I'm giving your group this little rant because, well, I got some replies to my first post here. At least I know someone is actually reading them.
I've been trying to set up a Drupal site now for seven weeks. Please, call me an idiot. Because I fricking feel like one for trying to use Drupal. If it is Drupal's goal to create such an arcane piece of software that requires several years of practice and apprenticeship to even build a functional site with, then congrats, you have reached a level of alchemy that was never thought possible in the Dark Ages. Why should anyone want to learn Drupal and in the same amount of time they can learn ASP or PHP and build a custom solution.
I came to Drupal because it seemed to have a large body of contributors, and was well regarded. Now, because of all the contributors, and their contributions, I have to learn Panels, views, page manage, context, fields, relationships, organic groups, hooks, nodes, tpl files, content types, custom content panes, etc, etc, etc.
You people who have been with Drupal for years can probably add to you vast knowledge of Drupal without any problem. But, a new user, forget it. And if Drupal is just a gimmick to lure people into a lifelong commitment, from which they have to end up paying someone to add some relatively simple functionality, then you can forget that to. Because a custom solution is going to out perform Drupal any day of the week.
I'm really disguested with Drupal. I wanted to have a working site on July 1. But that didn't happen. And what I have is so lame that I'm considering not even making it available to the people who were interested in it. In other words, I can't deliver, because I can't make Drupal deliver.
I hope D8 is even more complicated and has even less support.
Please, call me an idiot. I know I'm in good company with all the rest of the people who haven't been able to incorporate something into their site, or upgrade their site to D7.
And to all the people who have contributed to Drupal, Keep up the good work!
Comments
Nice point! you remember me
Nice point! you remember me of my first days with Drupal, but I wasn't so angry :) well to be honest I didn't use panels in my first year, nor the second and third, I began to use panels in my fourth year of Drupal. I don't know what site you are trying to build, but it seems a big site, don't forget big sites require hard work. I've worked with so many PHP frameworks, RoR, Java, don't think there is an easy tool for a big project. The point I want to get to is, whatever you want to do in this life if it's a big task, it'll definitely need hard work.
From the opposite side (the beginners' side), you are right, Drupal is known to be hard for beginners, there is an ongoing work to make things easier, such as theming.
So, to get something useful from this post, why not posting a list of things you want to see in Drupal or wish they were easier?
Re: rant
I never in my life used Drupal until February 2011, when I downloaded Drupal 7. Yes, there's a learning curve, but there is a learning curve on all things that have power and value. I have five drupal sites up and running. Each component to drupal is a building block. I know what I wanted, then found tools to accomplish that. Even simple things like robots.txt can be handled with drupal, but admittedly differently than just a normal site.
Drupal is not about being an idiot, but it is about being patient, focused, and not being overwhelmed. The result is tremendous power and flexibility. The advantage of Drupal is the community. People are happy to help get you going. They are not happy if the request is in the form of a demand.
If power and flexibility are not important, then certainly there are easier ways to get a website up and running.
In terms of a frustrated new
In terms of a frustrated new user rant, it actually isn't that bad. I understand your frustration and can assure you that most people around here have had to learn something new and difficult in relation to Drupal.
I don't have a solution for your problem, but here are a few things that you might want to consider.
Keep up the effort! Hard work pays pays great dividends.
Hehe.I am a beginner too.
Hehe.
I am a beginner too. But!
Have you seen the Drupal learning curve?
Few points:
1. Drupal is complicated not because it it's aim to be complicated but because of its abilities.
2. It's practically impossible to make good web site with Drupal not to spent much time with it's learning.
3. It seems like you want in "I suck" treshold stage make Facebook :)
4. Drupal is not the best platform for every choice. Drupal can be blogging platform but it's much easier to make good blog with wordpress, mainly created for this purpose. Drupal can be much greater then just blogging.
5. If you have problems with some aspects of drupal - face them and ask in communities, you will find people ready to help you freely with advice. But you have to do the same for other people like you if you want to be a part of community.
6. Drupal is not the technology. Drupal is the community of people passionate with technology.
It's your choice what to do after reading this. My choice is to structurise my current knowledge and find ways of sharing best learning tips I found for myself with others.
Have a nice day, nakins.;)
RE: Rant - UglyThread
This is turning into an ugly thread. Why not take this offline.
Re: ugly
I don't see anything ugly about it at all.
I suppose beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
resources
Here are a couple of resources for those who have the desire --
http://REMOVED.com/open-source/drupal-7-first-look.html
You should check out this site - tons of learning here.
Also, I found this to be useful -- http://learnbythedrop.com/beginners-guide-to-drupal
There exists just an overwhelming amount of free resources, above what the community offers. The burden is always on the user, though. Each person must decide for themselves how much discipline they are willing to give in order to master a new technology. Nobody can actually do it for you, but almost everybody is willing to lend a hand.
I think it's not very polite
I think it's not very polite to the people who wrote this books or made videos.
There are tons of free resourses, like archive.org
Re: not very polite
What are you talking about. Learn by the drop offers a variety of free videos, and so do a lot of others, and they advertise them on Drupal.org.
And REMOVED.com is no pirate site, as far as I know. It's all over the place in google, that's where I found it.
archive.org is cool too. I don't think one is any more polite than another.
I didn't say nothing about
I didn't say nothing about Learn by the Drop. It's great source.
But REMOVED is a pirate site. You do not pay for books when downloading them from filehostings linked there. Or you do? ;)
Re: didn't say nothing
Quite honestly, I don't know. I googled for any reference to REMOVED.com being a pirate site, and couldn't find anything. I would like to know.
They sure aren't hiding things, and there is no obfuscating peer-to-peer sharing. It's in the open. One would think that it would be like music download sites - lawyers pounding on the door.
Not only that - everything that you do download is plainly marked - 'download from REMOVED.com'
This does not sound like a pirate operation, and I think you're mistaken.
free is not a dirty word
Look at the site regarding drupal 7 book referenced:
Book Details
What pirate site do you know that practices full disclosure?
p.s. - drupal is free too.
[Edit: We don't need to be advertising pirate sites, nofollow or not]
That looks most certainly
That looks most certainly like a pirate site. I don't think that merlinofchaos or tom geller give away their new books. Also, a lot of links end up in ..book removed due to ...
Maybe you're right
REMOVED.com offers, for instance, Drupal 7 Essential training. It clearly shows the file is coming from REMOVED.com.
So, off I went to hotfile, and below is their published policy -
If it is a pirate site, I just didn't know. I can't find evidence of it on google, but that doesn't mean much. I don't go to pirate sites - but I have been to music download sites before, and I could pretty much tell that RCA music wasn't authorizing downloads. I suppose I'm naive.
HOTFILE INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY POLICY
HOTFILE COPYRIGHT AND DMCA POLICY
HotFile is a service provider under the Digital Millennium Copyright Act, 17 U.S.C. section 512 ("DMCA"). HotFile has adopted the following policy concerning copyright infringement in accordance with the DMCA and copyright law. Hotfile will respond promptly to claims of copyright infringement reported to its designated copyright agent. It is Hotfile's policy to: (1) accommodate and not interfere with standard technical measures (as defined by the DMCA) used to identify and protect copyrighted works; (2) disable access to or remove content that it believes in good faith may infringe the copyrights of third parties; and (3) discontinue service to users who repeatedly make such content available or otherwise violate HotFile’s Terms of Service. Please do not abuse the HotFile service by using it to distribute materials to which you do not have the rights.
How to Report Infringement
If you are the owner of any exclusive right under copyright laws, or are authorized to act on behalf of such an owner, and you believe that a copyrighted work is being used or provided through the HotFile service in a manner that constitutes copyright infringement, please send the following information to HotFile's designated agent:
To submit your notice, click here to send it to HotFile's designated agent, or send it by postal delivery to:
Constantin Luchian
1007 N. Federal Highway, Suite 240
Fort Lauderdale, Florida, 33304
United States of America
Fax: +1 954 414 0865
If HotFile's designated agent receives proper notification, or if HotFile comes to believe in good faith that content available through the HotFile service may infringe copyrights, it will remove or disable access to the potentially infringing materials as soon as reasonably possible. HotFile will also promptly notify the member or user who made the content available through the HotFile service that the content has been removed or access to it has been disabled.
Special Rightsholder Account
If you are the owner of copyrights in works that have been made available through the HotFile service without your permission, or the authorized representative of such a copyright owner, and you have given or may be required to give repeated notifications under the DMCA with respect to such material, you may request a Special Rightsholder Account.
Using a Special Rightsholder Account, you may remove or disable access to materials made available through the HotFile service by submitting the URLs for those materials through your account. If you use this process, you are not required to report infringement as specified above. Submitting the URLs will result in prompt removal of or disabling of access to the content associated with those URLs.
By submitting a URL using your Special Rightsholder Account, you will be representing that you have a good faith belief that the material associated with the URL infringes the copyrights in that material, and that you own the copyrights in that material or are authorized to represent the owner of the copyrights. (Please note that under the DMCA any person who knowingly and materially misrepresents that material is infringing may be subject to liability.)
When you submit URLs using your Special Rightsholder Account, a notice will be sent to the user who uploaded the affected material, and that user may submit a counter-notification, as provided for by the DMCA and this policy.
To request a Special Rightsholder Account, please send an e-mail HotFile's designated agent at abuse@hotfile.com, or by postal delivery to:
Constantin Luchian
1007 N. Federal Highway, Suite 240
Fort Lauderdale, Florida, 33304
United States of America
Fax: +1 954 414 0865
Include in the subject line of your e-mail or your postal correspondence the phrase "Special Rightsholder Account."
ebook is definitively a pirate site
It's a pirate site, period.
They list Drupal 7 Essential Training. Either I or lynda.com is the copyright holder of that work. (I'd have to check my contract.) Neither of us gave permission for distribution through that channel.
QED. Proven. Discussion over.
Tom Geller * Oberlin * San Francisco * TomGeller.com
Author/Presenter, Drupal video series at lynda.com
Creator of materials for Drupal-focused companies
Re: pirate sites
Tom, I did download Drupal 7 First Look. I honestly did not think it was a pirate operation, because it did not look or feel like one to me. Fortunately, I did not download your book.
You know, I just now googled for Drupal 7 Essential Training ebook. The first 3 pages of google results has every result with a link to your book. I don't know what to think. My wife wrote three tech books, graphics oriented, and I know the time and effort that went into it for a relatively small return.
Years ago, I thought nothing at all about downloading music. I joined LimeWire and went to town. I still have some music from that time. Typically, I now get music from amazon.com.
My desire is not to be a thief. So I avoid it. I have admitted to some naivete and it's true, or I would never have posted a link on a drupal site to steal a book from a distinguished drupal author. I apologize to you and to everyone.
Still, the problem of digital material remains, and probably won't go away anytime soon. I remember reading an article not long ago where Prince saw a YouTube video of a dancing baby - and the baby was dancing to a Prince tune! He set his lawyers on this mother for uploading this material without permission. That's over the top in my mind.
I do not know what the answer is, but I promise you it is not my desire to be part of the problem.
Sincerely
Robert
Thanks for the thoughtful
Thanks for the thoughtful reply. It's a much bigger discussion, obviously, and not one I generally spend much time on. My point was to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that that this company pirates copyrighted material.
Tom Geller * Oberlin * San Francisco * TomGeller.com
Author/Presenter, Drupal video series at lynda.com
Creator of materials for Drupal-focused companies
It's not such an ugly thread
I've seen far worse treatment of newbies on other boards. I agree with nakins that Drupal is tough to learn. I tried back from version 4.7 through 5.x through 6.17-19 and now 7. At the end of the day, while I still don't feel I know anything, I must admit I know more than I did before. I especially like how D7 includes in core a lot of things we used to have to install modules to achieve.
The Drupal documentation is also becoming better. It's easier to see the version compatibility of the modules now than when I used 6.19. There is still more work to do, but it's a lot better now than before.
It will keep being so. So hang in there.
I would add a few more +1 to this comment
I feel like a noob every day I use Drupal and I've been banging away at it for over 5 years now. But I too know a lot more than I did when I began.
Rewards go to those who persevere.
Cheers
https://coraltechgroup.com
...
I used to volunteer in search and rescue and two of the most common human foibles you encounter are people over estimating their abilities and under estimating the challenge, whatever that may be - climbing a mountain, swimming across a lake etc etc. I think this is a case of both - you massively underestimated the challenge and lacked the prerequisite web development knowledge to up-skill in a very short space of time, and now, somewhat defeated, you lash out. Its understandable. Not cool, but understandable.
The site build you are taking on sounds absurdly complex for a Drupal beginner and unfortunately I see this kind of rant all the time, however I am not really sure what we can do about it. Yes we can try to make contrib modules easier to use (Views just went through a major UI upgrade), but being an open source project we can't force anyone to do anything - its open source! We work very hard on making core easier to use, more accessible, more scalable and as fast as possible - believe me when I say we rant about these things all the time in the core issue queues.
So no, you are NOT an idiot, you are frustrated and angry that things didn't pan out as you planned. I can sympathize with that. Stick with it though, when things do start falling into place you will wonder what all this fuss was about, because take it from a seasoned pro - Drupal is totally worth sticking with in the long term.
Well said!
Well said!
Thanks Jeff, I think I'll
Thanks Jeff, I think I'll start working on a custom cms solution now.
O_o
O_o
master your tools and materials to achieve harmony
No matter which path you take, master your tools and materials to achieve harmony. I once watched a Japanese carpenter build an excellent door frame with a few hand tools. In my hands, those same tools would have produced a wood butcher's folly. Before you start building a custom CMS, checkout the alternatives http://www.cmsmatrix.org/ and some frameworks like Symfony http://symfony.com/
postscript
Whenever I read debates about software platform pros and cons, this image comes to mind:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Blind_monks_examining_an_elephant.jpg
Totally. This rant reads like
Totally. This rant reads like saying "I got a mac and now i have to learn illustrator, numbers, indesign, pro tools, bash shell, safari all at once!".
Drupal has a massive contrib library - most of the things you mention are not actually part of Drupal but things fans have added on. Try adding the kind of functionality you mention in Wordpress, or any other CMS, on your first attempt, with a deadline to meet. It feels like you are expecting Drupal to be some kind of Dreamweaver-esque "click and website comes out" - not gonna happen.
use Drupalize.me or Lullabot
use Drupalize.me or Lullabot videos to learn Drupal fast! Guaranteed!
Hadi Farnoud
فروشگاه ساز | ایمیل مارکتینگ پاکت
Yes steep learning curve ... but sooo worth it
Yes, I felt like you at times too, and still do at times ... trying to get my organic groups web site to work caused grief, but now it is beautiful! In the beginning I could not even get a simple site running ... but the community is great, and I have found help, and correction there. Keep persevering, but maybe not for a site with an immediate deadline. I love what I am learning to do with Drupal and I am just at the beginning. I find Earl Miles and Lynette Miles book "Drupal's Building Blocks" (sub heading "Quickly Building Webv Sites withy CCK, Views and Panels) invaluable.
What helped me most
I'm also new to Drupal and experienced a lot of frustration as well.
When you have a big commitment to build something and getting through those frustrations is something you just have to live with, you need to set things up to work for you. Here's what I did:
I learned having a deadline only added to the pressure so it was the first thing to go.
I bought the Using Drupal book written by some of the Lullabot folks and it helped a lot of things click into place. It's for Drupal 6.
I spend a fair bit of time using searches. Sometimes the answers are there but we don't know how to ask the questions. Keywords are important in Drupal.
I pay someone to help me. It's only a few hours a month but it helps me a lot. Someone who knows more than I do and who guides me through those frustrations is well worth it.
Unnecessary challenges of almost-beginner
I'm not a coder, and acting in Internet for 11 years, mostly using Open Source technologies, and actively participating in communities, of course. Less than year ago I came to Drupal and I am fascinated!
From my experience I know that carefully thought out site costs hundreds working hours. No problem. Within less that a year I have moved some of my sites to Drupal, and now have 5 sites working and another 4 in development. Building even complex services for endusers is often a pleasure, thanks to lots of components and mechanisms.
However (:-)) I see also a lot of inconsistencies. Most of them seem to me coming out from not clear strategy of integration. Let me explain briefly what I mean.
The power of Drupal is its modular nature. But the general requirements of such concept are not aways met.
Many infrastructures and important modules have no enough "interfaces" to smoothly integrate with the others.
Examples: the great Views are too much "closed" - they don't expose query results to other mechanisms easily. For example to the Rules. Great Feeds produce feed items too less "remembering" the source and the Owner feed peculiarities (for example it is impossible to display "all" feed items from particular Owner feed in the block in the context of one feed item actually displayed).
On the other hand there are infrastructures going "against the stream" and are too integrated internally instead of being modular as much as possible. Examples are really great Media module, or earlier SW Tools - both require a lot of stuff to work properly even if one needs only few.
Incomplete overlapping of functionalities is probably the most frustrating drawback of some modules. For example using great Display Suite one can get almost the same visual effect as using Panels, and both can get similar results as Views. However, not all elements are interchangeable. So we have no complete compatibility in "anatomy", which would be great when having different "physiology" of these three great infrastructures.
Unclear distinctions of the functioning of some things. Great example is Chaos Tools Suite. We have Panel Nodes, Panel pages, custom content panes, system pages etc. in the Panels Dashboard. In the other place we have custom Pages. There is no clear documentation or instruction what is the purpose of each and how they work. I was in panic when saw the "Variants" for the first time ;).
Some general concepts seem false or not elaborated enough to me as industrial engineer. For example tokens are extremely practical, however the concept is dangerous as it leads to theoretically infinite tokens' tree. Now we have a kind of crisis in the subject of Field Tokens... The other example is the concept of Entity. Very very promising, but still not clear what are the purposes in every level of Drupal's architecture. Also here is the danger of infinite notions of categories of categories of... categories of Entity.
BTW now some problems arise with identifiers (entity ID vs node ID etc.).
Last but not least the documentation. Example: as many site builders I am not a PHP coder, but quite well familiar with CSS. In many places I found the form to input own CSS class. I tried, without success. I don't know how to deal with them. One complete example would be very useful.
There also should be a strict rule for themes' builders regarding custom CSS. I understand that site wide custom CSS is impossible, but each theme has to have custom.css file registered in such a way that browser reads it as the last one.
I hope the above will not be considered as an awful rant :-)
AndrzejG - these are all
AndrzejG - these are all really great points, constructive ranting is always welcome!
The main reason so many things don't necessarily integrate well is because often they have sprung up in parallel to each other. 4-5 years ago there were at most a few hundred contributed projects and you could keep track of all of them. Now there are thousands of them and many module authors won't even be aware of similar modules. So integration tends to be done after the fact (for example you can actually use display suite with panels now - I thought they were mutually exclusive but this was apparently a myth).
With panels, ctools and similar, a big reason why these tend to be confusing is because they are explicitly making up for deficiencies in core (for example the blocks system which hasn't seen a proper refactoring for many years). The general answer to this is adding better infrastructure (not necessarily all the functionality, but at least some of it) to core to support things like that - the web services and context initiative for core is hoping to do at least part of this. This takes a long time though, and even things in core breed inconsistencies (the entity system in Drupal 7 was an almost accidental creation of having Field API in core and we knew when we put the initial API in that we wouldn't have time to convert everything else to it).
On tokens going out of control, potentially entities going out of control (this is definitely happening with fields already), I reckon that's part of the process of figuring out where the barriers are for these things. For what it's worth the token API in Drupal 7 has many less performance issues than Drupal 6 did - so it is partly trying to reign in the worst offenders, partly trying to optimize these things so that they can handle being abused a bit.
I will try
Thanks, catch for Your kind reply.
So, I will try to find a place to help in making more order in integration issues (as non-coder but industrial engineer). Suggestions are welcome.
A good place to start would
A good place to start would be this post - which is trying to unify page/component creation/management in Drupal 8 http://groups.drupal.org/node/160144 - there is a lot of conceptual/interaction work that needs to be done on this as well as code.
Oh yes please do
We need more system architects that worry about this stuff and can help design solutions for them. For this, http://groups.drupal.org/node/160144 is a great place to start.
You're only an idiot if...
you let you frustration and anger do away with all the time you invest so far. If you learn from this obstacle you run into, then you're a genius.
The first 10 times I used Drupal just to test thing out, I DIDN'T UNDERSTAND A THING, it felt like it was a crappy system made for a very specific thing I didn't understand.
The thing is that Drupal's approach to almost everything is VEEEERY different to everything you might have worked to. So I quit on Drupal right away. But once an experienced Drupal user taught me this approach, the learning curve didn't feel so steep. I was never taught how Drupal work, only it's logic, but after I understand that, I found "selflearning" Drupal 100 times easier.
I think that if you don't read a specific beginners guide to understand this approach or somebody teaches it to you, then you will feel like using a hammer instead of a fork to eat your food :P
And bare in mind that Drupal is aimed to do powerful stuff easily and thus it does have an important learning curve. If you want to do a specific thing and theres some software for that specific thing, then Drupal maybe not worth trying. For example, if you only want to do a simple blog, then you should Wordpress, not Drupal. If you want a simple thing, unless you already know how to use Drupal, you might want to try something different, otherwise it would be like buying an electric chainsaw to cut a single piece of thin wood.
true novice
As a genuine beginner, I have been using Drupal for about 40 weeks. I wanted to learn to create a web site for one specific project.
I am surprised to read that some people think it is easier to write a custom solution than to learn Drupal. There must be thousands of people working on Drupal modules and some work on a few modules nearly full time, so literally I would think much of the functionality could not be replicated by a single person.
One thing I think not so new beginners such as myself could do, since we can not write modules, is to help document current modules. I have come to learn that documentation often does not exist because it does take time to do it correctly.
My site does use a lot of resources, I am on a managed server, up from a $10 per year shared host when started, but I am guessing that is because the site has a lot of features, not because it is Drupal.
So while I have a lot to learn, I know my site would not exist without Drupal.
Anyone looking for books, try out Safari Books Online. There is a little known $100 per year option that lets a user read 5 books at a time.
There is a little known $100
I didn't know about that, I'm gonna look that up. Cheers.
Don't give up.
"Why should anyone want to learn Drupal and in the same amount of time they can learn ASP or PHP and build a custom solution."
Excuse my frankness but this is folly. Drupal and its contributed modules has just about everything covered you could think of; incredibly powerful 'views', caching, localisation, custom content, very sophisticated image handling, ecommerce, actions and events, queuing mechanisms and on and on and on. Practically anything you could think of needing has been done. Other people are writing, it, maintaining it and testing it, that's work you or your business don't have to do.
Your job is to learn to put it together, it isn't that hard. I know D7 is out but I still work in D6 and for that two books will really help you get going:
'Using Drupal' from O'Reilly which is a non-programmer's way in and 'Pro Drupal Development' from Apress 2nd edition. And there are so many resources out there, and look on youtube too.
Persist! it is totally worth it.
Few comments
Had a few things to add:
Don't build your own CMS. We tried it once in 2005. Maybe the most painful decision of my life. (that didn't involve tequila)
Drupal isn't perfect, but the community is working diligently to solve as many pain points as possible. There was a great usability sprint in Minneapolis and a lot of great improvements came out of it. Acquia and others spend hundreds of hours remaking the UI for views. It rocks. Don't just rant, do. Document the issues you have. If you have solutions submit them as issues to the appropriate modules.
When you do learn things, help others.
Here are some of our attempts to help beginners, hope it helps:
http://www.leveltendesign.com/tutorial/course/getting-started-drupal-7
http://tutr.tv
Tom
Website: www.leveltendesign.com
Twitter: @levelten_tom
Learn Drupal: Tutr.tv