Questioning navigation source order

I probably shouldn't be posting without at least one cup of coffee, but I think the costs/benefits (at least partially) depend on what you are tossing into #navbar. For some it is just simple navigation, for others it could be a wickedly large code chunk for dynamic menuing. Of course the same thing could be said about #header, although I have a feeling people don't get as crazy there.

I have no idea how much benefit is derived from it being below content, but it certainly would involve changes in the CSS for all of my designs. (Not that they would be difficult at all.) I guess, given the option, I think it's safer to keep it below and make sure content is always first.

As far as mobile goes, I think Zen should actually have a seperate simplified template and style set as it's base if we're talking about truely crippled WAP style devices. Of course "mobile" is changing a lot with the iPhone, Nokia N810, etc. So maybe it's just a matter of waiting things out. :)

Search engine optimization. Google and others don't like to see content burried later in the page. The question is really what is considered "later" in the page really.

Like most people, I suspect your "navbar" has only the Primary links in it, thus not moving the content down that much. I would say that on 85% of the sites I work on, I manually move the navbar to be above the content because it can be more reliable that way (as jjeff says, the navbar can fall below content), nicer to mobile/screenreaders (I know screen readers have the skip-to-nav link, but what if they want to hear their options and then go back to the content?) and, in my mind the most significant reason: The navbar is often not designed within div#main. Take a few examples.

Example 1) Primary in the header. Many sites do this and its current setup is not ideal for moving it to this position. You have to undo all the positioning done in css and move it out of #navbar in page. Not the biggest deal in the world, but it still exists as a common use-case problem. (Live example: http://blog.torproject.org/ )

Example 2) #navbar outside of Main. On more complex designs, we can find the site content/sidebars have borders, gradients or a color that is not shared by the primary. While the primary may not be in the header, it cannot be within the #main div. We are faced with the minor problems before, but again, it's not a good starting point. A good example of this would be tabs sitting ontop of the main content.

Zen is designed for this example in mind, which I personally have not encountered much, although I know it is common on many sites and blogs. This design is not made more difficult by moving navbar to be above #main.

I'd love to get the #navbar above the #content. I frequently don't want a navbar of a fixed height, and I find the current navbar's positioning and clearing causes headaches on sites that have complicated css.

I think it's an urban myth that Google will punish a site that has a #navbar of a few links above its content.

I think a tutorial on how to modify the nav would be great. I also think it would be quite helpful to possibly have a place where all the sub-themes we are making could be showcased (like zen garden does!) This way, perhaps we could more intuitively see how things work or different ways to manipulate the theme while keeping the integrity of the project.

I also noticed that the notes, css and regions differ between the Starterkit and the Zen classic. It would be nice to have sub-themes noted by contributors if they have done anything progressive, tricky, or complex so noobs (like myself) are able to catch on quicker.

If you do a tutorial, or beef up Zen in any way, I would be happy to help/add the perspective of someone versed in css and xhtml, but only 6 months deep into drupal/php/zen and perhaps shed light on where documentation still doesn't cover what new users find challenging.