This concerns people living in the province of Quebec that want to earn their living performing Drupal-related work.
A coopérative de travail is about insuring work for local people (in Québec, for now), e.g. creating local 'JOBS' with all of the benefits of real employment e.g. contractual as well as salaried jobs ... and some other benefits too: employment security (chômage), financial security, collective insurance plan(s), a 125% tax-deduction on money re-invested in the co-op, a say in how the enterprise is run, etc.
A coopérative de solidarité, OTOH, is about grouping together various types of members:
(a) workers (like above)
+
(b) producers
(c) supporters
With either form, our drupal co-op could, furthermore :
(1) Launch a multi-level mentoring program, so that members learn drupal from other members, which in turn get help from their mentor(s), and so-on.
(2) Organize training sessions on specific Drupal topics:
- we poll the community to ascertain their training needs,
- we find the expert that will craft & provide the training,
- we find the place and take care of the logistics of it all,
- we record these training sessions (docs, audio, video),
- we re-purpose these to make them available online.
(3) Similarly organize other drupal (social) activities: meet-ups, code sprints, documentation sprints, bar camps...
- Meet-ups are for informal help and networking among peers.
- Code sprints are intense work sessions lasting roughly a day.
- Documentation sprints are similar but dedicated to documentation.
- Bar-Camps are official public meeting of hundreds of drupal fans.
(4) In the context of the WORK, we could also set up a drupal-based system to track work performed: hours, and quality-control too.
- Hours worked because co-op benefits are a function of this.
- Quality control would be a great way to objectively evaluate
provider's skills, e.g. what the customer/recipients thinks.
- Provider's peers could also evaluate his skills,
especially if/when they work together.
(5) Providers could also AUTO-EVALUATE themselves. Not just in-general as in "I'm good at drupal...". As SPECIFIC as: I know this version of this module...
(6) This tracking system will also track members' shares in the co-op, as well as all other aspects of the enterprise, e.g. open books, transparent management, collective decision-making and agenda, etc. We are in this, together!
(7) Because our co-op will be a bonafide employer, and because we can provide the proper framework of supervision, we will be able to recruit STAGIAIRES: recently graduated experts or just about to be, at a fraction of their cost.. maybe NO cost!
(8) My first goal is to hire stagiaires from UQAM's Ph.D. en Informatique Cognitive. They are expert programmers, plus they know all about expert-systems, artificial intelligence, user-modeling, Semantic Web, and so-on, and so-on. Cutting-edge stuff that would/will make Drupal a cutting-edge open-source platform, unlike any other currently available!
(9) Without going into the details of the above R&D, it suffices to say for now that, as a co-op, hiring these graduates, we could qualify for some R&D funding, to help us pay for these highly qualified experts in cognitive science that are chapping at the bit to show the World what they can do!
With this in-mind, I encourage y'all to contribute to this discussion and I suggest that we have a MEETUP to clear-up any questions anyone may have about my above description of the co-op, to enrich it with some further ideas ... whatever! :-) Who is interested ? :-) No delays involved. We can do business immediately!
Alainf
Comments
Go talk to..
http://www.koumbit.org/
Koumbit...
Koumbit is not a coop but a non-profit.
And as a non-profit they claim to be transparent, but the website does not show who is the team, who are the board members, no annual report, etc.
This coop idea is promising and a coop is one man one vote.
Clarifications
The problem Koumbit has is that it has been too busy doing client work to re-design its main site to make some of this information more obvious.
If tremolo had bothered to look any harder in the 3 hours since his/her/their(?) account was created on drupal.org, for example, by using a search engine such as Google, he/she/they(?) would have found the following:
As to the "etc", I'd be more than happy to find links to publicly available content.
The only point where Tremolo was accurate, is that Koumbit is a non-profit (OBNL) and not a workers coop. That being said, we are operationally structured as a workers coop even if legally we are a non-profit. The distinction being that, unlike a workers coop, there are no shares to be bought/sold/earned and, by extension, we cannot pay dividends or bonuses to workers. If ever we went out of business (which doesn't look likely at this point), we'll have to simply transfer our remaining assets to another non-profit with a similar mandate. However, like a workers coop, all the decisions are taken by the workers in a horizontal, consensus-oriented structure (i.e. no bosses and equal hourly rate) where all the information is accessible and all the meetings are open (even to the public).
I hope that this clarifies things and I welcome more enquiries.
Omar
Thanks!
Thanks Omar for the information, it's all more transparent now.
Federation of cooperatives
I've been working with Koumbit for a few months now, and I can vouch for the validity of Omar's post. Specifically, that Koumbit operates as a cooperative. They have built a number of tools (including a very sophisticated Drupal/IRC-based time-tracking system), and developed a fairly complete set of processes, to support self-management. Furthermore, they organize (very affordable) training sessions, and promote social activities, such as monthly 5-à-7 meetups, as well as the upcoming DrupalCamp.
Beyond just being a cooperative, though, Koumbit maintains a strong commitment to their founding principles. In fact, there have been informal discussions about Koumbit forming a "federation of cooperatives" that share such values, and mutually providing help, resources, access to tools, etc. The non-profit aspect would remain as an umbrella organization, whereas member organizations could themselves be coops. This conversation is only beginning, but I, for one, am very interested in forming such a cooperative.
I would suggest coming by a 5-à-7 and meeting some of the members. They usually occur the first Friday of each month, but will likely be rescheduled next month due to a semi-annual Reflection Day (wherein members review progress on organizational objectives and plan for the coming year). Alternatively, you could come by the offices or join #koumbit on irc.freenode.net.
Cela semble intéressant
Je crois que c’est une idée à explorer. :-)
/* http://www.xmacinfo.com */
Sounds neat
I think the point to Omar's post is that we do have some experience functioning in this way, and would be open to working with or helping a worker's coop get off the ground. We're still discussing how that would work, but if there are serious folks behind this, then I for one would like us to set up a meeting.
Maybe the upcoming drupalcamp in Montreal would be a good time to have a bof on this subject?
Your invitation is more than welcome
I will be among those attending your Barcamp session on this subject. As for sharing your experience, helping our workers' coop to get off the ground, working with us, I am THRILLED. This is a glowing example (aka manifestation) of the Drupal-Way. What a THRILL it will be to work with people like yourselves, to help each other attain our mutual goals. I'm looking forward to it. It's EMPOWERING! :-)
Let's insure our financial future
Thank you for the clarification, sfyn, because I was kinda getting the impression that my co-op proposition was stepping on some toes. I believe OTOH that our roles could be complementary, and I am pleased that my proposition has received some encouragement, and YES i will pursue it. In an upcoming Koumbit meeting/meetup, during the Montreal BarCamp.. wherever and whenever workers like myself ply their trade (e.g. leverage their drupal skills) without any security net. I think that this is one of the key points that distinguishes this co-op versus non-profit, e.g. that we can invest in the co-op in order to insure ourselves a retirement nest egg. RIC shares (125% tax-deduction) are as good as, even better than, RRSP!
To be clear
I don't speak for Koumbit, but neither Omar nor Ergonlogic do either. Koumbit as an organisation has no position on the co-op, but we are generally competition friendly, collaborative. And I personally am supportive of your initiative. I will defintely be at a barcamp session on this with bells on.
Now it's my turn to invite you (and others too)
At the upcoming Barcamp, I am also proposing a session. It's name reveals its purpose: Drupal Workers' Co-op in Montreal. Need I say more? ;-)
P.S.: Don't forget to VOTE for this session when voting kicks in. And, of course, show up when it takes place. :-)
Scheduling and content of my co-op session
Scheduling-wise, I would prefer attending your session BEFORE presenting mine ; because I want us to be good neighboors, help each other, and further our common goals ; and, therefore, I would like to know Koumbit better than I do now, make sure we are complimentary, avoid un-necessary redundancy, etc.
As for the CONTENT of my presentation, I would appreciate some SUGGESTIONS as to what to select, because there is a LOT that I could say, but I don't want to bore you all! ;-)
As Humphrey Bogart is often cited as saying: "... this could be the beginning of an enduring relationship..." ;-))
I think, in my experience,
I think, in my experience, you are likely to get a lot of questions about what coops can and can't do, how they are organised, etc...
The best workshop (non-drupal) on co-ops I ever attended went over the four different legal models available (worker's coop, housing coop, buyer's coop, solidarity coop) and focused on questions about workers coops. They used concrete examples, which helped.
I suggest you split it up: half technical & legal intro so everyone is on the same footing, half bull session about what we would do with such a thing.
Also, if possible, I think we should try and get our respective sessions to immediately follow each other and be in the same room - that way we can hope to have a lot of the same people in both.
Sessions are how long ?
Thanks for the tips, sfyn. Very sensible and therefore helpful. I will indeed structure my session this way.
Pray tell, though: how much time do we have ?
About the BoF
Thank you so much for the suggestion to have a BoF on this subject. It was the first time I had heard of this, looked it up in Wikipedia to figure out the acronym, so I did not know what to expect. As it turns out, it's a GREAT way to cover a lot of ground in very little time. The dialogue was very constructive. Everyone respected everyone's air time. It was quite gratifying and a refreshing change of pace to sitting passively in a conference., as great as these were too. :-) I'm looking forward to our next meet-up(s) on this subject. Meanwhile stay tuned for further information on this subject, from yours truly ... and anyone else who cares to chip-in. :-)
About the coop...
This initiative could create a pool of talented drupal specialist that companies could hire for counsel or temporary help.
Also the coop could train newdrupalers and offer them to become members... creating a growing pool of talent in MTL.
There is plenty of information about coops, the network is very strong in Quebec and offer support, $ and... clients among the coops network.
Réseau C.A.
www.reseauca.net
By Jove, GovernOnLine gets it!
Yes, indeed, we could create and foster a pool of talented drupal specialists for hire. And, yes, the coop could/will train them. But not merely train them; we will also evaluate ourselves, our skills. On an on-going basis, furthermore, because our skills increase over time, in terms of experience, scope (training), etc. We certainly offer membership, to any interested party, as long as they 'qualify' : reside in Quebec province (at least in the short term), are seeking Drupal-related work (salaries and/or contractual), and can therefore benefit from the co-op's 'services'. Btw, it is really easy to qualify, and it is in our interest (there is strength in numbers). As for information about coops, there is indeed such information, and I can provide y'all with as much printed documentation as you like, but I should point out that we are NOT starting from scratch; there is no need for an in-depth study; the worker's co-op that I'm proposing is already afloat. If we wish(ed), we could do business immediately! There are still MANY things to discuss, and MANY things that we can change, but the basics are in place. Finally, I agree with you that "the network is very strong in Quebec" (none stronger), but Canada is worthy of mention as well. There is some support for co-ops, as one might imagine, given co-ops' benefits for society, but it's mostly in the form of low-cost or no-cost assistance. Co-ops are expected to capitalize themselves, mainly through recruitement, by leveraging the 125% tax-deduction, and of-course by succeeding in the marketplace. Co-ops are not non-profit; they are for-profit enterprises, with the same limited liability that caracterizes corporations. The difference between these latter two is that a co-op's goal is primarily to accomplish its mission (employment in our case), while a corporation's goal is to pay dividends to its shareholders. In our case, we are the workers, the managers and the shareholders, all wrapped into One. Btw, cooperation among co-ops is also a defining caracteristic of co-ops. Thanks for chipping-in, GovernOnLine. :-)
<br>
Line breaks man!
Koumbit coops and orgs session at DrupalCamp
Here's the link:
http://drupalcampmontreal.com/sessions/koumbit-cooperative-and-open-orga...
Yes I realise that the worker's co-op being discussed here would not function as an OBNL - but we also want to talk about networking, sharing, etc... and this would be one good place to get a little face time on these subjects.
Drupal only?
Just wondering if you think this could apply to other related open source communities outside of drupal?
Fred Blauer CA, CA.IT, CISA
http://openacct.ca
Mostly Drupal
Yes, the co-op can accomodate other related open source communities, outside of drupal, as we see fit. There is no need to fence ourselves in. But let's face it: Drupal will be ubiquitous in our co-op. :-)) Do you wish to ask me some more questions? If so then don't hesitate to do so. It's easier to stay focused on people's concerns when answering their questions than it is for me to anticipate what y'all need to know. So bring 'em on! :)
Should be discussed further
I think this should be discussed further; we would not want the organization to be so inclusive that it loses its focus. If training, building a community and furthering development of the software platform(s) are part of its mission then widening the scope could lead to difficulties in setting goals, designing training curricula, agreeing on budgets, etc.
Every open source project has a different culture, and market, and is suited to different applications. Even though I'm very interested to stay current on other projects, I think the organization must be strongly committed to Drupal in order to function effectively.
Drupal will be ubiquitous in our co-op
Quoting myself: "Drupal will be ubiquitous in our co-op". Ubiquitous means everywhere, all of the time, in every thing we do. We will be using Drupal to manage a Drupal-branded business where Drupal workers will discuss and craft Drupal solutions. And, at the same time, remain open to other open source technologies that will complement our Drupal offerings and integrate these other technologies as we see fit. Apache, MySQL, Solr ... come to mind! :-)
Not much of what I've seen
Not much of what I've seen mentioned here seems unique to workers' co-ops.
I wish I attended the BoF so I could have discussed the pros and cons of organizing a worker's co-op further, because honestly, with the exception of each worker being a shareholder, it does not sound much different and may in fact have certain weaknesses compared to for-profit enterprises.
Capitalism works fine, but to each their own. It's not my place to be overly critical, but let's at least present a fair comparison of co-op vs for-profit for the purposes of this discussion.
Co-op = Corporation + Democracy built-in to the core
A coop is a for-profit enterprise, cast as a limited liability corporation.
So I agree with Ryan that not much of what is mentionned is unique to co-ops, e.g. mentoring, training, camps, meetups, hiring interns, R&D tax credits, etc.
Otoh the same could be said of any enterprise, including non-profit enterprises.
== Differences start here ==
Overall aim (finalité):
* corporation: as much dividends as possible for shareholders; limit costs, particularly labour.
* co-op: as much revenue as possible for the workers, (re)distributed according to hours worked.
Each worker/member of a co-op:
* is a shareholder.
* is privvy to all of the co-op's information.
* is able to vote on all important co-op matters.
* can be elected to the co-op's executive committee.
Influence, weight of votes:
* co-op is one member one vote, the number of shares has no bearing.
* corporation: influence/weight is based on the number of shares held.
"For-profit enterprises receive a 100% tax-deduction on money re-invested in the company".
Co-ops get a 125% tax-deduction on money invested in the company. 25% more is significant.
Each member of the co-op is a shareholder but investing in tax-deductible shares is optional.
It is up to each member to decide whether they would prefer to pay taxes
or invest-in (loan-it-to) a project they are a member of ... and get it back 3 years later.
In a corporation, anyone that holds 51% of corporation's shares seizes CONTROL of it.
Takeovers, hostile or not, are not possible within a co-op; it's always a matter of body count!
Takeovers frequently fire many of the employees.
But in a co-op members cannot be fired without due-process.
It requires the consent of a significant portion of the members (which are mainly workers).
There are established procedures and regulations for integrating new members, firing them, etc.
Yes, corporations can choose to have as many shareholders as they like,
but are these shares predominantly held by the corporation's workers?
What guarantee do the workers have that they will always be the majority?
That they won't be overwhelmed or bought-out ?
What's to prevent CEO/etc, especially after change of management, from changing their mind about being "smart" ?
Again there are established procedures (and laws) for this when operating as a co-op.
If your "smart" corporation designs and deploys its own custom democracy, then it will in-effect be re-inventing the cooperative form of enterprise, aka reinventing the wheel, and I for one don't want to waste my/our time re-inventing something that has been around for several decades, has a proven track record, and is clearly defined (in legal terms). I would rather dedicate my time & efforts to collectively elaborating what we want to do : our products, our services, our marketing, our strategies for the future, and so-on.
Yes incorporation is relatively easy to set up, but there is nothing easier or faster than "already done".
These formalities have already been hurdled. We are a registered co-op. Everything is in place to do business immediately.
QUOTE: I wish I attended the BoF so I could have discussed the pros and cons of organizing a worker's co-op further, because honestly, with the exception of each worker being a shareholder, it does not sound much different and may in fact have certain weaknesses compared to for-profit enterprises. (...) let's at least present a fair comparison of co-op vs for-profit for the purposes of this discussion.
Because this discussion is about a workers' Cooperative, and because you are suggesting that our approach may have weaknesses in relation to your preferred approach, I respectfully assert that the burden of proof rests upon your shoulders, Ryan. Make the case for your option.
== Co-op only benefits start here ==
* We are represented by the CDR (Coopérative de développement régional) when dealing with government, courts, etc.
* CDR offers free and low-cost services to help co-ops in many ways.
* We are part of their directory of co-ops, and co-ops are expected to cooperate amongst themselves, when they can.
* There are sources of funding, and other assistance, that are designed for co-ops only.
* The current maintainers of this project are well-versed in co-op laws, procedures, etc.
* Democracy is built-in to the core. No need to reinvent one for "smart" corporations. Influence based on the number of shares may be inherently un-democratic (arguably so).
* Incentive to perform additional work, for free, because profits are distributed according to hours worked.
* A co-op can easily integrate organizations like Koumbit, as full-fledged MEMBERS of the co-op,
and therefore as significant actors that share our information, express themselves in our meetings, vote on our resolutions, etc.
Strategic alliances among corporations exist, but rarely last very long, and more-grievously must be negotiated on a case-by-case basis.
Co-ops otoh are already designed for this in core. Organizations like Koumbit are full members with well-defined boundaries; no negotiation required.
Open source is not a democracy
If such a level of democracy was so valuable for the organizations building Drupal websites, I would suggest we would see more of it in practice, whereas now we don't. That's why the burden of proof lands at your feet, not mine.
As it stands now the extreme minority of Drupal shops operate with more than 25 staff, and most recognize the value of consensus decision-making at some level, and that seems to be enough. Compensation comes in many forms, and given such complicated tasks and decision-making processes, I'm not sure there are good precedents of success for your model. Open source itself is NOT a democracy:
http://www.itworld.com/open-source/101641/open-source-not-democracy
Before pursuing the Co-op route, may I suggest barking up a different tree. The secret sauce you should be looking for here is what combination of group stake, compensation, and performance review combined are the most efficient for building websites. To me this is far more valuable than share ownership of a potentially impotent organization. Sometimes tough, top-down decisions must be made, and who are you or I to claim to fully understand what best motivates others. If you find evidence that the most efficient organizational structure is indeed full worker share ownership and full democracy across the organization, all the power to you and I'll be the first to sign up. But I haven't seen it yet.
Best of luck.
If the wheel was developed by a committee
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OORnMYoWX9c&feature=player_embedded
Fred Blauer CA, CA.IT, CISA
http://openacct.ca
Voting is not that granular
Voting in a co-op is not that granular. We won't be voting, for example, on how to code something. We only vote on important issues related to the enterprise, our mission, our goals, our strategies, etc. When it comes to working on software, we will form small teams that will autonomously get the work done ; and if these teams need our help, we are there for them. Kinda-like open-source is now: one maintainer, a few collaborators, in relation to a community that will use, perhaps even improve, their work once it is released. On a related note, the gist of the co-op is to insure work for its workers, e.g. it is mainly a matchmaking service that matches drupal talent (us) with drupal needs (them). First & foremost we will therefore be marketing our existing abilities. As for research and development it will arise as we devise solutions for ourselves, our customers, and the drupal community at-large. There will be some co-op input into these, perhaps even some voting, because they have strategic impacts, but again the work will be delegated to small efficient teams. Out of flow, but not incidentally, the day-to-day operation of a co-op is run like any enterprise is ; the elected Executive branch is mandated to act quickly and decisively aka efficiently ; voting only happens at scheduled meetings.
democracy != efficiency
I am more or less in agreement with Ryan on this.
The fact is any form of democracy or consensus takes time if it is going to respect the intentions of those forms of governance. More time than a briefing in a hierarchical structure. There are ways that individuals achieve efficiency within such a structure, but the core takeaway, in my opinion, is that any organisation making efficiency a primary goal is going to have a hard time being truly democratic and horizontal while maintaining that ideal. There is a good reason why efficiency is not a founding principle at Koumbit.
Having worked both in more traditional corporate environments as well as collectives, I feel entitled to affirm that large companies typically have huge problems with efficiency, anyway, although those are typically more problems of scale.
That said, a co-op is a legal structure. There is no reason why anything but the most representative notions of democracy (yearly general assembly, elected board) have to come baked into a co-op structure. You will probably notice that those constraints come with any publicly traded company, and are not unique to co-ops or non-profits.
I think the question is what are your priorities. You need to know this. Is it efficiency, is it a high level of democracy, is it quality of the final product?
No matter your organisational structure you will encounter situations where these values will come into conflict, and you need to know what your goals are, and make decisions accordingly.
We do not live in a society that is particularly friendly to horizontal or highly democratic power structures. Getting such things to work is hard, thankless, and whatever inherent stability or redundancy exists in those structures is far outweighed by the fragility of being isolated.
Could get pretty complicated
For example - "* co-op: as much revenue as possible for the workers, (re)distributed according to hours worked."
How do you define hours worked?
Chargeable hours only? How many of those hours got billed? How many of those hours were written off?
Admin hours?
R&D hours?
Marketing hours?
There are lots of hours which are in a grey area. Who decides what is eligible?
Fred Blauer CA, CA.IT, CISA
http://openacct.ca
Not complicated in my book
Not complicated, in my book, because I strongly urge us to recognize ALL hours dedicated to the co-op, whatever the work may be. Work performed pro-bono that helps build the enterprise qualifies too, as does marketing, R&D, admin at the enterprise level, etc. Why shouldn't they? As for who decides, in a co-op we do. It's a matter of consensus. And an important dimension of recognizing pro-bono work is to create an incentive for members to go the extra mile for the co-op, do the little extras that we cannot afford to pay in the short-term; for the noble reasons that motivate such altruistic acts, but ALSO if/when it comes to sharing the profits, e.g. the surplus we may or may not have once the workers have been paid for their billable hours and so-on.
May be a little idealistic
Its nice to assume that everyone is honest, but how would you verify how many hours of R&D that someone spent on something, for example? Keep in mind that this is determining what share of the revenue people get.
Fred Blauer CA, CA.IT, CISA
http://openacct.ca
Share of profit, not share of "revenue"
Each worker gets paid for his billable hours (with "revenue"). All work, including Pro-Bono, factors in to what percentage of the SURPLUS will be doled out to each worker. Surplus, aka profit, is what is left over when billable hours have been paid, bills paid, etc. There won't be much of this, particularly if our policy is to return as much as we can in the form of compensation for the billable hours. So there is not much motivation to be dishonest about it. Furthermore, because there is peer pressure and review of the work accomplished, workers wishing to maintain an excellent reputation won't bloat their un-paid hours. Not incidentally, how efficiently they performed their non-paid work will be a sure-indicator of how-well and how-efficiently they can do it for hire ; and this is where it really counts! :-) As for verifying whether billable hours are not being bloated, any/every enterprise has this problem. The most common solution to this is to work together, at the same time (co-located) ; which we may do, but I think we can also accomodate more flexible decentralized work models ; with some measures to validate and review, keep everyone honest! ... It may seem idealistic to trust that collaborators (friends) will be honest, but otc I think it is commonplace and indispensable. :-)
I joined this group to stay
I joined this group to stay informed about Drupal events in Montreal. Drupal camp was great! I attended Saturday and watched simulcast from work on Sunday and I hope to attend more events in the future.
However I am getting tired of my in-box full of political diatribes about the ideal corporate structure of a software development firm. Maybe a more appropriate forum can be started with this in mind, and keep this one more focused on it's mission - of keeping members informed of meetups and other events in Montreal and Quebec.