Drupal, monetary gain, penicillin

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kays's picture

I have a different opinion on what Dokuro says

I think a lot of people in Japan try and rush the the monetary gain of Open Source and lose out on the joy of what it can do for others.

http://groups.drupal.org/node/106964

I think that the monetary gain is actually the key for Drupal to be popular in Japan.

Do you know this story?
Alexander Fleming found penicillin, but he didn't patent it in a hope manufacturers would save the patients in the First World War.
No manufacturer, however, produced penicillin because they were afraid of competition.
Fleming's discover didn't save people's lives.

I explained why the Japanese are hesitant to jump on Drupal in this topic.
http://groups.drupal.org/node/22684

Comments

I will agree and disagree on this.

Dokuro's picture

The core of what open source is meant to do is to change lives. What I meant by what I said in that statement is more of the land grab that seems to happen. And that we have seen happen with Drupal. (Don't really want to go into that here, you can look for posts in the other Japanese group for that).

But anyways, I really don't want to get into a debate about if Drupal needs to do things one way or another way for Japan to love it. What I want to do is get a group going that is fun, that helps people, and the tool we use is Drupal. If Japan embraces it or not, I don't feel is the concern of this group. The members of this group do embrace it, love it and want to use it. Instead of trying to work out what Japan wants and needs, I want to work out what is fun for the community of this group to do, and how we can give back to Japan. There is no greater work than work that changes lives of other people no matter how much you gain from it, at the end of the day when you can look back on your work and see the positive changes it has made on peoples lives, you can't buy reward or respect. Money is paper, change is forever.

So, I don't want this group to focus on the Monetary gain of anything for Drupal really, I want it to focus on the community that can be built and the lives that can be changed by using Drupal. I know my life has been changed by it and other open source software, and I am sure it can happen for more people too. In the end, I think that organic growth will do wonders for Durpal in Japan, but it is not my goal for this group, my goal is just to build something here that is fun to be apart of. If we bring up business talk for Drupal, great. If we help Drupal grow in Japan, great too. But there are people, in Japan, that love Drupal, that use it everyday, that want to get together with other users and learn and grow what they do all day long on their own. And I hope, want to give back.

It is a good post, and nothing against it, I think the Japanese people should thing think about this, but there needs to be an outlet to get away from that worry and just enjoy it. I think I see things a bit more field of dreams style here. If you build it, they will come (just as long as some dude does not say he owns it when he does not :-)....)

Does that make sense?

If Japan embraces it or not,

kays's picture

If Japan embraces it or not, I don't feel is the concern of this group.

Yes, it does make sense, and it's good to know other people's honest thoughts.

Japanese people have tendency to hide their true thoughts, but things become easier for them if they express their true thoughts like Americans do.

Nice

Dokuro's picture

Can't wait to get some cool activities going and workshops.

Don't get me wrong

Dokuro's picture

One last comment, don't get me wrong. I do want to see Drupal grow in Japan. Very much so. I think I just have a different idea about how to make it happen and I don't want the Eigo-Japan group to worry about that over building something that is fun and enjoyable to be apart of. Less drama more community enjoyment.

Kind of the core statement that Drupal is built around, "come for the code, stay for the community".

Hope everyone can feel that and move forward like that, also, I am very happy this has come up at the start of the group! Thanks!

Too often, there seems to be

Garrett Albright's picture

Too often, there seems to be this sort of us-versus-them attitude when it comes to open source software, as if those using it for profit must be by definition perpendicular and divergent to those using it purely altruistically.

In my experience, it isn't that way. I see it more as two parallel paths leading in the same direction, with a lot of crossover points. It's true that most of the time that I'm working with Drupal, I'm doing so for a paycheck. However, occasionally, I'm being paid to produce projects which are ultimately released for free (eg, Pathologic and PIRETS), or to produce patches for others' projects. There's the bleed-over of knowledge, too; the experience I gain by doing this paid work is often put to use in developing my personal projects. Of course, it works the other way; while working on my personal projects in my free time, or reading g.d.o or other sites, I'll discover something which will be useful in my work on the pay job.

So I guess what I'm trying to say is that if someone wants to approach Drupal purely from a profit-oriented perspective, that's not necessarily a bad thing for Drupal, since these people can still make some valuable contributions to the project which will benefit everyone. Maybe that will be useful new projects; maybe patches; maybe just bug reports. It will still be a net improvement to the Drupal ecosystem as a whole, and if it makes someone some money, well, all the better.

One complaint we used to here

jmadsen's picture

One complaint we used to hear a lot from companies about open-source software in general was it was fine for little mom-and-pop sites and non-profits, but it couldn't handle the corporate demands.

I think it is great to make a project that is simply to help people and am not saying the group should change its goals. But remember the corporate world - especially in Japan - tends to play follow the leader with technology. Don't underestimate how much a few projects done for larger paying companies with a recognizable name can do for Drupal, as well, and how NOT have any of those can hinder it.

My Main Reason for this is.

Dokuro's picture

Hey Garrett, My main reason for the group to stay away from the profit aspects of Drupal is because of the general issues that comes with that and the type of people that that attracts. I make money with Drupal. I'm not saying anything against that at all. Just that with the money issue inside a community group brings Drama, and what I would like to see is just a group of people doing what they do in Japan with Drupal and having fun. We really need more of that right now.

I'm just trying to stay away from the past issues that Drupal has had in Japan, and build something positive for the future with Drupal.

I hope companies use Drupal in Japan and sell services that come with that, I just don't see it as a community group concern, not that it shouldn't be talked about either, I was just called out about my post here : http://groups.drupal.org/node/106964 saying:

What I don't want to see. I don't want to see any bashing of people or greed from the projects we build with this group. I think people forget all too often that Open Source software like Drupal has changed our lives, at least me. I think a lot of people in Japan try and rush the the monetary gain of Open Source and lose out on the joy of what it can do for others. Don't get me wrong, I make money with Drupal, but at the same time I give back as much as I can. Now with this group, I hope to do more.

I just know that like me, a lot of people don't have time nor care to get involved with something that brings anymore drama to their life.

So I am just saying, that if people do or don't make money or how they do things does not really matter to us. If some makes money with it, great, if some don't, then fine, the group is here to just be a place for people to connect that use it. But the group itself was not setup to be a business for that group of people.

Hope that makes my words more clear. Cool?

Cool. I just tend to have a

Garrett Albright's picture

Cool.

I just tend to have a bug up my butt about the free software types who think Richard Stallman is the second coming and that commercial software development is unethical. For example, on the GNU web site, they say:

Microsoft is evil, since it makes non-free software.

Just flat-out says it; no attempts at justifying it or anything. Microsoft aims for a profit and protects its IP; therefore it is evil. What a bunch of jerks!

But perhaps I was just taking the bit that kays quoted in the OP to an extreme.

Yeah, I was more pointing

Dokuro's picture

Yeah, I was more pointing towards the issues I see in Japan and making this group fun and as stupid drama free as we can. We all need to work, and we all need to make/do things that people pay for. Quoting me like that w/out quoting the whole statement, I was just talking about issues I have seen that have brought Drupal to where they are in Japan and other groups that have started in Japan. I wanted to get that issue out of the way at the start of the group, that was my meaning. Let's have fun, let's use Drupal, and let's learn. The group is not here to start a company or give monetary value to anyone user. Not that that might not happen for some users in the group. People who speak out and help, I hope good things come their way, I hope users will connect. My goal though, to find cool people in Japan using Drupal. Thats it. Make money how you will and good luck to you.

Microsoft is not 'evil' but....

jasonjohnwells's picture

Microsoft cannot be 'evil' as a corporation is not a sentient being. That is no more logical than it being a 'person' under the law.

Stallman and company are idealistic and most of us can not afford, are unable or not inclined to use only Free Software.

Stallman is also a historical figure in computing. I can't imagine using Drupal without a LAMP stack and without the early example of Gnu/Linux, copy left and communities, Drupal would probably still be Belgian forum software.

I can't imagine using Drupal

Garrett Albright's picture

I can't imagine using Drupal without a LAMP stack and without the early example of Gnu/Linux, copy left and communities, Drupal would probably still be Belgian forum software.

The concept of open source software existed long before the GPL was conceived; see the BSD project. Heck, in the LAMP stack, only the L and M are actually GPL-licensed, and both can easily be replaced by non-copyleft alternatives; the former with one of the BSDs, and the latter with PostgreSQL, SQLite, or many others given the circumstances.

There was a correlation between the introduction of the GPL and the rise in use of and participation in FOSS, but I'd argue there wasn't a causation; FOSS would have risen to prominence anyway as personal computers and the internet became accessible to more and more people.

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