigh Forum and wondered if Drupal could be a fit. And by asking, would references return to make an argument for it to be considered when it came to it's implementation.
PS: Bren - It's certainly a big responsibility for those tasked to find someone to implement this idea. But I'd be more positive on balance once a sound strategy is in place for what is to be achieved by such a development. Which I would consider to be wider than B2C retail like Amazon. Maybe it'll be a particular blend of a a number of the sites mentioned already and something like a network of distributed groups along the lines of http://civicactions.com/
PPS: I'm usually adverse to define the vision of a new site by referencing a medley of social networking sites, my apologies :-)
ConorC
DrupalCon Dublin 2016
http://dublin2016.drupal.org
http://www.drupal.ie/map
..
hi Conor,
Both RTE and IRISH TIMES website audiences are in the 90% bracket internationally..i.e. visitors from outside Ireland. At the moment I think you're right that RTE are still mandated by the tv license to be locally focussed, but, with the likelihood that the TV license will be phased out soon..probably to be replaced with some sort of "content tax" or license..I think the value of that diaspora audience is beyond a no-brainer. Consider how much money tourism ireland would pump into a portal that gets to the heart of the professional diaspora community....or even Barry's tea, for that matter.
It's an interesting hypothetical, by the way. One thought that sprung to mind, beyond connectivity and plugging into existing web 2.0 sites, was the organic groups features that would allow people to sign up to specific projects or initiatives using their existing facebook/other logins to sign up.
That's a very simplistic example of how Drupal would be a cut ahead of the rest, when it comes to existing functionality that needs tweaking, as opposed to significant from-scratch development, but, you get the idea.
As for putting in a pitch to the Farmleigh forum, I wouldn't hesitate to suggest or recommend Acquia Drupal as the proposed foundation stones, built and maintained by an Irish team, with support from Acquia Europe.
dub
Hub portal or board
Hi Folks,
back to being positive ;-). Good points raised. I had a look at Acquia - I liked the HELPING idea - very positive. How do you help the diaspora do diaspora things?
So I went up to http://www.carrollsirishgifts.com/section/1 to people (diaspora/tourist) watch. I got a sense of people looking to get a small piece of Ireland. Re media comments the diaspora "GET" a bit of news from home.
Then I had a look at http://www.citizensinformation.ie The Citizens Information Board is the national agency responsible for supporting the provision of information, advice and advocacy to the public on the broad range of social and civil services. Its independent of govt in its function. I think it runs on PLONE on a LAMP stack. Could this model be designed in a Drupal way to help the diaspora. Should we have a "Diaspora Board"
Would a diaspora person like to "self service" or have a contact with a real person on the island. Would a board helper person provide diaspora centric help. How could we bolt on "value added" for Ireland to such a model.
Would the idea of "register as a diaspora" & get an official Board cert be a good one (funding model?). Once registered people could opt in/out of various schemes & services. It would be up to the board to "work/lever" these online diaspora in various ways. What do you think?
Bren
..
I was thinking about that....probably one of the simplest that hits all the buttons is the March 17th celebrations every year.
Consider a drupal driven diaspora portal with organic groups functionality enabled....with a specific group where march 17th committee members and volunteers from across the globe can sign up to and connect with using their existing facebook/bebo login.
The Farmleigh guys could come up with ideas that would steer the organising committee's away from religious (and stereotypical) iconography to more contemporary and secular iconography, for example, to help shift the Irish "brand" away from the stereotypes. As an aside, that's already happening in Ireland, but, a lot of the international celebrations are still a tad 'begorrah', if you know what I mean. Or they could encourage committees to organise events that don't just involve drinking copious amounts of green beer and parting like it's 1989 (not that there's anything wrong with that now and again)...such as trade shows promoting irish products and services.
That's a very simple example of how a Drupal driven portal could help the diaspora do diaspora things in a way that benefits the Irish back home.
In the same breath, there's no reason they couldn't use something like a facebook group to achieve the same result, but, I think using Drupal to cast a net out to ALL the facebook type sites where the disapora are likely to congregate, would be more organic and efficient. It also allows for the core Drupal site to sell it's own advertising and sponsorship slots which is something that would be tricky to do with a facebook (or similar) group.
I think it would require a significant hardware setup in Ireland to scale up and handle what the farmeligh guys are thinking about, but, I think Acquia Drupal would be a good choice.
dub
St Patrick's day is a trigger
St Patrick's day is a trigger event. We could have 365 days from sports(all Irelands/internationals) to music to what ever - all being IRELAND centric. Bit like amazon - you liked this book on fish how about trying one on meat? The trick is to lever off the trigger.
Begorragh - I hear you. Youtube any small town USA Paddys day parade - you will cringe. Bit like BIFFO singing on the trailer in Clara ;-). We should get a handle on "Diaspora things". We should also watch the young Vs middle Vs old age traps.
Hardware is cheap these days. I wonder is there a chance of a state ISP/cloud, it was in the ether last year http://www.taoiseach.ie/eng/Building_Ireland's_Smart_Economy/Building_Ireland's_Smart_Economy_.pdf.
Have a peek at www.about.com They say We'll help you: I think this HELP angle is a great HOOK. Acquia sell help ($8000 pa enterprise). What help could the diaspora consume? BTW nice site over at acquia.com.
Bren
i wouldnt discount those
i wouldnt discount those smalltown parades outside of NYC. they are huge opportunities to sell Ireland effectively - the diaspora site idea could be a way for these towns to promote their parades - encouraging tourism to those places , and in return we could encourage tourism to back home.
the biggest non NYC one is in savannagh georgia (i have no idea why..) - and as i heard over the weekend on the radio, Dublin is actually closer to Georgia flight wise than California...
diaspora can help out
i am one of the aforementioned "diaspora" living in the UK.
if we get this right this could be a great way to get irish developers abroad to contribute.
diaspora can help out
Hi Justin,
Are you thinking about empowering the diaspora to participate and influence the product. Good idea I think. In community speak bottom up build is best rather than top down and possession of the process is very important. But is does have risks of hijack. Drupal seems to have a "fit for purpose" community structure.
Bren
exactly
yes indeed - thats exactly what i'm on about.
some sort of crowd sourcing mechanism where the good ideas float to the top.
because of work commitments (and indeed timezone differences) the diaspora might not be able to work on this full time - but we can certainly chip in with ideas, discussion, or simple reddit/digg style voting.
Interesting thread
I'm not Irish myself, I'm a friend of Justin's ^^ who suggested I jump in, since we've done quite a few community sites now.
In my experience, dub is dead right. Simple, functional sites with modest beginnings but strong marketing tend to be most effective. Our biggest site, www.infieldparking.com, started out as user profiles and a forum and went WILD. It was amazing. 50,000 users in the first month, or something crazy like that. We've built much more complex sites than that, but usually take up is much slower. People can't be bothered to join another site where they have to manage another profile, etc. A straightforward profile/board/individual blogs-style implementation, with as much integration with other sites people already use as possible (easy ones are Facebook, Flickr and Twitter right now) would really take off with some smart marketing.
And it wouldn't cost much to build.
In terms of flavour of Drupal, I would definitely favour Pressflow over Acquia Drupal. We've been doing a lot of work with the Economist, who have hired Four Kitchens to do a lot of their architecture based on Pressflow. Those guys will tell you, Pressflow has drastically reduced their running costs. It's lightning quick already, swaps out standard Drupal core without issue and allows you to run advanced accelerator and caching mechanisms out of the box (think memcached and Varnish) so you can get really surprising performance and high usage for low hosting costs. AFAIK, Acquia Drupal won't do that.
And since you'd likely get a big audience quick, you don't want to run straight in to ugly scaling and hosting cost issues inside the first few months of operation!
Just some thoughts...
Greg
--
http://www.cmspros.co.uk
Another interesting site
I'm impressed with the new http://tcktcktck.org/people/time-is-now/explore-climate-orb. Have a look at the review on www.drupal.org. Could this fit the diaspora model. www.Local.ie was an eircom attempt to connect Ireland years ago. I think it bombed out in the first dotcom bust at a cost of circa €8m (huge money then).
I think a Drupal Diaspora online donate tool service would be a great incentive to have on island groups buy in to a global website. How about empowering a small local GGA team in say Leitrim to tap the Leitrim diaspora for funds to sponsor kit. They cant set this service up online but we could fire out nodes in factory fashion to capture those diaspora impulse donations of say sub €5. Being clever Leitrim folk why not evolve in to offering team kit for sale.
Considering past failures and our actual nation size would a "Diaspora Champion" (like an E-envoy, E-minister) be better than a board. How about you put McWilliams in place with a small budget & connected to Govt. Then offer Dupal as a solution. McW could buy at value 6mth blocks of work from the drupal pool. McW has the dream & the words we have the bus why not hook up and go for a spin? Just thinking out of the box ;-)
Bren
Surely
As some eye-candy, and used well, Flash stuff is effective and isn't too hard to achieve. We're doing some Drupal/Flash integration at the moment. I work with a guy in Chamonix, France, who's very quick and not too pricey either. ;-)
(Thanks for pointing me to that review, btw! I was just about to have someone write custom XML output in a Views TPL file - didn't occur to me to use the Views Datasource module which already outputs XML!)
Greg
--
http://www.cmspros.co.uk
pressflow
you make some very good points about using pressflow. that too would be a very good option.
dub
Thanks
It's pretty awesome. I think it's one of those forks that will slowly work its way in to Drupal as part of #smallcore, because so many of the architecture and code tweaks within it make so much sense there would be no point in core not taking them on. But it'll take a while. I think they'll still need a Pressflow for Drupal 7. Perhaps not Drupal 8. Here's hoping! If you wanted Enterprise support, you could switch on to Acquia Drupal if/when the best bits of Pressflow go in.
Or maybe Acquia will support you anyway if you sign up for the Gold plan, even if you're using Pressflow. They seem pretty flexible about what they'll support, if you're paying enough wad! =P
BTW
I've not been logging IRC to disk (doh!!) but I did have a chat with one of the Economist guys on there. AFAIK there are Amazon EC2 profiles you can just spin up that includes all the Pressflow and Varnish stuff ready to go - would be worth checking out. More info here:
http://getpantheon.com/mercury