Drupal on Wikimatrix - welcome `Drupal Wiki`

EugenMayer's picture

Hello together,

Drupal(wiki) is now officially listed on the wiki-comparision page #1 : www.wikimatrix.org

We are happy to announce the successful implementation of Drupal as Wiki in the Drupal Wiki project. It is build on vanilla Drupal 6 and creates a new level of integration of Wikis or even more precise, for Drupal in Intranet-Applications.

Unfortunately we couldn´t use existing wiki modules, as they didn´t fulfill the functionality and usability we had in mind. Instead we had to create a set of ~ 30 new modules which cope with all the fields you also often talk about in this group. Some of those modules are already released on drupal.org like:

  1. WYSIWYG Image Upload
  2. Tagging
  3. Content Locking
  4. Content Moderation
  5. jQuery UI Dialog API

We did not aim to cope with the MediaWiki or DokuWiki functionalities only, we rather aimed higher to cope with Foswiki, Mindtouch or Confluence functionalities and go for the enterprise market and do something Drupal is designed for: Compete with the best and have a great usability. At the end we created a full fledged Enterprise 2.0 Wiki.

So yes, it is possible to use the Drupal Application Platform to create a flexible Wiki and Intranet solution for different usecases:

  • Documentation
  • Knowledge management
  • Quality management
  • Workflows and process descriptions
  • Document management

Of course we integrated great Web 2.0 features of Drupal like blogs, news, activity streams, shares, tagging and other taxonomies. We also included the wide promoted faceted search, so the same approach we have on drupal.org right now.

We are trying to establish Drupal on this new sector, but especially to prove to the outside world, that our all Drupal is much more then a CMS - its an Application Framework in one of its best examples.

We promoted Drupal on the CeBIT 2010 in Germany as well as to the Wiki-Birthday article (15 years). If you like to know more, join me on my talk about Drupal in the Enterprise on the Drupal Dev Days in Munich.

So we are here to tell you, that Drupal has just went to deal with the wiki and intranet market and spread the Drupal-Drop all over :)

Cheers

Eugen

Comments

Awesome

mradcliffe's picture

Awesome.

I'm curious. When it comes to enterprise applications I hope you're using already established modules and/or distributions (casetracker, Open Atrium, cck). In my opinion the only thing that was a good node_access module, a good wiki linking/node relationships module, pluggable wiki wysiwyg module to pull it together (pluggable as in format neutral).

Can you go into more about not using already published modules or helping development of them?

On another note. Did you work on any import modules for foswiki/twiki? I was working on one myself, slowly, last year, but got distracted as always (plus i had to develop for an old version of twiki).

Import of Foswiki / Twiki

EugenMayer's picture

Yes we have written a complete into-drupal-migrator that abstracts the whole task of a migration. We can support a lot of "import clients" that way, like mediawiki, dokuwiki.

Yet we have full implemented the Foswiki and Twiki client, so we can migrate both of them ( including topics, attachments, images, links[intern/extern], meta data (also special form data), users. We can migrate 4.1.x, 4.2 / 4.3.x of TWiki and all current Foswkis. Actually thats the case because we come from Foswiki/TWiki and used them for our clients for years ( together with MediaWiki ), so we knew all the tricks/gimmicks there. Thats why it has been done first. Actually migrating a text-based TWiki with all those macros is much harder as doing so with MediaWiki or a lot of other wikis which are far less powerful.

Established modules:
Well we neither used casetracker nor OpenAtrium, but of course we use CCK, Views in a deep and unhacked way. Also we support the WYSIWYG module, workflow and some others, but we rather written a lot more for integration reasons.

It takes you quiet some time to develop all those modules you listed and espcially integrate them. On of the hardest things to cope with are sideeffects. A lot or lets same most of the Drupal modules do get into troubles running together with 130 others :)

Yes most of our plugins are not published, some of them will get published from time to time to give the community back what we also get from them. I think most of the plugins we will release will handle with usability bottlenecks, especially when you take the normal user into the "backend" (well yes we dont seperate those backend/frontend things in drupal to hard, but yes there is a difference).

Trial version?

David Latapie's picture

Hello,

I am interested in your product, because none of the wiki implementation on Drupal satisfied me. It there any knid of online trial version? Video or screenshots are not enough for me if I am going to pay.

Plus, is Drupal wiki a "blackbox" solution or is it possible to extend it with other standard Drupal Modules? The reason is I want my site to also use Storm (or other project management module) as well as a forum.

Thank you.

Thanks for the interest

EugenMayer's picture

Thanks for you interest, but this is simply the wrong place to discuss those things.

what is this?

liquidcms's picture

What is this exactly? Wiki as a SaS.. as in you provide a hosted Wiki solution based on Drupal? Is this correct?

I am trying to put together a wysiwyg wiki that has OG support. Some of what you have here looks close but of course not usable as a SaS as we have a very large OG based site that needs a Wiki.. not a need for a Wiki site that needs a ton of customization to add all the features we support.

But maybe i am missing the point here?

SaS - one option

EugenMayer's picture

Well we actually provide both. Right now we are actually bringing the solution in-house to the customers.

Starting from may, there will be a SaS solution with a monthly payment. The solution will be hosted on a highavailability server (redundant slave), encrypted backups and a full service by the provider. We will not cover the hosting ourselfs, that will be made by 3d party compony that is specializied on that field. You can scale into nearly every size, while we differ from SaS-starters and SaS-experts with higher needs (cold-slaved, cloud-hosting with a MYSQL and Memcache cloud, where you can book performance on demand) and so forth.

OGs - we call them project-rooms - are part of the solution. They are fully integrated.

But iam not sure we are getting offtopic here, iam not trying to missuse this group for pure marketing. It was more about telling the drupal community, that drupal gets further and further, covering new fields and compete pretty good at those. If you look at http://www.wikimatrix.org/show/Drupal-Wiki and compare it to other high-class wikis you will see, that Drupal looks pretty good.

And thats the story - Drupal is just pretty good and we love it! :)

But iam not sure we are

David Latapie's picture

But iam not sure we are getting offtopic here, iam not trying to missuse this group for pure marketing. It was more about telling the drupal community, that drupal gets further and further, covering new fields and compete pretty good at those. If you look at http://www.wikimatrix.org/show/Drupal-Wiki and compare it to other high-class wikis you will see, that Drupal looks pretty good.

Thank you for clarifying this. This is honourable from you to prevent any switch of topic in your favour. I will than not discuss your product anymore here :)

Thanks you!

EugenMayer's picture

Feel free to contact me anytime using email or the drupal contact form :)

let me know

liquidcms's picture

Dave: how is this off topic? it was Eugen's thread to start with. If he wants to showcase a Wiki SaS offering they have developed using Drupal i think no better place to do it that the d.o Wiki group. Even if not available to developers it gives us an idea of what can be done.

Eugen: as i said; doubt your offering could be of any use to me.. but should you ever release any of this to the community i would be very interested in your wysiwyg plugins for adding links to existing and as-of-yet-created wiki pages. Could alos fund development for some of this work.

Eugen asked for it

David Latapie's picture

I understood that Eugen prefered to avoid talking about Drupal Wiki per se on a thread that was mainly about Drupal Wiki inclusion in wikimatrix.

How about releasing it as a

siliconmeadow's picture

How about releasing it as a distro ;-)

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jerwilkins's picture

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ClearXS's picture

There we go... For some years no-one build on the present wiki modules, probably because no-one financed it. And now there is finance to make private wiki projects, which modules stay private. Understandable that companies who pay for development should protect their investments. But is this the future for Drupal?

Haven't used the content

kamikazeinc's picture

Haven't used the content moderation module yet, but from what I've tried so far most wiki features can be reproduced by present wiki modules. A sort of demo

Status

EugenMayer's picture

We have developed 56 modules for getting the wiki-features done that way, that the users can actually use them.

Drupal has never been really build that way, that end users are surfing through the "backend" - so being able to edit all the time and see the local task and things like this. It never has been designed that way ( at least Drupal 6 ) and thats where you will need a lot of work to go into.

Eg. dont be blinded. You will patch a big number of modules to get them work with drupal core revisioning, even large projects. Getting real content revisioning done in drupal is a pain. And did you ever think about revisioning of attachments which is state-of-the-art in other wiki`s? There are really a lot of pitfalls on the way and the current wiki-modules are kind of trying to immitate wiki-functionality by saying:

"if everybody can edit - thats it!". But even every Media-Wiki can do more then this - much more. And drupal itself is of course capable of much more, but its quiet some work.
In this field drupal is like a diamon. Its valuable but you have to grind it (quiet a lot)

@ClearXSClearXS:
I think there will be more products for drupal in the future, yes. And i think that drupal will benifit from all this, as it gets more spreaded, more known and more accepted. Some of those modules will start to be private but from time to time they will get released and contributed back. Most companies just need a time-advantage and are not against contributing back.

So actually i think its rather good for drupal, as companies can invest more money due to the better protection. Most of them will release those quality plugins later which would probably never created in the wild.

A good example would be usability. Most of the devs on d.o. are not focusing on it, thats why most of the modules are shipped pretty "raw". They are functional but mostly only useable for techs. Why is it that way? My personal view is, that in the wild devs dont have the time to focus on those tasks like usability and they dont have the skills for - they have other skills. They most probably dont have a usability expert and a UI-designer next to them to assist them in that field. So in the end they create all those "backend work" and leave the UI alone with "well everything is done, if needed, just a proper UI is to be created". But as we all know, creating a good UI is a bunch of work.

And thats what companies can change(if they are up to it, of course).

Shouldn't Call It Drupal

markwk's picture

I admire the fact that you've used Drupal to build a more robust wiki. I myself have struggled multiple times to get a wiki area to work well in Drupal compared with other packages out there.

I admit this is a commercial project. But it is deceptive marketing to call it Drupal-Wiki and have to pay to use it. Drupal is an open-source project. Call it whatever you want, but using the word Drupal in your name indicates something other than what it is. Having it listed alongside these other free and open-source wiki systems and then to suddenly see it listed as propitiatory would give a bad first impression to some new to Drupal and ultimately it is shameful to how Drupal works. There is a sadly under-supported Drupal Wiki Installation profile, which your project might be able to significantly help or release your own.

In my humble opinion, you shouldn't call it Drupal

Thanks for the feedback

EugenMayer's picture

Thanks for the feedback. I got a different opinion though.

Wikimatrix does not list only free wikis at all and it is not intended by the platform to do this. There are full-commercial wikis alonside with commercial open source and free open source. You should defently look up what open source means. To bring it to the point, open source (OS) is not free open source software ( FOSS).

We dont even thing that there is yet a model / project in the wiki-sector which is successfuly build OS. Most of them lack very much on usability or a lot of features. Thats most probably one of the reasons you chose to create a wiki using Drupal, doesnt it? Because the wikis yet do not fit properly in your use-case or even are not flexible enaugh nor usable.

Neither OpenOffice, MYSQL, nor even Linux-Children lik Suse, Redhat would then be "open source" by you definition, as they all have paid products / profiles.

There are a lot of media-wiki`s arround which are developed the same way. And they all have one thing together: They hardly ever get used in a corporate enviroment because of the lack of the things i mentioned.

Drupal Wiki would simply not exist, if it would not be paid. If you expect a team of developers (full time) to invest time over more then 2 years into a product, thinking about also they have to pay feed and by bread and butter, iam not sure how you would end up managing this. Giving it away for free and nothing, how should those people live on this? It is a huge investment building such a full-fledged and integrated product on base of Drupal, and it already payed back to Drupal itself ( Tagging module, WYSIWYG image upload module, content lock, jquery_ui_dialog, drush_make_ui... content_moderation and some more).

Drupal Wiki does exist, because we have chosen a model where customers have to pay for it, so we can pay invoices and solaries.

It is build on a vanilla Drupal 6, without any hacks or tricks. So its defintly o.k calling it that way ( my opinion ). And it does not harm Drupal at all. It does spread the word of Drupal.

It does actually show, what Drupal is capable of, what you can achieve with it and that it is not only a first class CMS but rather a application plattform. We are showing this to the middle to bigger sized companies, which wonder everytime "what is Drupal" - and then it becomes the "wow effect".

As we are giving back to Drupal, as we are developing, maintaing and supporting modules full time. So iam sorry to say it that way, but i find it very ignorant to say, that we are harming Drupal by calling it Drupal Wiki. We are helping Drupal, in every single term.

How is the normal Web-Designer who build a normal web-site using 50 Drupal modules and not giving back one nor stating on the site, that it is Drupal, helping Drupal? Are you also against those telling their clients, they used Drupal? Are you also against that wall? How do those give back to the community? How many people are just using it without doing anything?

We are taking Drupal to the hight-profile customers and getting it set into the company. And this opens the doers for the different sectors of the company to use Drupal for there website, portal or other projects. "Becaus yes, we already have a successful Drupal project in hour house. We are also used to it and things like views, cck and the workflows. Lets take Drupal!"

Sorry, no way we are harming our lovely Drupal - can`t see even one single case. Its not free - yes. But its an good door opener.

And not a "lets invent pure technology without guidience with Drupal and be sure it fails and Drupal will never ever get used by this customer anymore..".

Free and Enterprise Versions

markwk's picture

I guess I figured you'd have a strong opinion against mine.

I did not state that open source development does not include enterprise solutions nor money. Some of the best and strongest projects have both. The examples you listed do indeed have a strong commercial component but they are also strongly contributing an open source "product" as well. They have a free version and they have an enterprise version.

Ultimately the clients you are referring are rarely interested in putting together a fully customized site themselves. They aren't computer or web companies, their business is elsewhere. That's exactly where most Drupal shops come in--personalization, theming, security, optimization, etc. In fact, that's what the Drupal platform does best offer a vanilla base for specializing in several ways depending on the sites specs, and many Drupal shops do indeed focus on different aspects.

And no I didn't say you were harming Drupal, I said you were giving a bad or false impression. OA, Drupal Commons, Managing News, EduGlu and various other Drupal installation profiles are out there for people to try and for new developers (like myself) to learn from and perhaps help.

My point is not to bash or belittle your efforts. Go commercial. Make a truly robust and stable product that companies want, want more than say MediaWiki or whatnot. But at the same time offer a free, stable example installation profile of a Drupal Wiki.

Your clients can try it. Developers can learn from it. And people elsewhere can use it and give you publicity. Companies will come back and say, I tried the demo but what I also need is this or that...

Food for thought...

There will be a free version

EugenMayer's picture

There will be a free version of Drupal Wiki for, but even creating this profile needs time and a lot of effort and maintaince, support and infrastructure.
You dont want to release a half baked demo, which has issues because you removed some functionalities or similar.

There is no doubt people would benfit of this profile but i highly doubt the economical use of this.

ClearXS's picture

To my opinion a reasonable Drupal Wiki doing what both MediaWiki(more public) and FosWiki(more groups & private) do & using similar protocols for exchange etc., is a major missing in Drupal, as well as that it might be a merge of some characteristics of the two most popular; MediaWiki with FosWiki that doesn't exist elsewhere? I understand you've developed something like that for a company?

Of-course a company invests for the goal to make a future profit, no discussion about that. And these investments probably can't be earned back by delivering additional services only (like server, wiki-cloud, or whatever)?

I think the name "Drupal Wiki" might be conflicting, but I'm not into Drupal.org rules; if that's a proper name for a commercial product (Drupal is copyright protected by Dries, so suppose it's up to him)

For me, I actually don't care about the name, until there might be another "Drupal Wiki" that is for free.

Hoping for a free merge of MediaWiki, FosWiki and Drupal; that would solve most global wiki problems to my opinion! I'm only working on non-commercial projects, like free independent media with volunteers. To my opinion smoothly merging mediawiki+foswiki+drupal, can be so powerful for free media, but seldom there is commercial money to pay for programs (and when there is, the free media might not be so free anymore, as 'who pays, who controls').

Yes, I have a suggestion and question for your company: What if they make a clear contract with Drupal.org for allowing their commercial activities with using the name "Drupal Wiki" + giving the software for free to individual users and non-commercial ideological groups, who don't receive a lot of money?

Free Distro?

markwk's picture

I'm trying to implement a simple wiki for students and educational groups. Any progress on a free distro?