Posted by dougvann on November 4, 2016 at 7:08am
Question:
Is anyone seeing a drop in attendance at Camps and User Groups?
Certainly, some specific events are growing or staying steady. Larger cities may be immune from attrition to a degree.
I invite your feedback on the topic of what you have observed in {A} your local group and {B} the camps you have attended.
THNX!
Comments
My take on this.
I will go ahead and share my theory....
L.A., ATL, Chattanooga, Ohio, & I believe Asheville, are 5 camps that have decreased in size over the years. I, myself, have slowed way down from my height of 12 in one year to now doing 2 or 3 a year. But that is largely b/c I'm busy delivering Drupal services and my growing client base demands more of my attention. But it is also for the reasons stated below.
It appears that many ppl are somewhat concerned that they will attend an event and it will be all about Drupal 8 which they aren't really using yet. We know that many end-users attend camps and UGs especially when their employer sends them. If that employer is on D7 it would stand to reason that they may see less value in sending them along. Likewise, many developers have yet to seek out D8 clients and are spending 40+ hrs a week working on D7. Many of these same individuals realize that attending a camp or 2 all about D8 isn't going to equip them to go out and suddenly be able to deliver a D8 project.
... ok ok ....
This is the part where I upset ppl and exclaim that D8 was SUCH A HUGE SHIFT in technology that you can't simply run through api.drupal.org and pick up the differences in a couple of weeks. You have GOT TO BE dedicated learning many new things and must become pretty good at using a variety of new tools.
So be it... Go for it...
But is it costing us some attendance?
Me thinks so.
You? :-)
South Africa
Let me share too ;-)
We saw a massive drop in meet-up attendance here. Some obvious reasons were just not enough to account for that (our biggest, in Johannesburg - Bryanston lost its venue).
I suspect you have it right there dougvann on two accounts (though one's not stated as such).
Drupal 8 adoption does take a lot of time and meet-ups may not be as relevant if their topical content doesn't match your current work, but it goes both ways. If meet-ups presented Drupal 7 content, Drupal 8 shops' people may not attend. So this is purely transitional. everyone here seems pretty focussed on Drupal 8 in terms of learning, so expect more Drupal 8 content at meet-ups.
But, your own reason for not making it to as many meet-ups is the reason I think we're facing lower attendance. We're busy. Way too busy. So we become selective and then the meet-ups become anaemic so that fewer of them also make sense to make time for in our busy schedules.
In terms of Drupal work we're still 100% Drupal 7, but I'd not make any time investments on Drupal 7, so wouldn't really see the value of attending a Drupal 7 meet-up. Drupal 8's only for a few internal projects right now, but it is also our future, so worth every minute of investment.
It is of course, also silly season right now (busy run-up to December holidays). I'm guessing we may see a revival of attendance either in the beginning of 2017 or 2018 (first half of the year being a bit quieter for business, but the 2017 cycle still being early in the adoption cycle for everyone).
Excellent Points!
I think you're right. 2017 will be the big test.
I maintain that D8 is likely beyond the reach of many of the ppl who once attended events.
Tomorrow I deliver my 1st all day Drupal 8 beginners class in Chattanooga Tennessee. It will be among the smaller classes I have done in years. The camp is down significantly from years past.
I will definitely be asking the audience how they feel about D8 and what their plans are in the future. I am not hoping to find a backlash against D8, but I have felt that there is one and I don't think ppl accept that the huge changes came with a cost.
As a perennial Drupal event organizer, I have to wonder if the understated fear or dislike [or whatever] of D8 is in anyway behind the drop in attendance.
Only time will tell.
Audience
That poll will be to a select audience of people who have chosen to adopt Drupal 8, it may not be indicative.
You're right though, we used to have loads of Wordpress and Joomla! people at meet-ups and they're completely lost when it comes to more modern PHP such as is in use for Drupal 8.
With so many people in our community there will definitely be some forming a group with a sense of backlash. Backdrop exists, after all ;-)
I get the feeling Drupal left the mid-term PHP CMSes now, it's really more enterprise. Once the general media (Webmaster, .net magazines and awards sites) start recasting Drupal in its new role we'll also see new attendees. From the Symphony and general PHP people to those interested in future proofing their skills. But it may be prudent to be pro-active about this and go seek those people out too.
Just like Drupal <= 7, Joomla! and Wordpress where no PHP-Nukes, Drupal 8 is no Wordpress or Joomla! any more.
Another Factor?
Speaking to the various events organisers here, I get push-back in two directions. Some prefer very Drupal-only "clubs" for events. Really just Drupal talk. Others that off-the-island is better (still with a Drupal centre). For myself I like the more technically intensive and off-the-island ones as Drupal feels like the core competency we already have a lot of material for. Many organisers here have lost their interest because they would prefer to organise events with a wider scope.
The skills levels of
The skills levels of attendees at local user groups can vary quite a bit from user group to user group and sometimes even from meetup to meetup. Some groups might have a committed group of active developers anxious to learn new technologies while other groups have mostly newbies just curious about Drupal. If a user group has a lot of newbies, attendance may fall off because the barriers to entry into working with D8 seem to be much higher. With D8 we not only do we have to consider the changes with D8 and availability of contrib modules, but also the learning curves for using Composer and Console and the skills for developing custom D8 code, etc.
Plus with D8 being hyped more as an enterprise-level CMS, people like me who got started with Drupal building medium-sized business and non-profit websites (that still make up the bulk of my clientele) may be wondering what the future with D8 is for us. Some of my clients are opting to redo their sites in WP now instead of Drupal. I've lost a couple this year that way. That might account for some drop off in meetup attendance.
DSquaredB
Danita Bowman
I gotta ask...
Thanks for sharing, Donita!
I gotta ask.. Have you looked into BackdropCMS yet? I have to believe that there's a chance that you may have been able to save some of those clients.
I've done more BackdropCMS development work this year than I have Drupal. Of course, all my training and consulting has been D7 and D8.
I have looked at Backdrop. In
I have looked at Backdrop. In one case where I lost a client to WP this year, I wasn't even given a heads-up before they made the decision. They hired new marketing personnel that preferred WP and just made the decision to switch.
The other case was a poorly-built site I inherited that gave Drupal a black eye. We had many discussions and demos of a properly built Drupal site that impressed the client, but their PR/Marketing firm liked WP better and, in the end, the PR firm just won out.
Both were sites I inherited rather than built, but both had been clients for 1-1.5 years and satisfied with my service. I lost a third one this year to WP, but a second marketing team turnover in the non-profit organization resulted in them coming back to me for support of their D7 site.
There just seems to be more support for WP among marketing teams.
DSquaredB
Danita Bowman
Lost to WP
Yes DSquaredB, we also lost a few clients to Wordpress of late. Not that many, but I've estimated that we'll lose 30% of our clients if we move completely to Drupal 8 only in the new year. Some of the remaining smaller clients will remain only because we subsidise their costs because we like working for NGOs and clients in education.
Demand for work will certainly still exceed supply though, so it is just a transition to a different portion of the market. But PHP in general will change to follow more modern development practices. Wordpress will change or die too (though it's huge, so will keep momentum). With time we'll all build the skills we need and our community's ingenuity and remaining needs of smaller clients will lead to better productivity allowing us to bring costs down again... I think ;-)
We need the meet-ups to spread the skills so that this can happen. One reason we took so long to adopt Drupal 8 for our clients is that I felt it was just not mature enough. Not the usual things like contrib and documentation alone, but the best practice work-flows, time saving methodologies and people with long term experience relying on known stable helpers (for repos, site management, testing etc.) Any client wanting Drupal 8 right now will essentially be paying for us to learn and I feel that needs to be an investment of our own, not an early adopter's.
Interestingly, I don't think meet-ups are great for learning basics. I find it's best to learn basics alone, with good reference material and a lot of time. Meet-ups work well to share how each group figured out new technology, integration or development work-flows. But we're old school Stalman open source people, not new school cloud/Slack ones ;-)
All about the numbers
Losing 30% of business by moving to D8 may sound like a big hit, BUT I believe that will be made up rather quickly by the expectation of higher value projects in D8. The margins may or may not remain the same [especially as you're learning] but the full customer value is expected to rise.
This leaves Danita and me [and so many others] to figure out what we're doing.
In the meantime, D7 continues to rock. I believe D7 projects will be started and deployed well into 2017. Beyond that?
Hmmmm.....
I am committed to moving to
I am committed to moving to D8 but...
So far I have not found a project that I can build in D8. My most recent project is a redo of a D6 site. I would have loved to do it in D8 but it is a membership site that also sells some small merchandise. Contrib modules just aren't there for that functionality in D8 and, as a freelancer with no other developer support, I can't justify trying to hire someone to custom code for a project of this size - a good-sized organization but with a limited budget. D7 fit the project better.
If I worked on enterprise-level projects and/or had a team of developers working with me, it might be a different story.
But, we have totally moved beyond the original topic of this thread. I do somewhat see the topics related, though. We are all kind of confused about the future with Drupal. For myself, I am looking at offering WP services in addition to Drupal so I don't lose out on my client demographic.
DSquaredB
Danita Bowman
Can not tell a lie...
I gotta be honest..
WP could use a Trainer like me. the hardest part for me is getting as enthusiastic about WP as I am about D7 and BackdropCMS.
However... I haven't really looked into WP in many years. It is very possible that I could get rather excited about it if I took the time to look into it. One thing for sure is that the population of ppl around it is phenomenal.
Oh well..
But yes... we have steered off road with this topic. :-) [blame me for that one!]
Stats from my D8 class
Turns out the class was all pretty new to D8 and, to a large extent, Drupal as well.
I was not able to really "poll the audience" and gain any usable intel.
Oh well...
:-)
I want to say MidCamp
I want to say MidCamp attendance was basically on par with the prior year, if not up just slightly. And we are working to rebuild the Chicago meetup community via CADUG, adding on a monthly topic meetup in addition to the dev roundtable.
I build websites, push pixels, move type, make media, plan camps, tap mana, roll for initiative, eat like a boss, chase food trucks and like an #eggoneverything. Sponsor my travel and I will record and post your camp sessions!
Midcamp is a Camp among Camps!
The Midcamp team works THEIR COLLECTIVE BUTTS off to make it an amazing event every year.
I expect that camp to grow and grow.
As Kevin mentioned, the UG is also a huge effort.
Being in a huge city comes in handy, though.
I swear, if the meetup announced that next month's meetup is all about D6, there would still be a large crowd just out of curiosity and to hang out b4 and after the meeting. :-)
But don't let the big city atmos confuse you. That team has taken a big city and built a highly engaged and organized big big big city Drupal presence! :-)
Of course... BadCamp is another example of that, just with better weather and scenery to boot!
Lessons Learned from DrupalCamp Atlanta
Thanks for posting this.
We just had our #DCATL debrief and many of our opinions are similar to what you are seeing here, in addition to some specific factors that are in our city.
Low MeetUp Attendance
One of the things we tried this year was to get rid of monthly meetups and try to focus on 3 events per year. We spent so much time and energy into booking speakers for the Meetups and then 3-8 people would show up, it just killed our group morale. You can read more about our decision here: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/adug-methodology-zachary-sines
Our first event MiniCamp Atlanta was a great start to our new format. We had roughly 100 people attend a single track event (8 session) and people seemed to be quite happy as it was low cost ($20) and just another good time to hang out. Unfortunately our second event DrupalFair Atlanta we had to cancel due to low participation from companies.
DrupalCamp Atlanta.
So many factors that lead to low attendance
Late On Tasks: As the DCATL Lead I have to take the responsibility here. I was really late on getting out the call for proposals and naming a keynote speaker. It really came down to me being over confident that because we announced the date last year that I didn't put in the effort as early. You could really tell the difference and a few people mentioned my tardiness in the evaluations.
Conflicting Events:
In my opinion this was the biggest reason. Traditionally DCATL had been scheduled within the first two weeks of October but as we moved back to Kennesaw State our date selections became less and less. We ended up scheduling it at the same time as BadCamp and another local web development conference of about 500 people ConnectJs which was right down the street. Ouch!
No Drupal Companies on the Board:
Successful DrupalCamps are all about relationships within the community. Since the Atlanta Drupal Users Group (ADUG) stepped up 3 years ago to produce DCATL we have realized that none of us on the board have a working affiliation with a Drupal company. Myself at Kennesaw State, another at Georgia Tech and two others who are in the training and staffing business. While I believe the communities should be in charge of the camps this can put a strain on resources. When you look at the larger camps, Florida, BadCamp and MidCamp the one thing that you see in common is that the people organizing these camps are well known within the Drupal Community or are larger Drupal Companies, so they have more people to reach out to that are invested in Drupal. Especially their client list. Many times clients of Drupalshops come out and present what they are working on and are a resource for keynote speakers and sponsors. For 2017 we discussed reaching out to companies who use Drupal and ask for presentations and help organizing instead of just a financial sponsorship. It takes a village.
Location. Location. Location:
This along with conflicting events is something that I also believe hinders our attendance. The past 3 years we have been at Kennesaw State University and because of my affiliation it really brings the costs down. We have been so lucky with this venue as it allows us to scale up and down even days before the event. But with this low costs and scalability we pay for in distance from the city. We are about an hour ride from the Airport. And if anyone knows anything about Atlanta that can take you 2 hours to drive in the traffic. We are really struggling with this as we just cannot afford a place in town that might be more attractive.
More Drupal Events Than Ever:
Last but not least. There are just a lot more Drupal events offered these days. With the amount free/paid training resources online and the amount events that are produced now. We are all competing against each other. Its a good thing! But we should adjust our expectations.
Anyway I am sure others from our group can comment as well.
Kaleem Clarkson
DCATL - Project Lead
Kaleem S. Clarkson
www.kaleemclarkson.com
THNX!
That's a bold and honest list, Kaleem. Thnx for sharing!
Looks like you had the proverbial Perfect Storm on that one.
To my knowledge [and via the DrupalEasy Podcast] Charlotte NC was the first to bring the MiniCamp to the forefront. I was happy to hear that 100 came to your first MiniCamp. That's what many Camps have been getting since I 1st attended one in 2008.
I suspect that the MiniCamp concept just might take off as time continues. Chattanooga was 2 daze ago and hit 45 in attendance. About 1/2 or more of that was in my D8 In A Day class learning the basics. That suggests to me that what the camp contains is directly related to the draw.
As we've said... It will be interesting to watch 2017 unfold.
AND I have a suspicion that ATL Camp 2017 will go off much better than 2016. :-)
Kaleem's right on the money
Kaleem's right on the money about all of the feedback.
We really are looking at small, season-oriented camps in order to replicate the monthly meetups but with most consistent session selection(s). It was a fantastic way to offset some of the drop offs we saw in monthly meetups, and the reviews on our mini camp were largely positive (despite being a 1 track!).
And yes, we're going to be learning a lot of lessons and applying those lessons into 2017. One of the key things we aren't doing enough of is being thorough in our thanking our speakers ( https://www.fourkitchens.com/blog/article/how-make-your-speakers-happy ). They are the life of our community, after all.
Great Thread
First of all, I think this is an awesome thread! It's way better to have these honest talks than the "Drupal 8 has 3 million new contributors and is going gangbusters". I am certainly giving Drupal 8 the side-eye as I think about job security and keeping with where other developers I know are going.
A little background...I used to live in Ohio and got a peek into the Drupal meetups and Ohio camp while there. The meetups ranged from a group of people working on their projects and asking advice/questions within a knowledgeable group of people, and the standard technical presentation with some mingling before and after. The Indy meetup was actually the best one I attended in terms of dank food and beer and size (props to Doug on that), compared to Dayton and Columbus where you had 5- 10 people most meetups.
I also ended up going to a lot of camps last year, which made me a little fatigued of hearing the same Drupal talks. So, I began to question the worth of traveling to them at the end of that period.
I then moved to Boulder, CO last year and can tell you the local meetups and the CO camp have decreased in attendance. I was told Drupalcon Devner in 2012 was the largest attendance and then it tapered off after that. I still give presentations at the Boulder meetup, but I wonder sometimes why I put the time into creating a talk since it only goes out to 5 people who aren't even paying attention half the time.
Meanwhile, I try to attend other local tech meetups and see JS and Ruby groups have 100+ attendees at most meetups...well probably more like 75 due to people who always sign up but never come to a meetup. When I go into one, I feel like the black sheep. Even at a more generalized meetup, no one is doing PHP and people think it sux.
So, I hope and pray I can work on straight up Symfony, Angualr, React, etc. projects at work so I don't have to do so in my free time. I'm surprised no one has mentioned other tech stacks outside of Drupal/PHP in this thread. I know plenty of Drupal people who have gravitated away from Drupalisms and have better job security and career mobility from that.
+1 for the Backdrop CMS. In my brief time trying to contribute to that project, I feel like it is probably a lot more like what is was like to contribute to Drupal back in the day. I hope more people see Backdrop as a viable option to D8. D8 is just not necessary for a lot of projects, and people shouldn't feel pressured to have to move to it.
One note about camp planning I have seen...is that plans get delayed due to site/theme changes. I know front-end people love to mess with the theme every year to try things out they can't on other projects or see it as the main way to contribute, but I've been frustrated with not wanting to point people to the website because it "wasn't ready yet" when it looked great from last year's design. It's way easier to organize the content and try to blitz market to people if you can have the camp site up really early...end rant.
But to summarize my contribution to this thread, I think people are looking at what's going on in web development these days and seeing ways they can utilize other tech stacks without Drupal getting in the way. Clients I think, maybe larger ones, are hearing about Angular and React and are probably asking questions about using them or wanting to have a front end team use them with a seemeless backend integration. I am certainly trying to look beyond Drupal, which is ironically what the motto of Drupal 8 was: getting off the island. Well, a lot of people have taken that opportunity to actually get off the island, see the greener grass, and they stop coming to Drupal gatherings and join the throngs of JS dev orgies. I want to be included in orgies, and the Drupal orgies are just not that fun anymore.