Posted by Veronica-gdo on January 23, 2007 at 9:32pm
[02/26/2007 -- Senpai: I stumbled across this post and felt it was quite relevant to what's going on this week regarding the potential ideas for our drupaldojo.org site. I tagged this post with 'documentation', 'drupaldojo.com', and 'drupaldojo.org', as well as the wide-seeking 'CoffeeTalk' tag. There may not be any content in this here post, but the comments below it are golden for our current state of affairs!]
Veronica deleted the content of this page because it was basically totally off-topic for dojo, but the ensuing conversation in the comments is completely on topic, so keep shooting away.
Discuss!
Comments
Hmmm
Not sure if this is an appropriate place for this or not; but given that there's no other specific forum for posting RFPs, I guess it is ok.
Is the group interested in getting potential "drupal gigs" posted? If someone does this, do they want to make it an "open project?"
http://www.chapterthreellc.com | http://www.outlandishjosh.com
https://pantheon.io | http://www.chapterthree.com | https://www.outlandishjosh.com
Hmmmmmmnn
I'm interested/hungry but not quite a Drupalist yet...There's a forum where one can post requests for paid Drupal services (http://drupal.org/forum/51) but another one can be created here at Drupal-Dojo - brings real-world cases closer to the lessons.
I agree
Lots of people find their way to g.d.o but there's nowhere to talk about Pro services - I think given the fact that most of us here are trying to make money at some level, it would be churlish to avoid this issue. Perhaps a new group for this as Glenda mentions? Again, I'm in agreement with the POV that this could bring the Dojo content closer to real life situations.
Web Development in Nottingham, UK by Kineta Systems / Follow me on Twitter! @NikLP
There is a Cunsulting group
There actually is a Consulting and Business group here on g.d.o (http://groups.drupal.org/consulting) that Greggles linked to earlier. I really feel that that is a better venue for discussing how to make money with Drupal. There are a LOT of real life situations that we can learn from that don't involve payment. I view this as a relaxed learning environment and honestly injecting money and/or deadlines from live, paid projects is a big turn-off to me. Not to mention the headache of figuring out how to deal with the money as a group. (Yes, I know there have been suggestions about just sending it all to the Association but they are not set up for this now, so we can't really present that as an option right now.)
Learn Drupal online at Drupalize.me
I'm not interested in having to sort through Drupal gigs...
...and as Glenda pointed out, a place already exists for that; specifically, Paid Drupal services. Folks needing gigs filled should go and post their needs there, not here.
I think we should maintain the sanctity of the Dojo as a place to learn new skills and to pass those skills on to others. Posting Drupal gigs here would, IMO, diminish the Dojo.
Walt Esquivel, MBA; MA; President, Wellness Corps; Captain, USMC (Veteran)
$50 Hosting Discount Helps Projects Needing Financing
Walt Esquivel, MBA; MA; President, Wellness Corps; Captain, USMC (Veteran)
$50 Hosting Discount Helps Projects Needing Financing
Agreed
We get plenty of traffic w/o the gig announcements :D
Michael Curry
Exodus Development | Drupal and other developer info
Michael Curry
Drupal and Windows Tips
Ditto. Same person posted
Ditto. Same person posted in the E-Commerce group. Maybe such things should be discouraged in Groups in general; unless there was a Group set up specifically for this purpose?
learn one, teach one, do one
Looks like spamination
doh! This poor person can't figure out how to get help. Hopefully there will eventually be something more obvious than a forum buried on drupal.org for people looking for professional services.
http://www.chapterthreellc.com | http://www.outlandishjosh.com
https://pantheon.io | http://www.chapterthree.com | https://www.outlandishjosh.com
I second open projects!
Yes, let us be willing to do open projects, for the purpose of learning.
So here is what we can do:
We make official screen casts, and collaboratively work on putting together the site. Of course we have do document bit by bit. But think of the possibilities?! Where the customer don't have as much money, we have the right to document everything.
The screencasts series could be named: How to make a complete customized drupal site from scratch, covering,
What you guys think?
Regular commercial gigs are not appropriate I think.
Use selected real-world projects as Case Studies
I second morphir's idea. Select particular requests for work that are suitable for the exercise and whose owners agree, as case studies for the dojo.
Only requests for such a case-study gig should be posted to the dojo though - and we might scavenge from the regular forum where work requests are posted when needed.
.
I emailed Josh et al with the suggestion of open development after Dojo #1, but didn't hear anything back :(
I think it would be the best thing if we could spec several types of sites, then build them live. Theming of course is not relevant to this - merely the structure.
Web Development in Nottingham, UK by Kineta Systems / Follow me on Twitter! @NikLP
Sorry!
I must have missed that email. I'll go back and look again.
http://www.chapterthreellc.com | http://www.outlandishjosh.com
https://pantheon.io | http://www.chapterthree.com | https://www.outlandishjosh.com
Morphir and a couple of us
Morphir and a couple of us discussed this on the irc channel - Personally, I think it's best if we use real-world like examples, but not actual real projects. I just fear we'd get deluged with requests, and if it's an actual task it creates all sorts of expectations that would be harmful.
Morphir suggested, and I agree, that we should build and document an example dojo-specific website - track it in a series of lessons from the initial planning stages of what the preliminary workflow should be, then how to set it up with the various necessary modules, theme it, and then test it with the watching hordes.
Drupal Dojo - Thelifeofme.com
Lets create our ultimate courseware
So in that same IRC chat we roughly outlined this "dojo-specific" website. And this also comes back to the documentation ideas we've all been having.
Here's my RFP for the dojo
I want to make a drupal website that is courseware for drupal. The finished product should be a place where beginning devs can go to get a sequential, lesson by lesson course on how to develop in drupal. Complete with
A) A book or CCK for each lesson
B) A sreen/skypecast for each lesson
C) A custom theme
D) A gallery - of some sort - of our dojo-art
E) A forum for discussing the best way to "Teach Drupal"
F) Organic Groups - for us to break into and discuss smaller documentation issues.
G) Search indexable complete with cron-runs and all that jazz.
H) Easily accessible source code for our test code and links to whatever CVS we eventually have.
If we can do that - Make it all play nice together, then I think we will have learned a lot and provided a valuable non existant resource. Cause right now you can teach yourself drupal through the handbooks/IRC - but there isn't a handy source for teaching yourself drupal development other than this group - and I think it warants its own site, built by us.
I would gladly offer up Server space to host that.
BUT - as I stated in that IRC channel - no matter who it is - the client ALWAYS has expectations. No client. No third party. Very strongly against that.
Tresler Designs
CNDP, LLC
Well...
BUT - as I stated in that IRC channel - no matter who it is - the client ALWAYS has expectations. No client. No third party. Very strongly against that.
IMHO learning to communicate well and manage expectations are an important part of being a "drupalist." If we're going to talk about the kinds of skills you need to be a professional, it doesn't make much sense to ignore this aspect. It would certainly complicate the lesson process, but I'm not entirely certain that's a bad thing. Learning to deal with a real-world revision cycle is important.
I'll think more this; have some possibilities in mind.
http://www.chapterthreellc.com | http://www.outlandishjosh.com
https://pantheon.io | http://www.chapterthree.com | https://www.outlandishjosh.com
Yes, but
You don't start in school with a real world obligation. You start with homework that you are obligated to do as a part of your desire for education.
A) There are already half a dozen ideas for 'real world' sites that are strictly for the drupal community - without introducing a third party and whatever expectations they bring to the table.
B) We can impose a real world revision cycle on our own.
C) We certainly have people in this group who ARE hobbyist only and won't want to deal with the 'stress' of a real world revisions cycle
D) If this is a good idea, I'd say its a good idea for a select group (10-20) and not until we've at least covered the basics in lessons once (we haven't even touched taxonomy or phptemplate engine yet and we're talking about deploying sites?, e.g.)
E) Part of the idea of the above site could be to organize those smaller teams - more like a real world development team using the group as primary communication and project management resource. - unless, can you have sub-groups on g.d.o? don't know about that.
Tresler Designs
CNDP, LLC
Sounds like an ideal/essential project
While this Drupal Group is a great forum, providing multiple ways to present/mashup/remix should always a tremendous amount of value.
Plus, in relation to the whole funding/3rd party client discussion, this one IMHO is a no brainer. No clients involved (although the portal could contain real world situations, case studies, actual projects) and (now that it's up and running??) possibly the Drupal Association can be the conduit for donations!?!
Gus Austin
Director of Chaos and Confusion
PepperAlley Productions
What am I trying to do with Drupal?
Gus Austin
open, that is, free, also of customer imposed time constraints
I agree one hundred percent with this, and might even have a couple of ideas also of projects that could be worked on.
But just as the information of the development process must be documented and open to dojos, practically as part of the site, an important part of that development process is estimations and testing process for the series of iteration/spike/chunks of functionality teams of dojos would take on.
If there is no time estimate at all, then there is no seriousness and no learning.
But if the customer role is free to suddenly start imposing time or unreasonable market quality constraints (such as detailed theming, which can form part of the project, but with time estimates in which the dojos have a free hand), then the learning value plummets.
What do you all think?
It looks like we are moving towards a criteria and guideline for open case study projects.
Victor Kane
http://awebfactory.com.ar
Victor Kane
http://awebfactory.com
Open projects - as in available to all?
How 'bout a project like this....
Transform a pre-existing website into a full-blown Hyperlocal Media Network (ala NPR/Public Broadcasting).
* Cover all aspects from planning, development, to marketing and fundraising.
* Learn how to create various install profiles and drupal distributions.
* Produce/provide a rich set of learning materials and courseworks (could be part of a larger learning portal/distribution)
Benefits
* The product (distribution) will be openly available to all
* The completed site would continually create several points of value (attention to fundraising opportunties) for Drupal and the entire ecosystem
Think that should fall within the Dojo Guidelines?
Gus Austin
Director of Chaos and Confusion
PepperAlley Productions
What am I trying to do with Drupal?
Gus Austin
Carefully selected real-world non-pressure open projects
We don't want to discourage people who have a site which doesn't have to go into production just yet, but which could certainly serve as a great open project. But the "owner" or "customer" role of the project cannot exercise time and/or market pressures upon those dojos brave enough to weather the real-world functionality being implemented. Nor can it be a project "behind closed doors", hence the need to keep it open.
But I think that greggles is potentially correct in that any real-world project which has daily production (and hence market) pressures would apparently lay outside the dojo scope.
Live production sites should be outside dojo scope because they exercise real world market (time is money) pressures, even if they are NGO's, apparently non-profit, etc.
The pedagogical value of facing a live real-world site in production is certainly blunted by the time and immediate quality pressures.
Meanwhile, those dojos who would "weather the storm" and feel themselves capable can attempt to take on real projects proposed in the consulting group, or in one of the drupal.org forums. And they can even share some of the more juicy, interesting difficulties they face there. But not if they are of the "help me quick, my site's live" variety.
Victor Kane
http://awebfactory.com.ar
Victor Kane
http://awebfactory.com
wrong location
This belongs in http://groups.drupal.org/consulting
Please remove it from the dojo and move it over there.
--
Knaddison Family | mmm Beta Burritos
knaddison blog | Morris Animal Foundation
Noted below
As noted below, it looks like this person was just posting all over.
I would remove this, except that hte discussion below is interesting and valuable I think.
http://www.chapterthreellc.com | http://www.outlandishjosh.com
https://pantheon.io | http://www.chapterthree.com | https://www.outlandishjosh.com
agreed
I came back to remove it and said "well crud, now there's too much valuable side discussion".
So, I'm editing the original post :)
--
Knaddison Family | mmm Beta Burritos
knaddison blog | Morris Animal Foundation
Perhaps something in-between?
We're a reasonably large city portal in Australia (about 450 000 unique visitors p/m) and are in the process of converting our rather vast hotch-potch repository of self-made and open source apps as well as thousands of static content pages into Drupal.
We had some of the Lullabots flown out here to give us some direction and now we're hacking away. However, there are still so many questions when it comes to the finer details, especially since there are often a whole number of different options.
Maybe people would be interested in solving some of the challenges we face, since it is
a) a real life example that serves a reasonably large user base
b) is a site that merges an online community with a geographical one (think lots of location and events functionality)
c) has already existing, sometimes complex, functionality...meaning there is already something that can be looked at and be discussed
Now to the disclaimer...we're not trying to get some cheap labour here. If we need 3rd party developers, we will contact them directly and pay appropriately. Examples would be made generic enough to benefit most developers in consultation with Josh or other presenters. I'm happy to post a few more details, but if this is deemed to be inappropriate by participants, I don't want to waste anybodies time.
Could we establish some benchmarks?
Very interesting discussion going on. I think there's definitely enough enthusiasm to move forward with at least something. Being there's going to be 500+ members before you know it, I'm not sure we're all going to agree on the same thing. Possibly we could come up with a loose set up benchmarks for what types of projects would be acceptable for the dojo.
Are all real world projects bad? What if there is no 3rd party involved (i.e. it's one of our projects) and everything (modules, themes, documentation, learning materials, install profile/distro) is contributed back the community? What if a 3rd party/client really wanted to adhere to some stringent guidelines (everything must be contributed back, they agree to impose NO time limitations, etc.)?
What about sponsorships and/or other alternative sources of funding? Provide a means for clients (or anyone who will benefit/derive value) to contribute without being able to dictate the agenda. Seems like that would enable people to devote more time/resources to teaching, producing courseworks, and working on a wide range of Drupal beneficial tasks and projects.
Thoughts?
Gus Austin
Director of Chaos and Confusion
PepperAlley Productions
What am I trying to do with Drupal?
Gus Austin
How about this?
One real world project that I would love to see built is a small community portal site. Doing this is the reason I looked into Drupal in the first place but I'm too much of a n00b to try to develop it on my own. It would make a fabulous distro; something quite different from Civic Space, where you could have forums, business listings and advertisements, community calendars and information, and even a place for, say, each local church or nonprofit to have their own pages, calendars, and forums. I imagine it as a one-stop information and social networking source for the entire community. The scope of the project can be kept within a manageable limit by choosing a "smaller" town to focus on with less complex needs (my town has about 25,000 people).
I would be very excited to see this worked on by folks...and it has the potential to be generic enough to be useful to others as well as good learning material for the dojo.
learn one, teach one, do one
Drupal Association as a fundraising conduit?
If/when the Drupal Association is actually up and running (is it?), possibly it could be THE conduit in which to raise funds. It seems clear that a lot of individuals/organizations/apprentices would like to make a financial contribution. As the Dojo will consistently provide a wide range a value for Drupal, I'm thinking the chances are pretty good that the Association, in turn, could provide some support. That would also seem to alleviate some of the potential issues/conflicts of interest if we let clients directly fund specific projects.
Gus Austin
Director of Chaos and Confusion
PepperAlley Productions
What am I trying to do with Drupal?
Gus Austin
The Association is up and running!
I saw it on the 10:00pm IRC news. The association.drupal.org site IS up and running. Woo!
Joel Farris | my 'certified to rock' score
Transparatech
http://transparatech.com
619.717.2805
tutorial project
I would agree with Magdelaine, it would be a good idea to define a project that may well be in line with what a newbie in Drupal might have in mind. It would answer typical questions and be a template for those whose needs are reasonably similar.
But it should rather be what a non-profit organisation might need, for example a local football club or something like that. The resulting system should not be too complicated to understand, configure and maintain.
There is a danger with a project having a specific end-user. They always have unique requests, making the result not really a clean reference for others to use. (Don't get me wrong here, open projects to fulfill specific needs would be highly interesting, and would make good material for the Dojo. But chances are that the attention of Newbie Joe is lost.)
And yes, I happen to be such a newbie.
Payment
The more I think about it the more I like the idea. I think ourbrisbane.com would be quite happy to sponsor some lessons in which we solve real-world problems and results then can be tested in the wild.
Again, this is not a gig or request for help on our site, it's about generic enough situations that would be applicable to most community portal developers.
Regarding the Drupal Association
Greggles referred me to this thread after he noticed a few comments regarding the Drupal Association and its ability/inability to take money.
While the Drupal Association has yet to be "formally" announced (but should be happening literally within days), it is fully setup to take donations. It's an official not-for-profit association with an address, bank account, and the whole works. ;)
http://association.drupal.org/donate will be the place, once the donation form gets a few last minute tweaks. Check back next week.
See also the Donations FAQ.