I'm pulling mfer's comment out of a discussion to start a new one so it doesn't get lost. (I think part of the answer is us answering the question!)
The web has brought with it huge gains in the potential to teach, interact with others, explore tough questions, and more. But, you are right that feasibility for most churches to take advantage of this stuff is hard. Most churches don't have the skill to do such a thing. Sure there are companies but your average church in American, for example, is already struggling for money and only a couple hundred people in size. On top of that, according to reports I've read, the idea of teaching and working through those though questions is not something we see happening in those churches in the first place.
All this makes me wonder how we can increase the feasibility.

Comments
It's a matter of priority
My answer is very much based on the culture and experiences I experience. It may be entirely different in the mid-west or west coast. I'm from the north east of the USA, all my life. I crossed the Mason-Dixon line for college and am glad to be back. :-) If you're experiences differ, I'd really like to hear about it.
So to Matt's question...
I don't think it has much to do with available resources. Instead, I think it has to do with the average church pastor and member's understanding of the potential of the Internet. So the question becomes first, how do we bridge that gap. Once they reach the other side, it becomes priority and gets funding, attention and time.
God has given us the vision and the tools and the ability to do it. In my mind, that makes it our responsibility, or maybe even calling. If he's tasked us with it, we need to figure out how to make it happen. For sure, we can't do it on our own so we need to share this vision with other people. We need to figure out how to share it in their language. Pastors, elders and/or deacons don't speak code or design. They speak relationships and/or administration. Put another way, we have to connect our vision with their priorities in a way that shows our support for them.
When leadership becomes passionate, excited and active about it through whatever means needed, they will be followed. They are the people everyone is already looking to for direction. The membership follows the leadership. Most churches I've been around say they want things organic, but don't have a structure that allows this to happen. They are still very hierarchical. That's all most church leadership is familiar with. We have to start our work inside that system. (Coincidently, I think building community online will help the church become more organic as it moves away from the building and rooms associated with the church.)
Passionate leadership is also important because even if the site gets funding (say from a volunteer) not getting time activity from church leadership can kill it. I've lost a couple of times because I couldn't get content for a site I'd volunteered for. I'm sure none of you have had that problem. :-)
Then there is the other side, what about churches we aren't in. I'd say one church at a time for my purposes, but perhaps we could collectively run a site dedicated to such topics. G&G is taking a huge step forward on that and MFer's blog Innovating Tomorrow is another great resource in this effort.
More Than One Reason
I think we have identified a couple things going on here.
First, not all churches see the potential the Internet and a rocking website can bring them. For some churches there is a load of untapped potential. For other churches a website isn't going to do much for them. An example we've used on the G&G podcast is that of a church in a rural area where a number of people in the small congregation don't have Internet. It doesn't make sense for that church as it doesn't fit into their culture and lives. For a suburban church with a large youth program where over 90% of the kids are on the net and active it makes sense. So, how can we show churches who would benefit from a rocking web presence what it means and can do for them?
Second, there are a lot of churches who see the potential but pull it off terribly. They may fail to have a good site. They might fail to take advantage of it. There are a lot of ways I've seen church sites fail at this stuff. How can we help them to be successful?
I see a few things that need to come together:
This seems like a problem that covers a lot of areas and disciplines. For me (the engineer) this sounds like fun. Thought?
Matt Farina
www.innovatingtomorrow.net
www.geeksandgod.com
www.superaveragepodcast.com
www.mattfarina.com
Fun indeed!
Fun, if for no other reason, it'll expand my own understanding of all these skills. I'm in the process of working through much of this where I am working.
For those that aren't aware, the Internet Ministry Conference is a great place to find things about use cases of ministry on the Internet, though largely para-church. I'll be attending that and would love to see you guys all there. Registration Deadline Aug. 31st: http://www.internetministryconference.org/. I've been signed up for this conference since before it was open to the public back in Jan. or Feb. and have gone twice. It is a great conference and they have a great venue.
As far as going into the world... :-) That's what the guys I'm working with specialize in, we're a mission agency, that's exactly what we do! That isn't a problem here. I may suffer from the "too deep in to see the true problem" syndrome that drupal is recovering from now in the usability area. :-)
The culture thing is important. In my case, this has been best done one-on-one, through sharing my passion and the stories of others. I've been collecting stories about this sort of thing. My mom has been using facebook statuses as her prayer list of late and enjoys being able to use the comment feature to ask details about the people's status and let them know she is praying for them. Another lady I know has managed to pull in a huge group of blog readers who she has exhorted in their Christian walk as young ladies due to her connection with a college and through participating in other people's blogs. Another guy I know has been talking with me about how he can use facebook as a witnessing tool to his son's friends. My wife uses MeetUp as an opportunity to meet other mom's of toddlers, build relationships and share her faith. The Internet maintains the relationships, but the personal connection in real life accelerates the relationships. I can also speak to the way I've had my eyes opened to what the opposing view points really are rather than what a Christian tells me they are by having actual conversations with non-Christians in a non-threatening way. When I sense someone is open to it, these capture people's attention.
In all realism, I find that I'm stereotyped as the tech-guy though. Many people seem to assume the things I like to share are better left with the tech guy and have no practical value to themselves, especially as the age increases or exposure to the Internet decreases. Getting past that is rough. My strategies so far have been to excite my wife about it and watch her share, powerful with women. :-) Alternately, I focus on some other individual with influence. Since coming to FIM, I've seen 1/4 of the board of director's join facebook with some ongoing activity. That's exciting to me and they are increasingly encouraging and exciting about my ministry. :-) That's good for the agency, but it sure helps me a lot to have their support!
:-) Simple Tools is a driving element in my side-contracting business (just check the front page). I want to give them the power of Drupal but hide the complexity. I think we need more people trying to stand up that sort of thing. As has been mentioned, there are services that do so with their own CMS things. My biggest beef with them is that they are very inflexible. A church can't pickup the site and take it elsewhere if they have a problem. They are looking at a total rebuild. In my mind, the greatest benefit of providing the service of drupal hosting for churches with a personal attention is that they can take their database, modules and theme and build their own server from an old P3 running off the church DSL line if they really want to stop paying me a monthly maintenance fee. However, that isn't a priority that most churches probably think to look for.
Power without user-interface compexity - AMEN & AMEN!
"I want to give them the power of Drupal but hide the complexity."
AMEN & AMEN!
It is easy for geeks to get lost in the technology but everyone else is busy expressing their own gifts to the benefit of the Body and don't have time or interest to invest - they just want it to serve as a useful tool or get out of the way!
I am fascinated by the technology as well but am occupied with many other facets of ministry - I need our Web site to be lower maintenance and higher value. Drupal has the tools, in theory, but I'd sure like to see more of them in practice.
http://firstbaptistchurchsh.com
Pastor David
http://thebridgechristianlifecenter.com
Pastor David
Thanks for the feedback. I'm
Thanks for the feedback. I'm really glad to hear that resonates with you. :-) I'm hoping it will with other not so techy pastors.
Missing Some Big Things
I'm going to go out on a bit of a limb here and say that what I've seen in the sessions (though I have not been) at the Internet Ministry Conference and what we talked about at the Geeks and God Conference missed some big areas in relation to the future of the church on the web. I'm not even referring to implementation details, which are easy to debate, but entire topic areas.
Matt Farina
www.innovatingtomorrow.net
www.geeksandgod.com
www.superaveragepodcast.com
www.mattfarina.com
Yeah, IMC doesn't really
Yeah, IMC doesn't really touch on churches much at all. That isn't the audience they tend to have. What topic areas are you thinking of?
Education is a big one
Education is a big topic that's missed. It's not hard to argue that God says to love the Lord our God with all our mind. With the number of studies being published it's not tough to see that well over 50% of kids leave high school and leave the church. When asked why their primary reason is that they were never taught a reason for their faith and they go off to college where professors are 5 times more likely to be atheist and they are giving reasons against there being a God.
I could go on but, education seems to be a weak point in the church.
Matt Farina
www.innovatingtomorrow.net
www.geeksandgod.com
www.superaveragepodcast.com
www.mattfarina.com
doctrine = good
IMO - the reason for education being weak is that we have absorbed much of the low-value of truth from our culture.
If truth does not matter, then why would education be important?
In the charismatic churches I grew up in, experience was valued much more, and doctrine was viewed as divisive and to be avoided.
This makes us easy prey for the arguments of men.
Due to our sinful hearts, we drift towards believing that truth does not matter by default - but in addition to this it is taught by the news, media, schools, and games all around us.
We need God's help, and to be very intentional in our churches and everyday fellowship to counteract these things.
I'm pretty techie as pastors
I'm pretty techie as pastors go, probably capable of hacking an existing theme or script when necessary, but not a coder per se.
I'd love to see a list of successful church/ministry sites. I love what fshbwl.com is and would like to see more sites like it, not like in the sense of copying function, but in the sense of doing something new to see the broad range of what people are doing out there besides just forums.
That also leads to a different question: can a Drupal system integrate/communicate with a mobile application? iPhone apps have been in the news a lot lately. Could an iPhone app access content from a Drupal database? Is there any plan for a sort of "Mobile Drupal" wrapper beyond just the theme?
Pastor Dale
http://crossfeednews.com/podcast
Pastor Dale
http://crossfeednews.com/podcast
Yes it can
Yes, drupal can work with mobile devices beyond the iPnone theme. I just haven't seen anyone do it yet.
Matt Farina
www.innovatingtomorrow.net
www.geeksandgod.com
www.superaveragepodcast.com
www.mattfarina.com
I am unfamiliar with some of
I am unfamiliar with some of the iPhone-related terminology here.
I can access our Web site with my Blackberry Pearl, are you talking about being able to edit a Drupal site using a handheld pda-phone?
That would be cool! Editing on the fly.
http://firstbaptistchurchsh.com
Pastor David
http://thebridgechristianlifecenter.com
Pastor David
I'm thinking not necessarily
I'm thinking not necessarily an entire site, but maybe just one view. Maybe it's a running conversation--I don't know what the content would be. The point would be that it's distributed via the same channels used to distribute mobile software, like Apple's iTunes app store or you favorite Blackberry software site. It would be a downloadable application that displays content and allows some degree of interactivity.
http://www.crossfeednews.com/blog/pastordale/christian_mobile_software for some of the ideas and thoughts I've come up with.
Pastor Dale
http://crossfeednews.com/podcast
Pastor Dale
http://crossfeednews.com/podcast
Strange Content - Interesting Layout
http://www.fshbwl.com/ sure is challenging to sort out doctrinally but has some intriguing elements in the layout.
A list of URL's to really basic Drupal sites containing commonly popular elements would be valuable, including such info as:
Key features (e.g. calendar, image upload, document upload, distributed or solitary maintenance, moderated forums).
Cost to set up by a consultant (link to consultants with a disclaimer)
http://firstbaptistchurchsh.com
Pastor David
http://thebridgechristianlifecenter.com
Pastor David
SiteOrganic
I stumbled upon this media group and wanted to see what you guys think http://www.siteorganic.com/
as it relates to feasibility for churches and if this is superior to Drupal which I don't think it is at first glance.
Keep looking...
Siteorganic was discussed here: http://geeksandgod.com/forum/gutensite-cms-heard-it
Having worked on both, there is no question Drupal is a far superior platform (in terms of response time, feature set and ease of administration). However, there are many small churches who do not have the time or expertise to develop a suitable Drupal site in house and it may make sense to seek the aid of a professional developer. Even if this is your case, I would advise against using SiteOrganic. Contact me if you'd like the additional details. Blessings! -NP
How is SiteOrganic related
How is SiteOrganic related to GutenSite? I missed that somehow.
Unrelated, but...
As far as I know they are completely unrelated. However, the lead developers from both projects posted in that thread. Blessings! -NP
Sites need clear vision
(should change the title to "Average Church" - not all folks are American ;-) )
One thing I've noticed about sites, be they Church, business or even just personal ones, is that if you don't have a vision, your site goes nowhere...
Sites with vision usually have passionate people behind them who give the site love and care, and generally keep it updated and whatnot. Our church site has not been updated in a while because apart from me, no one actually seems to have any interest in it. My pastor has been saying "we must get a few folks together and chat about the site" for the last 2 years now...
I finally got a bee in my bonnet the other day and went and updated the mission block, tweaked some of the templates and moved some of the categories and things around. Now the site looks much better, just because I took a little bit of time and invested in my vision of the site.
You can have the best site in the world, but without vision and a little bit of time each month invested in the site, it's not going to go anywhere.
Yeah, figuring out how to
Yeah, figuring out how to infect others with that vision is critical. I ran across an article today that may be relevant... http://nten.org/blog/2008/08/20/preparing-your-staff-members-for-a-techn...
Churches With No Vision
If a church has a website with no vision it makes me wonder if that church has a clear vision.
Matt Farina
www.innovatingtomorrow.net
www.geeksandgod.com
www.superaveragepodcast.com
www.mattfarina.com
We've been stalled for
We've been stalled for months due to endless government interference/nitpicking in the construction of our new multipurpose building. Meanwhile a lot of changes to ministries based on that building have languished. It was sapping energy from the church so we just started to make changes to the old building and to begin some new ministries so that the Enemy was not winning.
Meanwhile we have loaded our Web site with words of encouragement and pictures of activities so it is clear that we are alive, well, and active.
We just authorized a new church name Wed and this morning received State affirmation that they have accepted the amendment to our corporate "papers".
We are now "The Bridge Christian Life Center".
http://TheBridgeChristianLifeCenter.org
Pastor David
http://thebridgechristianlifecenter.com
Pastor David
This is why I gave up on the
This is why I gave up on the idea that judging a church by it's website was a bad idea. I just found that in my church hunt, good vision was directly connected to websites that someone could be proud of.
Churches with no Clarity
mfer wrote:
True, but I'd agree with you even more if it was reworded just a little. How about this?
If a church as a website with no clarity it makes me wonder if that church has a clear vision.
Some churches don't necessarily understand what they can do with their website, that's what we're trying to help. But if their website leaves the reader completely clueless about the church's vision, I'd be a little more worried about deeper issues.
Micah