Chat transcript for IRC meeting

drupal-dojo is logged at http://www.disobey.com/bot/log/drupal-dojo

The file chatlog.txt attached to this post also has the full text, with names of all who participated.

[19:05:54] * agentrickard_ has joined #drupal-dojo
[19:06:06] * agentrickard_ curses at his ISP
[19:06:45] ok, so we set aside two hours to answer general questions about the Knight Drupal Initative
[19:07:13] I don't see Jose Z yet. but fire away if you have questions. There is no set agenda
[19:08:19] Well, I guess I'll ask... stephthegeek seems to think I should apply for advforum. But I've looked at the apps so far and they're doing way more exciting things than adding features to the forum. Do you think it has a chance in hell? :)
[19:09:31] i don't quite know. Improving Drupal core has a chance.
[19:09:40] But is not the highest priority.
[19:09:58] For Knight. But if we say that it should be; they would listen.
[19:10:15] Well, this is contrib right now. Improving core forum is on the to do list but not sure where that's going just yet
[19:10:30] Hey Ken, how does this initiative mesh with the News Challenge? Should news-centric projects wait or try both?
[19:11:19] News-centric might wait. KDI is "community" centric.
[19:11:33] Community can but does not necssarily mean "news"
[19:11:54] Michelle: my answer would be that it won't hurt to ask.
[19:11:56] What about all this stuff we've got planned for profiles? Is that related? That's communityish
[19:11:59] especially in the beginning
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[19:12:09] profiles, quite possibly
[19:12:27] http://groups.drupal.org/node/11859 is largely profile-ish
[19:12:29] http://groups.drupal.org/node/11859 => Information-Sharing using FeedAPI and Buddylist => 1 IRC mention
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[19:12:37] That would be a hard one to apply for, though... It's become bigger than me with allt he stuff sdboyer is doing and the whole mysite question
[19:13:02] As I understand it, install profiles have an important role to play to lower the barrier to entry
[19:13:06] * sdboyer spies agentrickard_!
[19:13:14] This whole KDI thing is tantalizing but not sure where I fit
[19:13:15] * agentrickard_ hey sam
[19:13:19] friendlyprimate - Wrong profiles :)
[19:13:24] hiya ken
[19:13:26] true
[19:13:36] but install profiles are very interesting to Knight
[19:13:37] ahh
[19:13:43] so not wrong
[19:13:53] only contextually :)
[19:14:03] sdboyer - What do you think about trying to apply for something for the whole profiles bit?
[19:14:19] We'd have to nail down a plan of who's doing what
[19:14:21] well, from a "user profile" standpoint, we could consider asking for funding for improvements, since someone has to write those
[19:14:23] oh right, the KDI discussion is now, totally forgot
[19:14:32] * agentrickard_ snickers
[19:14:44] I'm having a similar feeling as Michelle, I don't have a good understanding whether my idea(s) about applying fit the KDI or not..
[19:14:54] * sdboyer pulls out his list of items for KDI :)
[19:15:07] yhager: what have you got?
[19:15:18] yes, Michelle, if it's the kind of thing that Knight would be interested in, then i'd be all for hammering out some concrete plans
[19:15:21] the requirements are pretty loose, deliberately
[19:15:30] I thought about applying for a grant to ressurect assignblame, but I'm not sure it's a good idea to ask for media money for a website whose main purpose is to mock the media.
[19:15:35] sdboyer - I think that has more chance than advforum
[19:15:40] merlinofchaos - LOL
[19:15:41] The app page http://groups.drupal.org/node/10461 says "When a proposal has a high level of support" has not been permanently defined. Any initial thoughts on when a proposal will hit that mark?
[19:15:49] http://groups.drupal.org/node/10461 => KDI Application Process => 1 IRC mention
[19:15:54] http://groups.drupal.org/node/11798
[19:16:01] http://groups.drupal.org/node/11798 => Proposal review guide => 1 IRC mention
[19:16:09] bmadore: that's my best shot there
[19:16:12] agentrickard: I have wrote a module that simplifies image uploading to nodes (imagefield_crop) and would like to extend that to support more image manipulation techniques..
[19:16:14] My other worry with advforum is that I'd get it done before the app process was over. LOL
[19:16:29] yhager: definitely
[19:16:40] if others are on board with your approach
[19:16:52] let's back up for a second and take Merlin's example
[19:16:59] agentrickard_: one quick thing - wanted to make sure that you saw the note i sent around to the dev list last night/this morning; it's going to be one of the more pertinent aspects when it comes to doing the big mysite/panels/profiles/user* fun integration
[19:17:03] THis is not totally unrealistic
[19:17:15] sdboyer: not yet
[19:17:31] no worries, it's really more of a reference document, just wanted to make sure it's on your radar
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[19:17:54] agentrickard_: sure, that will have to be coordinated with the community (e.g. groups.drupal.org/image)
[19:17:54] If Merlin is going to build "assignblame" as a model site and insall profile for community-based media watchdog efforts, that is totally cool.
[19:18:11] yhager: and that's your bigest challenge
[19:18:16] agentrickard: It's why Views, Nodequeue and Panels got built. =)
[19:18:26] you know, there was talk of a media summit in Portland
[19:18:33] agentrickard_: right. I'll try to walk between the drops and not get wet.. :)
[19:18:39] perhaps we should ask for funding for something like that. A code sprint
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[19:18:59] RE the media summit -- part of our proposal could help tie in with that
[19:19:34] agentrickard_: See, now that makes it tempting.
[19:19:41] merlinofchaos: right. And if you spin the project as a toolset for others, then KDI is very interested. Gary and his team very much like the idea of installable apps that solve specific needs.
[19:19:48] we have already started looking at ways of standardizing media handling, and, as luck would have it, are already in Portland
[19:19:53] merlinofchaos: the summit idea?
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[19:20:54] agentrickard_: Setting up assignblame as a flagship for an install profile for doing small, multi-author article publishing sites.
[19:21:00] interesting - the los angeles group is also considering a media code sprint
[19:21:33] so that sounds like a proposal right there -- funding for a 3-day code summit and then a project lead to improve image handling
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[19:22:39] I think it is important, that when you read the KDI requirements, note that half of them are the Drupal mission statement.
[19:22:50] Use that as your primary guide and let Knight handle the other part.
[19:23:09] But think "replicable" and "easy"
[19:23:35] both of the first two proposals are of that nature
[19:23:44] friendlyprimate: What kind of media handling standatization do you mean?
[19:24:23] our proposal is at http://groups.drupal.org/node/11585
[19:24:25] http://groups.drupal.org/node/11585 => Local Publishing Platform and Regional Aggregation Hub => 2 IRC mentions
[19:24:35] agentrickard: ok, so, proposal #1 that i've been kicking around: i'd like to write a module that fully facilitates consensus-based decisionmaking - it'd be able to use og's logic, or any other logic for defining participants. there's a loooong discussion in i lay out how it'd work (and consensus as a formal process gets pretty well covered, if you're not familiar with it) here: which https://support.mayfirst.org/ticket/
[19:24:35] 575#comment:17
[19:24:56] we have been looking at media handling on both the publishing and aggregating end
[19:25:07] friendlyprimate: Oh.. ok, I didn't relate you to that proposal.. :)
[19:25:16] ways of simplifying media handling for content creators
[19:25:16] dunno if community decisionmaking models are the type of thing that're on Knight's radar
[19:25:29] freindlyprimiate is funnymonkey wrote slantwise
[19:25:41] and ways of simplifying media publishing on the aggregation side
[19:25:45] sdboyer: well, community decision tools might be
[19:25:52] think comunity organizing
[19:25:58] that's what i think all day long :)
[19:26:08] agentrickard: I got one more of the "would it be a good idea to apply" questions.
[19:26:15] well, when i'm not coding - yeah, i'm an organizer, and that's exactly what it'd be used for
[19:26:17] again, I would say: scratch the Drupal need first, and if Knight agrees, then great.
[19:26:23] my team is working on mapstraction integration for Drupal
[19:26:29] okie doke
[19:26:34] sdboyer: could iut be used for improving Drupal.org?
[19:26:39] absolutely
[19:26:47] that would instantly add 8 more mapping providers to Drupal
[19:26:59] mapstraction?
[19:27:04] yep
[19:27:10] link?
[19:27:10] link: http://php.net/link
[19:27:12] we'd have to think of some specific ways/places in which it'd be implemented, but yeah
[19:27:22] http://www.mapstraction.com
[19:27:48] "Mapstraction is a library that provides a common API for various javascript mapping APIs to enable switching from one to another as smoothly as possible"
[19:28:06] How would that work with all the existing map related modules?
[19:28:10] (frankly, MY vote is for openlayers..)
[19:28:33] currently Google maps is the only serious solution and it's not very stable
[19:28:33] sdboyer: I'm thinking about general infrastructure improvements
[19:28:39] generally speaking, for groups of around up to 20 people, consensus is the model of decisionmaking that does the most to promote positive community relations, a sense of buy-in, and a sense of mutual respect; in my experience anyway
[19:29:04] I think zstolar raises an interesting question. This seems like a good project; but getting community support is the tough part.
[19:29:15] sdboyer: I would agree
[19:29:34] * agentrickard once wrote a Nestoria module for DrupalCON Barcelona
[19:30:01] I believe it can become THE mapping api for Drupal, liberating the user to choose a provider
[19:30:10] but I see your point
[19:30:42] consensus does require well-defined groups, however, and afaik, the groups in the drupal community that are pretty well-defined aren't encapsulated in data on any of the d.o sites
[19:30:58] Bdragon - what's your opinion about it?
[19:31:46] well, from a KDI perspective, making it easy for people to point-and-click meetings on a map is an obvious win.
[19:32:19] but that doesn't mean that some couldn't, or shouldn't, be created - in fact, the ability to facilitate, record, archive, and make public decisionmaking processes in a way that's empowering and positive for the participants could well be sufficient justification for moving towards more defined groups
[19:32:39] sdboyer: your idea sounds fascinating.. I'm curious to see your proposal..
[19:32:55] thanks :) lemme post that link again
[19:33:10] https://support.mayfirst.org/ticket/575#comment:17
[19:33:30] sdboyer: Oh.. oops.. I missed that message in the flood..
[19:33:34] no worries :)
[19:33:45] that post is a breakdown of the rough logic that the module would employ to simulate the flow of a good consensus process
[19:34:01] about mapstraction?
[19:34:03] but there's lots of other stuff in the other posts, too
[19:34:20] Bdragon - yes
[19:34:34] since open layers comes ON TOP of mapstraction
[19:34:49] openlayers is a general GIS client.
[19:34:51] join #drupal
[19:35:13] In other words, the other way around
[19:35:13] heh
[19:35:35] instead of having an abstraction for the web gis client, you have a gis client that knows how to talk to everything.
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[19:35:54] which makes more sense for the more complex parts.
[19:36:20] There's no real difference between openlayers and say, uDig, other than the platform it runs on...
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[19:38:10] Then again, there are really two different audiences...
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[19:40:05] Our need came from not being able to use Gmap on certain parts of the world (coverage issues), and being quite limited with the choice
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[19:40:08] boing :)
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[19:40:50] we figured a solution which is not dependent on any specific provider could be of great use
[19:41:24] A solution yes, but what's the problem?
[19:41:32] I'm fine with mapstraction replacing gmap in the long run
[19:41:56] but for feature capture, nothing can replace openlayers imo...
[19:42:00] it may replace gmap module, but not Google maps as a mapping provider
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[19:42:30] openlayers would be considerd as another provider for that matter.
[19:42:40] Google really only provides a small subset of what I would consider "mapping."
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[19:42:57] I agree.
[19:43:02] are we being too off topic now?
[19:43:06] No
[19:43:13] good
[19:43:27] I'm just saying, openlayers is not really quite the same thing
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[19:43:38] zstolar: I set aside 2 hourts for a moderated chat on KDI. THis is a KDI proposal discussion
[19:44:02] Are there other general KDI questions out there?
[19:44:11] right - I had a feeling we're taking over
[19:44:42] you could move that to PM; but it's not wrong unless people are being crowded out
[19:45:06] Heh, didn't know there was a discussion going on, sorry ;)
[19:45:32] Bdragon - let's continue in d.o, and see if we can collaborate on this effort
[19:45:46] Bdragon - It's teh KDI discussion
[19:46:01] actually, I have to get back to work
[19:46:01] Bdragon: http://groups.drupal.org/node/11799
[19:46:05] http://groups.drupal.org/node/11799 => Knight Drupal Initiative question and answer => 1 IRC mention
[19:46:05] agentrickard: I know you wrote that there is no schedule nor budget definitions for the KDI. Still, some general estimations might give a better view about the process, and more perdictability on my end..
[19:46:10] ok
[19:46:37] Schedule is monthly review of Drupal-sponsored applications
[19:46:56] So, we may have our first batch to review around June 21 or so
[19:47:23] Budget is a little fluid. Knight has money available, but on a case=-by-case basis
[19:47:53] the big issue about money is the scope of the projects. They can't handle GOogle-style projects where 20 kids get $5,000 each
[19:48:13] They can do 2-3 monthly grants
[19:48:17] agentrickard: yeah - so, on to #2. i haven't quite been able to suss out from what's posted whether KDI has any interest in funding specific projects, with the idea that they are case studies for KDI's overall vision. such a proposal would necessarily include a defined process for publicizing what we learn from the case study as we go along
[19:48:35] ahh, sorry to interrupt
[19:48:50] the process is typically -- publish the release on Drupal.org and write and release documentation
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[19:48:58] but you can propose whatever you want
[19:49:14] so you might even ask for money to host a small conference -- that would be cool
[19:49:47] from a money perspective, I would think that $20 - $50 thousand is the sweet spot.
[19:49:58] However, they Knight team did not rule anything out.
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[19:50:28] If you can justify it, you can try it. Look at the news challange winners. They range from about $8,000 toi several million.
[19:50:29] agentrickard: if my proposal was denied for the month cause there was a storm of proposals (say, following this chat), would it be considered for the next month?
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[19:51:00] I would think so. FOr that we need sdboyer's decisoin maker module :-)
[19:51:07] the information publicized would probably be particularly geared towards something like a "here's what works in online communities, and here's what doesn't, and why."
[19:51:23] HAH, i hadn't even thought of that, lol :)
[19:51:35] If left to me -- and I should stress that I'm a volunteer, and anyone can take over for me -- I would skim the top 5 each month.
[19:52:22] so if we have a threshold rating of 4, and 9 proposals rated 4.0 +, I would simply take the top 5 at the time.
[19:52:45] and have 13 the next month? :)
[19:52:47] we also might simply set thresholds and move proposals when they hit the minimum (say, 10+ votes and 4+ rating)
[19:53:18] I think Kinght said they would be comfortable reviewing 5 or 6 a month
[19:53:41] When a proposal is not accepted - is there some kind of feedback?
[19:53:53] so it may be best to move things to the formal issue queue when they become elegible, and then let Knight answer the timing issue.
[19:54:08] "rejected" applications shoul be clear from the comments
[19:54:40] see http://groups.drupal.org/node/10464 for some details
[19:54:43] http://groups.drupal.org/node/10464 => KDI Frequently Asked Questions => 2 IRC mentions
[19:55:17] if you don't get a good answer why your proposal got a 2 rating, just ask -- publicly -- and hopefully everything will work out
[19:55:56] Hmm... I wonder if I should just apply for advforum and see what happens? I suppose it won't hurt. Only thing I have to lose is time spent on a proposal
[19:56:03] * zstolar has left #drupal-dojo ("Kopete 0.12.7 : http://kopete.kde.org")
[19:56:38] so is it acceptable to improve my proposal based on the comments?
[19:57:16] what to people think of a new Drupal 7 core theme project?
[19:57:19] I think so
[19:57:33] with some good advanced settings
[19:57:33] sometimes we ask for clarification
[19:57:42] Or maybe submit a new one, if I see it was totally off..
[19:57:48] fully customizable with not only colors, but sizes, layouts, etc
[19:58:06] ChrisBryant: we are having a KDI meeting at the moment, for the next hour.. thanks.
[19:58:10] yhager: if something gets moved to the "official queue", then the idea is that we will try to helop you make the proposal as good as possible.
[19:58:22] yhager: yes, I know
[19:58:22] ChrisBryant: was that a KDI question>?
[19:58:30] agentrickard: yes
[19:58:40] ChrisBryant: oops, sorry..
[19:58:51] personally, its a nice to have, but critical
[19:58:54] just getting an idea if a project like that might fall in the range or there interest in it
[19:59:00] I';d rather see some UI improvements.
[19:59:10] sure, makes sense
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[19:59:44] yhager: proposals tht get past the open rating/reviw process go here: http://drupal.org/project/knight
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[19:59:59] where they are considered "community backed"
[20:00:21] Oh.. thanks for the clarification.. I was confused whether proposal should go into g.d.o or d.o/project/knight
[20:00:28] yhager: now, if your propsals gets a low rating, we may decide to "close" it and ask you to reapply after making substantial changes.
[20:00:33] g,do,
[20:00:37] g.d.o.
[20:00:53] then we move the chosen apps to http://drupal.org/project/knight
[20:00:58] * colinsagan has quit ()
[20:01:11] That sounds like a very positive process. Thanks.
[20:01:15] see http://groups.drupal.org/node/10461
[20:01:19] http://groups.drupal.org/node/10461 => KDI Application Process => 2 IRC mentions
[20:01:37] and once you're on that list, in theory, all of Drupal wants you to succeeed.
[20:02:34] once you get "offiicial" status, Knight has some parperwork for you, and we start tracking your success.
[20:04:06] That's another question I had - what happens after you win? What is the interaction with the KDI? Do I submit reports of some sorts? Is there any kind of a process going on?
[20:04:39] ok
[20:05:04] if you 'win,' Knight brings you on board. THey have a whole grant funding, review, and auditing porocess.
[20:05:17] and along those lines, I understand Knight Foundation provides project management help
[20:05:26] not sure
[20:05:47] they have project managers who will keepo tabs on their money
[20:05:48] Is this the same as news-challenge?
[20:05:52] no
[20:05:55] it is not
[20:06:04] it';s Drupal-specific
[20:06:26] partly because they had about 100 Drupal apps for News Challenge and didn't know how to differentiate them
[20:08:32] yhager: re-reading. After you win, your promary interaction is with Knight Foundation
[20:08:43] * agentrickard can't type today
[20:09:21] no worries, it's easy to understand even if one messes up all the characters but the first and the last :)
[20:10:41] what kind of interaction would that be? weekly/monthly reports? review of schedule? review of progress?
[20:11:08] also how the money is being transferred, in parts? in full? pre/post?
[20:11:40] not sure. I just sent Jose Zamora a note asking for more details
[20:12:10] all right.. maybe you can post some info on this on g.d.o later
[20:12:17] likely in parts; but they audit.
[20:12:42] So if they gave you lump sum and you messed up; they might want parts of the money back
[20:13:00] if there are missing pieces to the documentation, just post questions (or answers) and we'll make it better
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[20:13:56] Sounds reasonable.. so I guess there is a kind of schedule and milestone definition process at the beginning of the project, and money is linked to milestones.. or something of that sort?
[20:14:03] yes
[20:14:10] but it varies from project to project
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[20:16:11] what happens if during development, research and community interaction, the project scope changes, and more (or less) money is required for it. Is this something that can be discussed with KDI during the project's development?
[20:17:10] with Knight, yes
[20:17:33] there are two groups at work here. KDI is us, the Drupal community. We're a layer between the world and Knight Foundation
[20:17:44] Once you get past KDI, you;re in Knight's hands.
[20:17:54] and those are the questions I can't answer
[20:18:39] I see. Are there docs available about knight's process?
[20:19:03] probably on their web site. As I said, I asked Jose for a link or a writeup.
[20:19:35] ok, great. I'll look it up, and track g.d.o as well. Thanks.
[20:22:11] I thought about submitting a grant proposal for Drupal end user documentation but 1. ran out of time and 2. find that each Drupal implementation varies a good deal and to some extent needs its own end user docs
[20:22:18] So I have this events views page that displays cck tpye of events as sorts by event start date if I put a filter on the view of start date greater than now only events in the future shop up - whic is great but I also want another view that only show events in he next 48 hours coming up - can't figure out the right filter for that - ideas?
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[20:24:17] ghankstef: not right now
[20:24:35] yhager: I just asked my wife, who had no relation to KDI but does lots of grant management
[20:24:58] she says, "never assume that you will be given a big lump of cash."
[20:24:59] agentrickard: What sort of UI improvement did you have in mind (I was reading the log)?
[20:25:16] "Many grants simply reimburse you after the fact for expenses"
[20:25:29] moonray: see the Minnesota UI report
[20:25:44] Where can I find that?
[20:25:53] but remember, what I have in mind doesn't really matter
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[20:26:21] I know, I was just curious :)
[20:26:28] http://www.google.com/search?q=miinesota+drupal+ui+report
[20:26:37] yhager: is the kdi think still kicking?
[20:26:42] thing
[20:26:49] Ah, ok, now I remember what you're referring to :)
[20:26:51] in what sense>
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[20:26:59] agentrickard: My issue with money was more towards the process the grant approval, and money is only linked to it.
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[20:27:09] got it
[20:27:19] moonray: yeah, that big study from DrupalCON
[20:27:46] linnovate: we're on in the chat room until 5 (my time). that's 33 more minutes
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[20:28:29] cool I joined late (but had a great soccer game :) )
[20:28:37] well the process is: Drupal community (KDI) says to Knight Foundation "we like yhager's ideas"
[20:28:48] then we wait for Knight to reply
[20:28:59] which should be a monthly review on their end
[20:29:13] I like yhagers ideas as well (I've worked with him alot) :)
[20:29:14] so, in a sense, KDI is an organizing filter
[20:29:21] which one of them is discussed?
[20:29:38] no idea anymore; just making a point
[20:29:48] oh ok,
[20:30:29] I saw a log of what Zohar (my partner) said regarding mapstractions potential of being THE mapping solution.
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[20:30:42] I think it should be the solution for the "simpler" mapping tasks
[20:31:10] mapstraction aims for the common tasks between mapping
[20:31:14] makes sense to me
[20:31:24] Can you see a situation where KDI likes and idea but knight denies it?
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[20:31:37] any guarantee that Mapstraction won't dissapear?
[20:31:45] * agentrickard still can't type today
[20:32:19] yhager: yes
[20:32:22] I still think there is space for good ol' gmap module because it aims to cover much more the mapstraction will.
[20:32:26] we should expect that
[20:32:47] mapstraction is backed by several bug companies and was "all the buzz" in the latest where-2.0 conference
[20:32:55] by the way, I went to find this link earlier, but my db was down. http://ken.therickards.com/2008/05/15/knight-news-challenge-grants-annou...
[20:33:14] this explains some of why KDI is separete from News Challenge
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[20:33:23] linnovate: cool by me
[20:33:37] why would that happen? If the community loved it, and I believe that you will make sure it is in line with knight's goals - why would it be denied?
[20:34:11] impossible to say. but it will happen, I'm sure.
[20:34:30] agentrickard: http://en.oreilly.com/where2008/public/content/home
[20:34:41] thx
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[20:34:53] yhager: in some cases, it may be that they are already funding somethign simialr
[20:34:56] similar
[20:35:18] or our financial review wasn;t as strong as theirs
[20:35:34] or maybe we really think we need $200,000 to fund CCK
[20:35:42] and they won't pay that much
[20:35:46] but maybe something similar in essence might be totally different if loaded on top of Drupal platform..
[20:35:53] true
[20:36:12] I think in some cases, Gary and his team are looking for open versions of current platforms
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[20:37:12] So once in the issue queue, is there some interaction with knight before the final decision, or a chance to defend the project, or make some required changes?
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[20:37:39] yes
[20:37:49] I would think so
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[20:38:15] this is designed to be collaborative, and getting Gary or Jose to give feedback early would be good
[20:38:25] I just asked Jose to comment on the first two proposals
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[20:40:52] Gary == Gary Kebbel, Knight Foundation Journalism program officer
[20:41:05] Jose == Jose Zamora, the Knight lead for KDI
[20:41:16] this whole thing was Gary's idea
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[20:42:04] do I need to convince knight that my proposal is related to journalism, or being part of drupal, this is implied?
[20:42:33] don't worry about journalsim; that;'s a different program. Worry about "community"
[20:42:48] which is stated in the Drupal mission.
[20:43:01] great. I feel I took over.. I got answers to most of my questions. Thanks.
[20:43:11] * yhager stepping aside..
[20:43:23] i'm sure other people had the same questions
[20:43:38] and I have refused to answer questions via email, so having a public forum is fine.
[20:43:47] (now we have a chat record)
[20:43:58] anyone know where this gets logged?