Posted by johnvsc on August 26, 2009 at 2:31pm
I think that jamesstevensomni needs to put a "1" in front of those numbers ... if not, then we are doing something wrong!
'Drupal Developer 25/40k | Omni' ??? is this really serious?
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Comments
ha
I was thinking the same thing.
Graphic and Web Design, Drupal CMS, Photography
My Drupal Photoblog
I was actually looking
I was actually looking looking for entry to mid level people.
I assume your a contract I'm actually looking for two of those in London 400 a day, if your interested.
Regards
James
James Stevens
Specialist PHP Recruiter
js@omniresources.co.uk
0207 831 1144
UK £
I assume that if it's in London, it's going to be £, in which case £40K is rather good, and the day rate of £400 is on the high end.
if £40K seems rather good, I still think it is rather low
Here is my point:
As far as developers are concerned, what they do is pretty freaking amazing. Hell, as an artist, what I do is pretty freaking amazing. To this point, just because the Web is ubiquitous doesn't mean that it is easy.
All the time, people are like "Oh, I need a website" or "I want this functionality" or "My cousin Joe had this garbage man whose dog had a website and had all this insert-banal-and-inane-functionality-in-flash-here and I was wondering if you can do it in jQuery." And then I hear the distinct voice of the late, great Crocodile Hunter in my head....
WAIT FOR IT, WAIT FOR IT
"But, um, we don't have alot of money"
Which is exactly what this post said to me... and I'm sorry but if you are working as a developer / themer, you got to understand that this is just a blue collar job for the new century. I mean, where is the United Brotherhood of Web Workers? Do we even have a union-ized option? Let's make Ayn Rand proud!
I mean, Drupal is free and well, um, shouldn't the services be free too? What I think is that because our services are really hard to find, right now, we should charge MORE! Yeah, i said it.
It is always like : Um, we need a PHP developer with insert-whatever-years who know Drupal. Like if you have spent insert-whatever-years working in PHP you, of course, automatically "know" Drupal.
I'm not saying that jamesstevensomni isn't a great guy or anything like that. jamesstevensomni thanks for posting a job on the site (and BTW, I work in NYC for Sony Music ... so I am happy and set ) because really this is for the developers and themers out there... because in about 18 months ... it gonna be different. I mean, look at the difference from DC Spain to DC/DC?
Right now is a great time to understand Drupal: you are a rare bird and a desired one at that. Now is a good time to demand more money :)
Here is a story: I needed some help with a website that I was migrating, I am an artist, so command lines are tough for me. And I couldn't config a server right. So I call up a Drupal linux pal and ask him if he can help me out. I told him, of course, I would pay for his services. he said well, I usually charge about $45 and hour. I said, ok i'll pay you $80... because you are worth it.
In the past, when i worked for an agency i knew that when they sent me out for a gig, they would be double-mark-up my rate to bill the client. (johnvsc shakes fist at the air) .... So , when I bill clients i make sure that my rate is "competitive". Hell, I KNOW a themer who charges $275 an hour for rush jobs!
I mean, that is what I am talking about!
So, I might be sore because as an Artist, it was always assumed that you would be dicked over to some sh-t that other people can't do. The whole consignment idea really benefited the retailer but not the manufacturer.
But really, this needs to stop. We need to start talking about prices in our community. Because our silence will make us poorer. We need to get to a place where the conversation is "Well Ian, that is what Drupal development costs. I mean, if we want a one click solution, we can point you over to WordPress; but I really think that this is what is best for our company."
Being from NYC, the first thing you as some one when you go over their house is, "Hey, so how much you paying for this place". The NY n00bies always look shocked. C'mon, it's tough here, we all are getting soaked... and i KNOW LONDON is SO much CHEAPER than NYC!
So being open about the $$$ exchange might be taboo... so what! You get my point?
What do you think the "rich" people talk about in their country clubs? It sure ain't re-runs of "Man About The House"
I'm just sayin
incredibly well said...
And I can tell you what the rich are saying... technical talent is a commodity... just meat. Use it and switch to something else. I get the same routine doing iPhone development... so, wher eis the DRUPALALER UNION page?
taking the low bucks is tempting sometimes...
Yeah, I'm worth $35-45/hr too. And no one has ever offered to pay me more than what I charge. No matter how good the work is.
As a single parent struggling to keep the lights on, the kids fed and the mortgage paid, when the hopper is empty it's empty. And all the shouting from my soap box is not going to pay the bills. I've submitted several responses to RFPs lately and gotten the "you were our first choice but the price is too high" answer. And frankly, the prices weren't high. they were pretty darn competitive. So far, I've stuck to my guns and stood my ground, but its getting tough. Some of the projects my competition turned out were crappy jobs, but those people who hired them lived with it.
I don't know that I want a union, per se, but it'd be great to even find some themers/developers to exchange ideas, network with, even just have a beer or three and commiserate. I'd like to know what other freelancers/contractors are doing to find that job well to tap into. Seems like the home office situation says to prospective clients "I don't have an office. Try to ream me."
I contacted one of those design/dev companies that sell the super super cheap sites, wondering what their gig was. They were looking for designers. $20 freakin' bucks for a design, and sliced & diced PSD turned into HTML! You'll find me waving "Hot & Ready" signs for Little Caesars before I do that!
I'll be honest. Sometimes I think about selling out for the sake of work. Sad, I know. But the kids are hungry.
I hear what your saying, my
I hear what your saying, my believes have developed from being in the same situation as you. I have had people wanting me to develop for $12 hour working 80 hour weeks. I think to myself “why did I go to school for my BA in computer information systems and Diploma in game programming, when I can make more money bumming for change on the street?”
Anyways if you want to exchange idea's feel free to message me.
ha ha! what timing... just saw this on CL
RE: web design boulder (Loserville!)
Date: 2009-08-27, 8:02PM MDT
Reply to: see below
$15/hr for web design? Get a f**king clue!
May you rot in hell with all the other cheapskates, losers and users!
Then again...YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR!
On the flip side...
Is every designer that can configure a Drupal site worth 70k a year? 90k a year?
$15 per hour/30k a year is a pretty low-ball figure if you're looking for full-time work. But there are plenty of jobs out there for small businesses that can't afford a $2,000 Web site and people looking for supplemental income for whom $15/hr is a fair wage, and some who'd be very happy with $15/hr as a full-time wage. And if there's doubt, try living pretty much anywhere in the Midwest. There's a lot of places where that's a fine income, and while it won't get you a premo condo downtown, it's better than factory work.
-wolfraem
P.S. Just stirring the pot, of course :)
there have been times...
Occasionally I consider a job like that that will at least bring in a steady paycheck. But then I look at my budget and say... no can do! I'd definitely consider some part time work in the 15-20/hr range. That would bring in some regular income and let me still do the bigger jobs... It all depends on timing and circumstances...
first of all, i am glad that
My post is generating really good comments!
I was fearing being beaten down ",but", to quote Otto from Tarantino's new movie "I've been chew out before!"
When the cupboard gets thin ... yeah, been there done that! Too much.
I have a great friend who is an AWESOME decorative painter. He said that he never does cheap work because he doesn't do cheap work. And he cheap job often lead to cheap jobs. Still, money in the bank better than no money.
however, I know how much time it takes to do "a little theme". The evidence is by the cornucopia of free theme we have on d.o!
There are several strategies that I have used to get the price that I worth. The biggest thing that has worked in my favor is an itemized list based upon your experience. Because then, you can go down the list and show the client what you really need to do to set up a site. And then, the result is usually, "oh". If they balk, say "Well, for your price, I will create theme for you. Then, you can install Drupal, set up the database, add the correct modules and create you content types... and it will just work. Ok?"
Because all those things take time, knowledge and experience. remember that most people don't know what goes into a website. tehy haev no clue. so you need to spell it out for them.
Another thing, on free lance gigs, I have a killer excel sheet that I can track my hours and it calculates the profit point: the point at which my hours are digging into my profit. I can estimate a job by looking at past records and say: Damn, all those views took a minute to install at 6 hours to get just right. (the crowd sighs)
Why am I willing to "reveal" these trade secrets? well, because i don't want to get ripped off. I want to raise the price so that we can do quality work.
An educated consumer is the best customer :)
8)~
johnvsc@gmail.com
917.676.0677
Great post!
All very well said and it is time to fight back, quit the spec work and charge what you are worth - and lets talk about money!
We have a minimum budget for design and theme work. Because so many clients want capped budgets we do the same, but instead of a maximum we impose a minimum. This cuts out the low end work and insures we are working with serious clients who want good quality work.
The minimum is 1500 USD. An average sort of payout for a design is between 600 and 1200 but of course it can go much higher. Themers get about the same, and yes for them it is often higher.
My principal task is screening clients and pinning them down to a budget in the first phone call. Its a tad harsh but it works. I have designers and themers relying on me to deliver clients that pay well; its also in my best interest to not waste time with 500 dollar clients.
My tip - don't submit RFP's. Ever. We never apply for work or speculate. Bottom line is that by the very act of submitting spec work or RFP's you enter the price war. Competing on price never works because clients are far too tempted by bottom dollar thinking, even if it means taking a chance, they often will.
I've spent years building my business and working with Drupal and I've done my fair share of cheap themes when the cupboards were looking bare, I fully understand and empathize with anyone in that situation. However, there are better ways of getting work and getting paid a decent amount for your work.
We simply refuse to compete on price, we have other ways of saying "we're worth it". If the prospective client bemoans the price, we move on. Brutal but a fact of life, we need to earn a living to.
BTW, if you are looking for work and are an experienced designer feel free to contact me. We have several revenue streams for both designers and themers (ninjas only please) and regular work available. We also have a supportive community of designers and themers and our own OG groups and regular chat fests in IM.
jmburnz
a sincere handshake !
Ummm well we can all start
Ummm well we can all start doing what I do.
When someone wants me to work for them and they tell me the project idea... if they then are to cheap to pay. (IE: I want this for $12 hourly or the complete site for -$400) If I think the site is a good idea, I just develop the site for myself and launch it. (I think people forget some of us not only have development/artistic skills we also have business skills)
So what I am really saying, we are a community of Developers and Artist, so instead of always looking for work with a company who wants something for free. Why not take there money making ideas and build the products for ourselves?
Because honestly I would rather work with other artists and developers creating our own products and splitting the profits then working for pennies for another company who is going to become rich from our efforts.
Anyways just my opinion. I have two major products I am working on if anyone wants to help. Whether the site is making $50 or $5,000,000 a year, the profits will be slip between the team.
I think most of us have forgotten we are getting paid to make amazing products, then once we are laid off we start looking for companies to hire us, instead of just using our own skills and creating our own work. Yes I know going down this road is scary and hard at first, but just imagine having 10 products making as much money as some of these Microsoft or Facebook or Google products? Don't say it can't be done because we are already doing it.
Taking ideas from clients is
Taking ideas from clients is a tricky and muddy business. Go ahead, but once it gets around that you're a selfish opportunist, good luck getting serious RFP's from intelligent clients.
Yes, some new services are Interweb Cinderella stories -- Mint, for one, built by one guy in a month-ish. Very cool. However, most of those Microsoft or Facebook or Google products require hundreds of thousands, or millions, of man-hours in testing and development.
Maybe a better solution would be providing a firm quote on your services. Simply walk away from bad requests, and your rep goes up and your rate goes up. Louis Vuitton can charge a lot because they don't have a line of bags in every neighborhood Wal-mart, but they don't necessarily have to steal other people's ideas for it.
Microsoft is probably not a
Microsoft is probably not a good example to use when you're talking about stealing ideas. Also if the stories are true about the creator of Facebook working for a company developing an application for them, then quitting before it was done and lunching Facebook (which was the app he was developing)... well then you might not want to use them as an example either.
If you see a good idea, which you are not apart of developing. There is nothing wrong with using that idea to lunch competition. If noone did this there would be no businesses in the first place.
I'll pass
detectedstealth said:
I hope that the greater portion of the people that read this thread do NOT heed this advise!
This particular passage equates theft of intellectual property as business skills. We as developers have a moral obligation not to share or use our client's technologies unless they approve this (usually in writing).
Consider what would happen if a large portion of the developers in the world did what is being proposed here: most clients would have a hard time trusting their developer. The world needs trust to run smoothly. Without it, red tape.
So I hope the developers out there realize that the proposed be "business model is at least "somewhat underhanded" if not completely dishonest and disingenuous.
And an artist would not steal the ideas of others. Is not an artist's passion the development of their own styles and ideas?
Regards, Derek
https://coraltechgroup.com
I agree
Actually, at Drupal Beers last night we were talking about the fact that sometimes we forget that we can actually manifest Internet ideas.... not just implement them.
While developing someone else's idea is tempting, I would never do it.
Usually I say, "Well, when you spend $500 and get a crappy site after 6 months, give me a call and we'll do it right". And, that has worked for me in two cases. But the terms are different then.
It reminds me of another story: someone at work was talking about a beach in the US where, inevitably, some granolas would take their Subaru outback and 4 wheel on the beach. They would get to end of the beach (it was a peninsula) and get stuck because the sand was very lose. The local towing company knew this, of course and would drive out when they heard a car was stuck... so tehy would go out and offer to tow them for $150. The people would say "No, we can do it ourselves" and the driver would say... "Ok, well, here is my number" and drive away. Sure enough, when he got to the outlet, he would receive a call. He would then drive all the way back and say, "Ok, now the price is $300"
Is this unfair?
No, it is smart. It is how smart business people make money. Supply and demand. Right now, supply < demand.
Jump all over it.
In terms of a Union ... I have an idea ... and really, really good idea :)~
8)~
johnvsc@gmail.com
917.676.0677
Don't get me wrong I have my
Don't get me wrong I have my own ideas which I am developing. One of my sites was started as competition to another company because I didn't like the way they did things, now it is becoming the #1 site.
Another one of my products is unique which I still have not seen any other sites have the same features. Targeting the gaming industry using Drupal as the platform.
As for using there ideas, I am talking about if you see an idea for the next Facebook and it is from someone who wants the site done for $500. When you site down and think about the idea you realize it was a great idea. There is nothing wrong with developing on an idea, its not like you have the same thought process of the creator of the original idea you will take it into your own direction.
Well that is a very
Well that is a very interesting thought process you have. Except you fail to realize it is not stealing someones ideas, or intellectual property if you have never worked for them, and if you have not signed a NDA.
If everyone follows what you are trying to say, then there would be no Microsoft/Linux, or Google/Yahoo, or even Drupal. Think about it, what you're saying is once someone has an idea they own it no-one else can develop on it. I guess the guys who seen Unix and wanted to make an OS and developed Linux were immoral. Or Drupal it self is immoral because there are other CMS systems which someone else probably thought of before Drupal came into existence.
On another note if you think someone's idea is good and you run with it, that is not stealing there idea that is creating competition.
NDAs stop you from talking
NDAs stop you from talking about it, and presumably by "never worked for them" you're referring to non-competition agreements. We're not talking here about you overhearing some dude talking about his sweet plan at a bar, you're saying that if a prospective client comes to you with a business plan and a seriously low-ball quote, that you'd take that plan and make it your own.
Doing that is a great way to get blackballed in your sphere of influence or encourage fear of hiring independent contractors, both of which would be negatives. Yeah, you might get away with it, but at the cost of the rest of the industry.
It's dishonest and bad business.
Regardless, if you hear it
Regardless, if you hear it from a client, or you hear it from someone sitting in the bar. If it is a good idea, its a good idea. Keep in mind for something to be a good idea in your eyes you have to also be interested in it.
90% of the ideas I have heard are of people trying to make someone elses ideas work for them. Its not like anyone would take every and all good ideas and run with them. Out of maybe 5000 ideas maybe 1 would sound like the killer idea and strike interest in you.
Also I don't think independent contractors have really anything to do with this, yes we are independent but even large companies take the same process, if they hear a good idea they run with it. For example Microsoft liked Mac's OS so they said they would work with them, instead they studied the OS and released there own version. It is the agreements that stop people from running with ideas. As for "prospective client comes to you with a business plan" I was not referring to this specific of an idea, because every-time I have seen a business plan I have already signed a NDA.
More specificity I am referring to people who post on craigslist/or elance etc.. there idea for the world to see and state they want it done for $x. If you like the idea you run with it.
A good idea is just that
a good idea.
Man, it takes ALOT of work for that idea to be made manifest.... and I guarantee that no two people will execute it the same way.
"now i like nice things, just like you
but i'm from brooklyn and theres sh-t you just don't do
like high posting when you're far from home or
high rolling when you're all alone
now, for most of us, that is just clear common sense
but some cats be livin on sheer confidence"
~ mos def
However, all work brought to me is understood to be in confidence. That is just it. If i over hear someone in a bar, well, that is fair game.
Speaking of which, I heard somewhere of a gaming platform in Drupal .... hmmm I'm not doing anything this weekend.... hmmmmmm
8)~
Woohoo if you're not doing
Woohoo if you're not doing anything this weekend make the gaming platform so I don't have to make it myself ;) Tips it envolves: Flex + away3D or papervision world/game logic editor, and a flash engine that pulls the saved data from the database
:D
Execl Price Worksheet Download
I mentioned above that I created a killer worksheet that I used to keep track of hours and prices. Someone asked if i would post it and, after extracting all personal information, I posted it here: http://www.developmentfordesigners.com/sites/developmentfordesigners.com...
This is an Excel 2007 doc.
Click around. Alot of the cells are linked... so if you put your values, the worksheet calculates it. On of the things to note is the "inflated expenses" sheet. Inflated because any smart business person charges more to items that they know about and have to run out to get.
let me know what cha think.
Also, developementfordesigners is a documentation / resource site that I am working on :)
8)~
johnvsc@gmail.com
917.676.0677
Sweet worksheet
Just started looking at it. It's pretty cool. I don't fully understand the inflated expenses and how everything ties together. Would you be willing to post a sheet with a pretend example already filled in (if you have the time to spare of course)?
Thanks for the tips!
Yeah, Jonvsc. Thanks for the
Yeah, Jonvsc. Thanks for the spreadsheet. Nice way to keep everything in order. also interested in any more info on how you and others handle freelance jobs.
I find the best way for me is still. "Pay me by the hour and change your mind as much as you like."